71 replies to this topic

[Lisa Marx]

Peace to all!!

It's not just that Muslims think Christians are a lost people, but also that Christians do feel this way too with the Trinity. It is confusing and hence could lead 1 to not believe in anything. The question is if the Trinity is divine? Did it come from God or man made and if from God, then why would God cause to confuse his followers when believing in Him and worshipping Him and bringing oneself closer to Him should not be confusing but rather a peaceful and contented experience? Nontheless, there is a post for the Trinity.

It's not confusing at all. There are three parts to God, hence the trinity, however, God is not separated into three parts, he is equally God in all three of his manifests. First God the Father, who is almighty in heaven and on earth forever and ever. Then there is the Holy Spirit, of which God transcends his throne and is emparted to his believers. Then there is the Son of God Jesus, who is equally God, but is labeled son because God came down to the earth as "son of man" through Mary.

[wiseguy]

Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) declare that God is One and Only thus they reject the Trinity. The Trinity states that God is One in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit so the Trinity and the Christians who believe in the Trinity defy, degrade and insult God and the messengers of God. In other word, Trinitarian Christians revere three gods instead of One True God.

Jesus had nothing to do with the Trinity for the Trinity was invented by corrupt and immoral Christian priests long after Jesus was gone. Jesus never says that God is One in Three. He says God is One and Only.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).

Christians have falsely claimed that Jesus is the son of God and God himself. Jesus is not the son of God for Jesus is the son of man and we know that God is not a man so Jesus is not the son of God. Jesus is not God for Jesus is not God's co-equal. According to the Gospels, Jesus admits that God is greater than Jesus so Jesus is not a part of the Trinity. Therefore the Trinity is a false doctrine that insults, degrades and slanders God and His prophets and messenger.

The Trinity is false according to the Bible:

Mark 13:32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. If Messiah was God, he would know that day, that is the End of this system of things. The Omnipotent God knows all things because with him no declaration will be impossible.

1 Corinthians 11:3: Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is YHWH [Jehovah or Yahweh] - Is a man and woman literally the same person? No, well neither is Christ and God, for how could God be head over his own self. Rather God is head over all his creatures including the Celestial Christ.

Mark 12: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is One.. 30 Love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with your entire mind and with all your strength.'

Jesus says "our God" so Jesus is not God for Jesus is a servant of God. Jesus says "God is One". He never say "God is One in Three"!!!

Therefore Trinitarian Christians have slandered , degraded and slandered God and Jesus by inventing the Trinity that denies the Oneness of God.

Evidence from the Qur’an
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A common mistake among people is their thinking of God as a super human being somewhere up in the sky. Then they attribute all kinds of human activity and relationships to God as if He was like human beings. Once it is clear that humans have children, such people conclude that God has children too. But God declares this idea to be false.

God tells us in His Book that there is nothing like Him (see surah 42:11). God also says that there is nothing comparable unto Him (112:4). Surely, God is not a physical being. God tells us:

"Vision comprehends Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision” (Qur’an 6:103).

God declares that those who impute sons and daughters to Him do so falsely and without knowledge (see surah 6:100). The Qur’an appeals to our reason by saying:

“The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child when he has no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things?” (6:101)

This is in obvious reply to those who may claim that God has a literal son or daughter, terms which in human languages mean the offspring of a pair.

Some may say, however, that God can produce a child without having a consort. In that case, you are not speaking of a child but a creature of God. In any case, God declares that He begets not, nor is He begotten (surah 112:3).

Some may say that God has adopted a child. God declares that this idea too lacks reason. Since everyone already belongs to God, what then is the point of adopting? God says:

“And they say: Allah has taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth are His. All are subservient unto Him. The originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: Be! and it is” (2:116-117).

The idea that people should be called children of God is an erroneous one. Why not call them what they are? They are mortals of God’s creating. To those who say, “We are the sons of Allah and His loved ones,” Allah tells us to say as follows: “Why then does He chastise you for your sins? Nay, you are but mortals of His creating” (5:18).

God is not like humans to need children. God declares that He is self-sufficient. He has no need for such things (Qur’an 10:68).

It just so happens that people have a tendency to regard righteous persons as children of God. But God instructs us to call them not His children, but His righteous servants. God says:

“And they say: The Beneficent has taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honoured slaves; they speak not until He has spoken, and they act by His command” (21:26-27).

Edited by wiseguy, 02 November 2007 - 01:10 PM.

[wiseguy]

Belief in God:
(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch3-2.htm#footnote2"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch3-2.htm#footnote2[/url]

Muslims believe in one, unique, incomparable God, Who has no son nor partner, and that none has the right to be worshiped but Him alone. He is the true God, and every other deity is false. He has the most magnificent names and sublime perfect attributes. No one shares His divinity, nor His attributes. In the Quran, God describes Himself:

Say, “He is God, the One. God, to Whom the creatures turn for their needs. He begets not, nor was He begotten, and there is none like Him.” (Quran, 112:1-4).

No one has the right to be invoked, supplicated, prayed to, or shown any act of worship, but God alone.

God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, the Sovereign, and the Sustainer of everything in the whole universe. He manages all affairs. He stands in need of none of His creatures, and all His creatures depend on Him for all that they need. He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing, and the All-Knowing. In a perfect manner, His knowledge encompasses all things, the open and the secret, and the public and the private. He knows what has happened, what will happen, and how it will happen. No affair occurs in the whole world except by His will. Whatever He wills is, and whatever He does not will is not and will never be. His will is above the will of all the creatures. He has power over all things, and He is able to do everything. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, and the Most Beneficent. In one of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad , we are told that God is more merciful to His creatures than a mother to her child.1 God is far removed from injustice and tyranny. He is All-Wise in all of His actions and decrees. If someone wants something from God, he or she can ask God directly without asking anyone else to intercede with God for him or her.

God is not Jesus, and Jesus is not God. Even Jesus himself denied that he is God. God has said in the Quran:

Indeed, they have disbelieved who have said, “God is the Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary.” The Messiah said, “Children of israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever associates partners in worship with God, then God has forbidden Paradise for him, and his home is the Fire (Hell). For the wrongdoers,3 there will be no helpers.” (Quran, 5:72)

God is not a trinity. God has said in the Quran:

Indeed, they disbelieve who say, “God is the third of three (in a trinity),” when there is no god but one God. If they desist not from what they say, truly, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. Would they not rather repent to God and ask His forgiveness? For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a messenger... (Quran, 5:73-75)

Note: It was reported by the Associated Press, London, on June 25, 1984, that a majority of the Anglican bishops surveyed by a television program said, “Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God.” The poll was of 31 of England’s 39 bishops. The report further stated that 19 of the 31 bishops said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent.” The poll was conducted by London Weekend Television’s weekly religious program, “Credo.”

[Stranger01]

Peace everyone,

Do you know what it all comes down to? Is God and His Plan for us uncomplicated, or complicated. That is what differentiates Christians and Muslims. Christians believe God is a complicated being, one God, but how is a being unconstrained to a body and form like us supposed to exist as? God could be a Trinity. Christians also believe that there is more to Jesus Christ, the Messiah. He was to be the Seal of the Prophets, because Messiah is a much much higher rank than Prophet. He was also supposed to be our salvation, as Prophets of the past have foretold the Messiah would be. The salvation for mankind, our way to the Kingdom of God. He's not this simple figure who calls for the worship of God and that's it. That's the vibe I'm getting from searching through the Quran, keyword "Isa". I don't think the Quran tells enough about Jesus, not even any of His parables or anything.

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I have just visited two very very surprising two links, since that time I am thinking what is true and what is false?

If any one can read them and guide me pls

sites are

you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_groups.google.ca/group/Truthandonly...o-z---100-truth

you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_groups.google(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/group/PZSDFTP/web...f-mary-ascended

thanks

[Stranger01]

U have posted good points. however English translation of verses u have given are incorrect and misleading and are designed to satisfy those who have believe in fictions and not in reality:

Correct Translation which is closest to Arabic text of Quran are as under: (from a Most Qualified & Unbiased Suni Scholar Dr. Muhammad ASAD. Any one can go to famous site of Islamicity to read his translation along with Yousaf Alis's and Picthal's--- and see a big differnce:

Dr Muhammad Asad Traslate verse as under:

3:55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ"


[size=5]Explaining the Quranic verse, "O Jesus, I will cause thee to die (mutawaffi-ka)", Ibn Abbas is recorded as saying:

"Ibn Abbas said: mutawaffi-ka means ‘I will cause thee to die (mumitu-ka) ’."

(Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, on verse 5:110). [using large font size is not allowed]
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Quran verse 4:157: “ And their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; [171] and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him”.

Verse 4:158: “nay, God exalted him unto Himself and God is indeed almighty, wise”.

Allah Kabir-ul-Muta’aal may sanctify soul of Dr. Muhammad Asad, who regarding verse 4:157 & 4:158 have also commented as follow:

Cf. 3:55, where God says to Jesus, "Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me." The verb rafa ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him") has always, whenever the act of raf’ ("elevating") of a human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting". Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace - a blessing in which all prophets partake, as is evident from 19:57, where the verb rafa nahu ("We exalted him") is used with regard to the Prophet Idris. (See also Muhammad ‘Abduh in Manar III, 316 f., and VI, 20f.) The "nay" (bal) at the beginning of the sentence is meant to stress the contrast between the belief of the Jews that they had put Jesus to a shameful death on the cross and the fact of God's having "exalted him unto Himself".(Quran Ref: 4:158 )

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Verse 5:116: AND LO! God said: [139] O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" [Jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception”

5:117: “Nothing did I tell them beyond what Thou didst bid me [to say]: `Worship God, [who is] my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer.' And I bore witness to what they did as long as I dwelt in their midst; but since Thou hast caused me to die, Thou alone hast been their keeper: [140] for Thou art witness unto everything”.

Note by Dr Muhammad Asad about verse 5:116 & 5:117 is as under:

Sc., "after Jesus' death": this is fully evident from Jesus' subsequent reference, in the past tense, to his own death ("since Thou hast caused me to (die") in verse 117. On the other hand, the verb qala (lit., "He said") can also have the meaning of "He will say" (see note 141 below).(Quran Ref: 5:116 )

The definite article in anta'r-raqib expresses God's exclusiveness in His function as raqib ("keeper"), and can only be rendered by an interpolation of the (elliptically implied) word "alone". Similar expressions relating to God are very often met with in the Qur'an -e.g., at the end of the next verse.(Quran Ref: 5:117)

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43:61: “AND, BEHOLD, this [divine writ] is indeed a means to know [that] the Last Hour [is bound to come]; [48] hence, have no doubt whatever about it, but follow Me: this [alone] is a straight way”.

Many many deliberately attach this verse to Jesus in order to supports some fictions but this verse has to do nothing with Jesus at all

Dr. Muhammad Asad (Allah Jalla Jalalo Hu may sanctify his soul) has commented on verse 43:61 as under:

Whereas most of the commentators regard the pronoun hu in innahu as relating to Jesus and, consequently, interpret the above phrase as "he is indeed a means to know [i.e., an indication of the coming of] the Last Hour", some authorities - e.g., Qatadah, Al-Hasan al-Basri and Sa’id ibn Jubayr (all of them quoted by Tabari, Baghawi and Ibn Kathir) - relate the pronoun to the Qur’an, and understand the phrase in the sense adopted in my rendering. The specific mention of the Last Hour in the above context is meant to stress man’s ultimate responsibility before the Creator and, therefore, the fact that worship is due to Him alone: and so this parenthetic passage follows logically upon the mention of the false deification of Jesus.(Quran Ref: 43:61 )


There is no doubt that Qadiani/Ahmedi/Lahri Ahamdis follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed are stupid and liars but bigger liars are those also who twist the meanings of verse of Quran in order to support their unsound believes

I we do not twist Quranic verses, Quran very clearly says:

1- Jesus did not die on cross as Roman pagan say. Now here there is very precise point from where our most of scholars just escape.

Meaning of WA Ma Salabu:

Salabu=Crucify---- > " TO KILL A CRIMINAL AFTER BINDING HIM OR NAILING HIM ON CROSS"

Now note here that "TO KILL on cross" is a condition of CRUCIFIXION. So if some one is nailed on cross but is removed from cross when he was still alive (in deep coma) and later healed from injuries and survives; why cannot say that person now that he is "CRUCIFIED" because he did not meet the condition of CRUCIFIXION which is "TO BE KILLED on CROSS"; so we can say "(thu tried on cross) this man is NOT CRICIFIED. Now staigly meaning of "NOT CRICIFIED is "Wa MA SALABU" which Noble Quran has used.

Quran never ever deny incident of cross (show me single verse?) but STRONGLY DENY DEATH OF JESUS ON CROSS.

No where Quran says " Jesus was replaced by some one on cross (show me sing word or verse in Quran?). Quran uses word "Shublahum" which means "IT SEEMED TO THEM THAT HE IS DIED BUT IN FACT HE WAS ALIVE". It is like, that u are driving country-side and u see a person has met accident and his car stopping on one side of road and there are marks of injusries on hi shead and body and he body is no movinging at al. and u call 911 to tell them and a person ask u on 911 line, Is person died or alive; u answer " It seems to me he is died (seems to me he is died ---.> Subalahum) but when person was taken to hospital, he was found alive by Dr.

Now many our brothers says, how GOD can allow that his prophet be nailed on cross by evil people? this is chlisg & immuture question. GOD has tested his friends i all ages. because this life is test. Job )Ayub) PBUM suffered a long desease (despite he was prophet like jesus), a prophet was alive hack-sawed in a tree, Jonna was thown in ocean and went into fish belly; Even our great master Prophet Muhammad (S) was injured in Ahud field and people of Taif injured him by stones, Ibrahim PBUH was even tossed in Fire but GOD saved him, so Som of Mary was nailed on cross but GOD SAVED him from dying on cross

We hate Qadianis/Ahamdis/Lahori Ahmadis and I believe too they are liars, We we should not escape from truth of Quran which says EXPLICITLY (if verses are not twisted)

1- Jesus did not die on cross (Wa Ma Salabu)- Quran never deny incident of cross but strongly deny his death on cross
2- Later Jesus died naturally as all prophet died and after his death, his soul was raised to paradise (as it happened with every other prophet

Regarding hadiths about this subject, we can find many many hadiths i two groups 1- the hadiths that say, Jesus went heaven and willcome again, 2- there are hadiths that clearly say, that thu Jesus survived death on cross as Noble Quran says but later son of mary is naturally died. Now if we do critical analysis in the light of charcater of narratetrs and Ilme-Rajaal, we clarly see that the hadith that say that Eis ais died are ver very AUTHENTIC and the hadith that says Eisa went alive to heavens with his mortal body of flesh and bones are forged hadiths by Baab Akbar and Munabba who were Roman pagan/jewish converts (in fact Munafilk)

Professor Mahmud Shaltut, Grand Mufti-Egypt & Past Rector of Azhar University has said in Fatwa:

That according to Quran, Jesus survived death on CROSS but in later life he was died naturally & the Hadiths abt Ascend/Descend were narrated by two hypocrites [size=5][size=5]"Wahab bin Munnabba" & "Ba'ab Akbar".[using large font size is not allowed][using large font size is not allowed]

But many ignorants have attached this Quranic truth to Stupid Qadianis in order to escape from truth & to support Christians' & Jewish fable


[size=5]I invite all this forum and any other person on this planet to debate with me if any one like so.But debate MUST be scholarly logical, MUTURE (not childish approach) specific and to the point. Because instead of having debate properly, if u tell me , o u are an ignorant and I tell you No iam not but u are stupid; so in this way it will be waste of time [using large font size is not allowed]

[Stranger01]

A wise, intelligent, and fully honest person can understand the truth about the matter of Eisa Jesus son of Mary by understanding just following verses of Glorious Quran. However we humans are failed to invent any panacea to this date that can be used to convince a dead-rock stubborn

GOD said in Quran in verse 5:75

[size=3]Christ, son of Mary, was but an apostle: all [other] apostles had passed away before him; & his mother was one who never deviated from the truth; & they both ate food [like other mortals]. Behold how clear We make these messages unto them: yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth![using large font size is not allowed]

"& MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him: if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? (Quran 3:144)

[Stranger01]

[CarlosTheJackal]

Hi Guys,

We Christians have our reasons why Jesus is called the Christ or Messiah; I’m curious why Muslims call Him by that name also?

Grace and peace be with you all,

[Redeem]

Hi Guys,

We Christians have our reasons why Jesus is called the Christ or Messiah; I’m curious why Muslims call Him by that name also?

Grace and peace be with you all,

You asked this question when you first registered and then proceeded to try to convince us that our beliefs are wrong and we should follow yours. Multiple people have already answered the question for you. Either you don't remember (in which case, I'll gladly remind you by posting the link to the topic), or you wish to have that discussion all over again.

Let me say what I said before. If you're angling for a chance to preach your beliefs again, then be straightforward instead of picking a seemingly innocent question to lure Muslims into a debate. There's a difference between seeking information, and wishing to dispute it.

Here is the topic on this subject: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=344968&st=0"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=344968&st=0[/url]

Salam.

[CarlosTheJackal]

Hi Redeem,

You have every right to be cautious and suspicious. I was wrong in my conduct and I ask for forgiveness from every Muslim here in this forum.

What I’m trying to get at is in the Bible it tells of Jesus in a certain way and the Quran it tells of Jesus in a different way so our views of Jesus obviously conflicts with one another. I don’t know the Quran well I have only gone through a few pages here and there and discovered Christians are referred to as the “people of the book”. Are there any references in the Quran that say the Gospel (injeel) has been corrupted as it is promoted this day and age?

Grace and peace be with you,

[Redeem]

I hope my words don't hinder you from interacting with others on this forum. I do, however, believe that it is futile to attempt to disprove Islam to Muslims, just as it is futile to attempt to disprove Christianity to Christians. No amount of "facts" or "logic" will change anyone's heart if the heart is already occupied, if you get my meaning. I make an effort to avoid such debates, because the outcome is always a stalemate. If anyone else wishes to discuss this with you, by all means.

Salam.

[CarlosTheJackal]

I’m open to discuss this topic with anyone in this forum. I agree with you completely that it would be futile to try to disprove either religion as it would also be a waste of time. The reason I have come back into this forum is because I have gotten hold of different sources that pretty much disprove Islam but there is a problem. The presenter is a Christian and obviously a very biased one. When he presented the allegations there was no Muslim representative present to defend the Islamic faith. So I thought it would be best to raise the issues in here so I could get answers from Muslims not Christians that have studied Islam.

Again my intention is not to degrade Islam but to bring up the allegations in this forum to give Muslims a chance to defend their faith and to try to understand how Muslims interpret certain things.

Grace and peace be with you,

[Stranger01]

As a Muslim we have firm believe that what is in Final revelation of GOD is the most correct. Christians and Jew could not beleive but also there are many non-Muslim unbiased Scholars who after their long research has siad that Quran is word of GOD and is not changed from 1400 yr.

So I will take first Quran. In Quran Allah Glory be to him says EISA SON OF Mariam. So actual name of Jesus was EISA son of Mariam (Mary). Jesus is made-up name.

Besides, we have also one of the oldest and probably the most authentic Historical document around 100 AD. That document has a record of Jesus with King Shalivahana.

In this interview, Kings asked him a Question. Who are u gentleman and will u introduces ur self. The person answers: My Name is Eisa and I am born of a virgin.

This document also confirm that actual name of Jesus was EXACTLY SAME as is in The Book of THE BOOKS Glorious Quran

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Definition. Messiah is the transliteration of a Hebrew term, Mashiach. The New Testament (Greek) equivalent is Christos. Both terms mean "the anointed one." The verb mashach, found about 140 times in the Old Testament, means "to smear, anoint, or spread."

Description. The verb was frequently used for the ceremonial induction into leadership. Three types of leaders were anointed:

Prophets represented God among the people (1 Kings 19:15-16).

Priests represented the people before God through sacrifices and prayers (Ex. 28:40-41).

Kings defended and ruled over the people on Gods behalf
(1 Sam.16:12-13).

Implications. The anointing meant that someone was authorized to serve God in a position of honor and responsibility. Divine enablement often accompanied the anointing. While many were anointed, only One was given the title of "the Anointed One."

[CarlosTheJackal]

Thanks Stranger for replying,

Obviously what is written about Jesus in the Bible differs from what was written in the Quran. Christians have been addressed as “people of the book” so we can naturally conclude the “book” was authentic. Are there any references in the Quran that suggest the Bible has been corrupted?

Grace and peace be with you,

[Stranger01]

[size=3]Your question; Does Quran Say "Bible is corrupted???[using large font size is not allowed]


At present time, to ask the question, that, Is bible corrupted? Are u Sure? -----> is like to ask some one, Are u sure, sun rises from the EAST?

We as a Muslim will kiss the Original Aramaic Bible even today if this original Bible was available today. But it is NOT.

All unbiased scholars including many many world's top class Christian theologians, Professors and researcher even believe that circulating bibles are badlly corrupted and forged.

I am not allowed to provide any link here as I am still junior member, otherwise I could provide u hundreds of links and several hundreds of verses of bibles that are forged and contradict each other. Quran tells us to have believe on all old scriptures too. But it is common sense to understand that Allah will not tell any one to believe on Forged Scriptures.

If you type in Google "Who wrote the Bible?" u will find first hit that have long video at Google. This video is made and launched not by a Muslim, and not by an un-educated Christian but by a Christian Academic Theologian. Pls just watch ur own video and enjoy!

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GOD has said about who have changed original Bible & then profiteered from it, in Quranic verse 2:79 as under:

(Verse 2:79 ) Woe, then, unto those who write down, with their own hands, [something which they claim to be] divine writ, and then say. "This is from God," in order to acquire a trifling gain thereby; woe, then, unto them for what their hands have written, and woe unto them for all that they may have gained!

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God says in Quran in verse 3:78:

And, behold, there are indeed some among them who distort the Bible with their tongues, so as to make you think that [what they say] is from the Bible, the while it is not from the Bible; and who say, "This is from God," the while it is not from God: and thus do they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie

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When woman gives male birth, she is unclean for 40 day & if she give female birth, she is unclean for 80 day. To disinfect a home, take blood of a bird and sprinkle it in ur home. A believer if eats deadly poison, will not die & will speak many tongues. To test a person if adulterer or not, throw bitter water on him, and if he/she is, his/her belly & glands will come out. This is wrtn in circulating bibles & still our friends believe them.

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The TRUTH About Bibles

Eisa/Jesus had only a few disciples (not 10s of thousand like with Muhammad (S) & even they left Jesus in difficult time. So original Aramaic bible (Injeel) never existed right after Jesus. The books such as of Mathew Mark Luke John & other 72 conflicting editions & doctrines are fake production of these priests, Paul, & Council of Nicea 325 A.D. In fact followers of these forged books are the most deluded people in mankind history. Simply, their fabricated dogma that is based on these corrupted books is like a fictitious tree that has no roots

An honest truth seeker does not need a Ph.D in theology to understand the truth that If u read Quran, thru out in Quran, Allah (Some say God) is addressing humans directly or through Muhammad (S). On the contrary, when u read so called bibles, u will read thru out in these priest's authored books "Jesus said this and Jesus said that etc". No where in these man-made books God seems to address people.

Dr. C.E.M. Joad (August 12, 1891 to April 9, 1953) was an English philosopher) writes in his book Good and Evil on page 319:

"that the character of Jesus Christ which emerges from these circulating bibles is most regrettable. It was the Holy Quran which narrated the correct story and depicted an excellent character of both the personalities (Mary and her son Jesus)"


The biggest test for any scripture if it is in its TRUE ORIGINAL form or not is, that It will be free of internal contradiction in its content, text and dialect:

GOD says in his protected final revelation to mankind in Quran verse 4:82:

"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy"

ONE OF THE GREATEST SCHOLARS of Bibles Dr. Constantine von Tischendorf, who aft having personally examined the original hand written copies of the oldest available Four Gospels hv quoted:

“tht the texts for the physical ascension of Jesus to heaven or Jesus being carried by the angels to heaven, are lacking in these ancient documents. The texts tht are found within the published copies of the circulating gospels on the subject of the physical ascension of Jesus hv been added centuries later"


Ur own scholars are saying that Bibles are forged
-----------------------

[CarlosTheJackal]

Thanks Stranger for those quotes,

I’m curious about “(Verse 2:79 ) Woe, then, unto those who write down, with their own hands, [something which they claim to be] divine writ, and then say. "This is from God," in order to acquire a trifling gain thereby; woe, then, unto them for what their hands have written, and woe unto them for all that they may have gained!”

How do you know if those who wrote down false revelations from God are the Christians or Jews? How do you know if that verse was meant to be applied to the pagans e.g. idol worshippers?

Grace and peace be with you,

[Chris]

Peace Carlos

If I can just add a couple of things to this topic.

I was a Christian once, and a devotee to it. I read, I studied, I propogated and I debated all in its name.

Today I am a Muslim, a person who rejects the concept of trinity.

The trinity concept is historically a creation to apease the authorities of the time. The concept of one god to the Romans of the Pauline period was unacceptable; remember they were polyethists In declaring 3 in 1 the religionists could square the circle of keeping one god whilst keeping their masters happy allowing the former to advance the "new" religion.

Peace

Chris

[Stranger01]

Hi Chris (replying to ur Question)

We have to take any subject and also Quran in its Totality. We cannot isolate just one verse and present it, as recently one son of devil has made 10 minutes movie against Quran in Netherlander. He was hiding a part of verse and showing other to people w/o its pretext.

Example "Do not smoke here"". If I take first part of this sentence " do not" away, Then It becomes "SMOKE HERE".

So my point is that one should take Quran as a whole. not a just potion of Quran.

Now we see in many verses in Quran, GOD has said that I have sent Quran and I am responsible for its protection preservation, gathering .
Besides GOD says, No any evil can touch it from any side, Nay It is Glorious Quran and is preserved in Guarded Tablet.

Let us assume There is a teacher in a room and In that Room there are his three students name Chris, Stranger01 & David.

Teacher declares very clearly that I want to tell every one that CHRIS has got 100% marks in exam but there are some who are failed in exam.

From this example we can easily understand that Chris is free from this charge of failure, and charge is being laid on other two that were present at that time beside Chris. (I mean here Quran, Tora and Injeel )

So Surely It is not Quran but other forge editions of scriptures that were present beside Quran in those days.

The Question u have raised is usually comes from Gone-Astray Follower of a Liar called Rashid Khalifa, and his followers say their self submitters) instead of saying their self a MUSLIM). Quran talks about Islam and MUSLIM (there is no any Arabic word in Quran called submitter). One cannot translate even names. Name of Mr. Black will be still Mr Black even if he is in India. No one in India will translate his name to Mr Kala. No one there will translate the name EISA to JESUS -- Names are not translated but thousands of names have been translated by church in 2000 years. Submitter cult tells people to use also the forged Bibles, depite they know that bible is badly forged. And I have already discussed the matter of Forgery in bible in my previous post in detail. Some time these submitters cult members are disguised under the name of a sect "Quran Only". or "Quran Alone". Whether Islam says, Who make sect is a MUSHRIK.

Some people are not Muslim converts in fact but they are followers of Liar Rashid Khalifa or Mirza Gulam Ahmed Qadiani but they enter in this forum & in many other forums and introduce their selves as new Muslim converts. For me, It is very very easy to trace them to their roots from the content of their posting

After reading almost all translations of Quran; the highest scholarship I have found in Dr Muhammad Asad's work on Quran and His translation is to the nearest to the Original Arabic text. Dr Muhammad Asad writes his comments under these verses that u have pointed out as follow:


Note 64 (Quran Ref: 2:79 )
The reference here is to the scholars responsible for corrupting the' text of the Bible and thus misleading their ignorant followers. The "trifling gain" is their feeling of pre-eminence as the alleged "chosen people".(Quran Ref: 2:79 )


Note 60 (Quran Ref: 3:78 )
Most of the commentators assume that this refers specifically to the Jews, whom the Qur'an frequently accuses of having deliberately corrupted the Old Testament. However, since the next two verses clearly relate to Jesus and to the false beliefs of the Christians regarding his nature and mission, we must conclude that both Jews and Christians are referred to in this passage. For this reason, the term al-kitab, which occurs three times in this sentence, has been rendered here as "the Bible". - According to Muhammad `Abduh (Manar III, 345), the above-mentioned distortion of the Bible does not necessarily presuppose a corruption of the text as such: it can also be brought about "by attributing to an expression a meaning other than the one which was originally intended". As an example, `Abduh quotes the metaphorical use, in the Gospels, of the term "my Father" with reference to God - by which term, as is evident from the Lord's Prayer, was obviously meant the "Father" - i.e., the Originator and Sustainer - of all mankind. Subsequently, however, some of those who claimed to be followers of Jesus lifted this expression from the realm of metaphor and "transferred it to the realm of positive reality with reference to Jesus alone": and thus they gave currency to the idea that he was literally "the son of God", that is, God incarnate.(Quran Ref: 3:78 )


Only a mentally sick person will believe (as followers of Liar Rashid Khalifa believes) that GOD tells people to use old forged scriptures. When GOD tells to have believe on old scriptures, It s mean on ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES, not on forged scriptures. This is matter of common sense. Also we know that Original Quran exist in its original language today from 1400 years but Original Injeel (Gospel) in its original language "Aramaic" sent to Eisa son of Mary PBUH) does not exist today AT ALL

[size=2]Have u guyes searched The HOT MOST video now-a-days in GOOGLE named " Who wrote the Bible?"[using large font size is not allowed]


A few example, for followers of Liar Rashid Khalifa and other stubborn who say that we should also use Forged Bibles:

Look CRYSTAL CLEAR CORRUPTION IN BIBLES:

Who incited David to count the fighting men of israel?
(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?
(a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16)
(b) Hell (Luke 3:23)

A BOOK of GOD cannot have such contradictions.
But u STUBBORN still say it is word of God.
================================

SEE CORRUPTION IN so called BIBLES?

CAN A BOOK OF GOD HAVE SUCH CONTRADICTIONS???

Who was the father of Shealtiel?
(a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12)
(b) Neri’ (Luke 3:27)

How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ?
(a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17)
(b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1: 12-16)

Stubborn say, it is word of God?
===========================

SEE CORRUPTION IN so called BIBLES?

CAN A BOOK OF GOD HAVE SUCH CONTRADICTIONS???

Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey?
(a) Yes(Mark6:8)
(b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3)

Did Jesus bear his own cross?
(a) Yes (John 19:17)
(b) No (Matthew 27:31-32)

Stubborn say, it is word of God?
====================================

What corrupted bibles say about the event of attempted crucifixion?

So should u believe in conflicting crucifixion stories told in man-made corrupted bibles?

The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus?
(a) Yes (Mark 15:32)
(b) No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43)

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?
(a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)
(b) No. (John 12:27)


These are a few examples. I do not want to misuse the forum, other wise I can post here additional thousands examples.

[size=2]So My Friend! Do u stlll believe that Bible is not Corrupted, and When Quran was saying about forgery, It was saying about Buddhist or Hindu scriptures or books of chemistry and physics, and not about Forged Bibles[size=4]??????????[using large font size is not allowed][using large font size is not allowed]

[Redeem]

Thanks Stranger for those quotes,

I’m curious about “(Verse 2:79 ) Woe, then, unto those who write down, with their own hands, [something which they claim to be] divine writ, and then say. "This is from God," in order to acquire a trifling gain thereby; woe, then, unto them for what their hands have written, and woe unto them for all that they may have gained!”

How do you know if those who wrote down false revelations from God are the Christians or Jews? How do you know if that verse was meant to be applied to the pagans e.g. idol worshippers?

Grace and peace be with you,

You look to the history of the verse. The period of time during which it was revealed and what was happening at such a time. More importantly, you look at the context in which the verse was written by looking at the verses that precede and follow it.

The verses before it speak specifically of Moses and his followers, and how they acted out in disobedience against him.

The subject of the verse is not pagans. It is those who claimed to follow Moses and the book he had revealed, and then after saying they believed, altered its content.

Now you might ask, "well, what about the Bible?"

And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues, so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: This is from Allah, but it is not from Allahº and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.[3:78]

It says "Among them". Among who? We need to look at the previous verses to see who the subject is. "Among them" refers to those among the People of the Book or Scripture. The people of the Book is the name given to the Christians and Jews. The verses before it speak of the Jews and the verses after it speak of the Christians.

You can disagree that the previous books were changed. But there is no doubt that the Qur'an clearly states that they were changed, and even mentions who did it.

Salam.

[Stranger01]

[size=3]Correction:[using large font size is not allowed]


Sorry my a.m detailed answer was for CarlosTheJackal instead of Chris - I aplogize Chris