102 replies to this topic

[Jibrael]

Lol, is this a joke?

I don't know, but it's making my head hurt.

[open]

Peace from our Lord,

Lol, is this a joke?

I don't think. This sounds as ordinary Islamic anti-semitism disguised as antizionism.

Not all muslims are antisemitists, I think it is a minority. But don't underestimate this minority.

[MaKSofaHãßÓæÝÉ]

holocaust thi 6 Million jews murdered that, rats feet’s I say! This whole drama has giving the Jews licences to kill Muslims and abuse anyone against them.. No wonder even kaafirs in their own country don’t have the rights to talk about the holocaust in the disadvantages of the Jews! there goes their so called theory about freedom of speech more like Freedom of speech with conditions just as longs as you don’t mess with the jews !

Appreciated this article btw !

[MaKSofaHãßÓæÝÉ]

Holocausts of Muslims

Crusaders killed more than half million Muslims during and after occupying Jerusalem.
Ganges Khan and his forces killed more than a million Muslims during the occupation of Iraq and neighboring areas.
Thousands of Muslims were killed / forced to change religion by Spanish Crusaders in South America
More than a million Muslims were killed / displaced by Spanish and other European extremists during the rebellion against the Ottoman Empire.
More than 3 million Muslims were killed / displaced by the European colonial powers during and after the occupation of Muslim countries after World War I and II.
More than 5 million Muslims were killed / displaced by Tsars of Russia
More than a million Muslims were killed / displaced by Communist Government of Russia
More than 1.5 million Muslims have been killed in China, Cambodia, Vietnam, and other Far East countries since the world war II
More than half million Muslims have been killed / displaced in Burma since World War II
More than half million Muslims have been killed in India and Kashmir since 1947
More than half million Muslims were killed by Serbs and Croats in Bosnia during early 90s.
More than 100,000 Muslims were killed in Kosovo and Albania during mid 90s.
More than 5 million Muslims have been killed / displaced in Palestine since 1948
More than 5 million Muslims were killed / displaced by the Russian occupation of Afghanistan
More than one million Muslims children died from malnutrition in Iraq during the US/UN embargo on Iraq during 1990s.
Thousands of Muslims have been killed by the secular governments in Muslim countries, backed by the Western Governments, since the independence from the colonial powers.
Currently, hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed by the American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan...................
.........


References:

H.G. Wells, “A Short History of the World,” Penguin Books, 1949
“Chambers Dictionary of the World History,” Chambers, 1994.
G. C. Kohn, “Dictionary of the Wars,” Doubleday, 1987.
Erna Paris, “The End of the Days,” Lester Publishing, 1995.
David Brownstone and Irene Franck, “Timelines of the War,” Cittle, Brown and Company, 1994.
A. Hourani, “A History of the Arab Peoples,” Harvard University Press, 1991.
Roland Oliver and J. D. Fage, “A Short History of Africa,” 1968.
J. Burne, Editor, “Chronicle of the World,” Longman, 1989.
N. Davies, “Europe, A History,” Pimilico, 1997.
P. Hitti, “History of the Arabs,” Mcmillan, 1990.
T. Pakenham, “The Scramble For Africa,” George Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1997.
J. A. hammerton, “The Outline History of the World,” The Amalgamated Press Ltd., 1993.
Cox, George, W, The Crusades (1886); Laffan, R.G.D (ed. and trans.), Select Documents of European History 800 - 1492, (1929)

inna lillahi w ina ilahy rajeoon !!!!!! May they All rest in peace and may Allah grant them All the Jannatul fardows !! Allahuma ameen

[cogito]

5million killed (or displaced), you make me laugh...

Yes, yes, we all know that over the last thousand years many people have been killed. Shall we count the number of British people who have been killed in that time, the number of Russians, the number of Black people exploited and worked to death as slaves?

Maybe you should make a point rather than making a list.

The reason that the Holocaust is well remembered is that it is very recent, and it is the real case of a systematic attempt to wipe out an entire group of people just based on their heritage. You could be a practicing christian, lived in germany all your life and still the Nazi's would want to kill you if your mother's mother was jewish. The word GENOCIDE was actually invented to describe the crimes of the Nazis!

Let us remember all murders and wars, but don't try to play down perhaps the most widespread and repugnant of them all. Just because other cases of mass murder are less famously remembered.

[yusufar]

Many people have fallen into the Zionist trap of loose and etymologically incorrect use of the term "anti-semitism", as if this only applied with regard to Jews. Kudos to their propaganda of course.

The Arabs (not all of whom are Muslims) are also a semitic race. Therefore the term "anti-semite" can also mean "anti-Arab". It would also be very strange for an Arab to be "anti-semitic".

Islam is against racism in any form. A Muslim who is a racist would be going against the teachings of his own religion which teaches that no race is superior to another. Muslims don't need racists to tell us that we are racists. If we were we wouldn't be Muslims.

Muslims have absolutely no reason to hate Jews in particular or any other race in general. If this was so there would not be any Jews becoming Muslims, yet there are. But I have yet to come across any Muslim becoming a Judaist! Is it because the Jews are racists themselves or is there any other reason for this?

Does this even make the Jews in general racist? I would think not, given that not all Jews nowadays actually practice Judaism and being Jewish to many merely means their cultural and racial identity. Not all Jews even support Zionism - which is itself a racist ideology.

It is all very easy and convenient for criticism against a group of people of a particular race to be labelled as "racist" when it may not be so, since not all members of that race may be the subject of that criticism.

Such labelling of course is nothing but a well-calculated smear which would deflect from having to respond to the actual criticism itself by the implication that being "racist" there is no basis for it, even if it was actually justified or true. Very convenient when one wants to avoid having to deal with the real issues or to face the truth!

But this is nothing but a cheap trick employed by bigots. It puts an abrupt end to all intellectual discussion and betrays not only the deceptive shallowness of anyone using it but also his utter and complete moral and spiritual bankruptcy. Such a person is in fact if not a racist himself then a supporter of racism, whether he realises it or not!

As Lenni Brenner concludes in his contribution to the anthology "The Politics of Anti-Semitism", "Bluntly put: if you want to end today's "anti-Semitism" against Jews, end Zionism's "anti-Semitism" against Palestinians."

Regards,

yusufar
islamicunityfoundation

Anti-Arab = Anti-Semite
Anti-Palestinian = Anti-Humanity
Anti-Muslim = Anti-Peace
Anti-Islam = Anti-Civilisation
Are You Any Or All Of The Above?

[cogito]

Anti-semitism refers to racism against jews. This is the meaning of the word, just because the etymology of the word semite includes anyone of middle easter origin doesn't mean that the word is misused. For example when we talk of the "western" world we are talking of countries with a certain form of government and freedoms, we aren't refering the the world west of a certain border. Otherwise New Zealand or Australia or Japan could never be "western" countries. Language evolves, deal with it!

Do you deny that anti semitism is rife in Islamic countries? Do you deny that jews are considered inferior and offensive? Jews are not welcome in many places in the world. Just because the religion of Islam isn't racist, doesn't mean that people who happen to practice it are not.

Zionism is about the establishment of a homeland for the jews, how is this a racist idea? It would be racist if the policy of israel were to deny access to all peoples of other religions but it doesn't, there are over 1 million non jews in israel as far as I know!

By the way, the reason you don't see many people converting to Judaism is because it isn't an evangelical religion. Jews don't preach about their religion and how others should join it and they don't believe that all those who aren't jewish will burn in hell. You should research more because I'm not too well informed.

[open]

holocaust thi 6 Million jews murdered that, rats feet’s I say!

English is not my mother tongue, can You please explain this expression in plain English.
5 to 6.5 millions killed Jews (estimates vary a bit) are a fact. As the more than 1 million killed gypsies.

This whole drama has giving the Jews licences to kill Muslims and abuse anyone against them

Nope. The killing and abusing done by israeli forces are not justified by the holocaust, but by the killing done by Palestinians (e.g. suicide bombers). Its a vicious circle - on side provoking the other to the next killing - for many years ...

No wonder even kaafirs in their own country don’t have the rights to talk about the holocaust in the disadvantages of the Jews!

How can one talk on holocaust "in the disvantage of the jews" without distortung the facts? Please be precise.

there goes their so called theory about freedom of speech more like Freedom of speech with conditions just as longs as you don’t mess with the jews !

One reason of that Danish cartoons affair was the impression "you can spit in the face of atheists, christians and jews, but not moslems". I well remember the embassador of israel in Germany saying you can criticize israel, even giving examples of such criticism (e.g. by then foreign minister Joschka Fischer).
But don't complain when victims of a crime want to be protected from mocking based on denial of the crime.

Just think about how you would react to the sentence "The faked massacre of Deir Yassin has giving the Palestinians licences to kill Jews and abuse anyone against them". Thats almost the same as Your sentence - the main difference being the estimaterd number of victims in holocaust/Deir Yassin ...

[open]

Peace from our Lord,

Many people have fallen into the Zionist trap of loose and etymologically incorrect use of the term "anti-semitism",

This usage is a invention of the anti-semitists, it originated in the German paper "Der Antisemit" (I don't have to translate it ...).

Anti-Arab = Anti-Semite

No, when a meaning, even a etymologically incorrect meaning, of a word is established, we should follow it. It would be silly to insist that the hungrian origin of "hurrah" meant "kill him" just to cite the most absurd etymologically incorrect usage I know of

Anti-Palestinian = Anti-Humanity

Whats "Anti-Palestinian"? Answering suicide-bombing with bombs? Calling the former Mufti of Jerusalem a Nazi? The peace-now movement in israel demands the Palestinians should be given their own state.

Anti-Muslim = Anti-Peace

You can add Anti-Jewish, Anti-Christian, Anti-Buddhist, and so on - they are all Anti-Peace

Anti-Islam = Anti-Civilisation

See above.

Are You Any Or All Of The Above?

Same question to You.

[open]

Peace from our Lord,

Zionism is about the establishment of a homeland for the jews, how is this a racist idea?

The idea may not be racist, but the way it is put in practice can nevertheless be racist.
The Histadruth was the first trade-union for Jews only. It changed the impact of the Zionist movement in Palestine. In the first decades, the Zionists were welcome by many people in Palestine, due to their work there even was an Arab immigration to palestine because the conditions getting better there.
But then influential supporter of Zionism and the Histadruth established a rule that no Arab would get a job in a zionist factory or farm when there were Jews without jobs. Shortly after, the first mass protests against Zionism occured in 1926 (?) ...

By the way, the reason you don't see many people converting to Judaism is because it isn't an evangelical religion.

Evangelicalism is a Christian movement, You seem to mean "evangelistic". But "spreading the Gospel" (this is the meaning of "evangelistic", or did it get a wider meaning in English?) is a weird way to describe spreading of Judaism it would be more wise to speak of Judaism as a non-proselytizing religion.

You should research more because I'm not too well informed.

At least the impression You got from Judaism is the same as mine.

[cogito]

Thank you very much for correcting my language. Even though my usage was correct and the meaning my sentence was well understood!

[Liberté]

Do some people actually think that using anti-semite to mean anti-jewish is incorrect? Or are they just being pedantic?

[open]

Peace from our Lord,

Do some people actually think that using anti-semite to mean anti-jewish is incorrect? Or are they just being pedantic?

Maybe, or they try to blur things to cover their antisemitism?

[bowman]

Holocaust is not just about the Jews. A lot of other people were killed too.

From Wikipedia

"The Jews of Europe were the main victims of the Holocaust in what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" (die "Endlösung der Judenfrage"). The commonly used figure for the number of Jewish victims is six million, though estimates by historians using, among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from five million to seven million. Many gentiles were killed in addition to this figure.

About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Catholics, and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed. Many scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, with some scholars limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews; some to genocide of the Jews, Roma, and disabled; and some to all groups targeted by Nazi racism. Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

The holocaust was abut killing people who were considered minor than the Arian race. Even German mentally ill were killed in great numbers even thou they were Christians. They were considered inferior.

Regards

Bowman

[open]

Peace from our Lord,

Holocaust is not just about the Jews. A lot of other people were killed too.

Right.

About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs,

These were the pople killed because of their "race". Then there were the physically and mentally disabled. The other groups you mentioned were persecuted, and this included some killing, but there was no systematic killing like the holocaust.

Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

Depending which groups are included there, the figure 9-11 millions may be correct. The 26 millions never were a serious estimate, AFAIR it was mentioned once in a (Swiss?) newspaper shortly after the war. It is almost exclusively cited by people who want to cast doubts on the holocaust: dig out this dubious figure and refute it ... an old propaganda trick.

The holocaust was abut killing people who were considered minor than the Arian race. Even German mentally ill were killed in great numbers even thou they were Christians. They were considered inferior.

Since "Christian" is no race (not even by nazi terminology), the mentioning of Christians in this context does not make sense. Christians were persecuted too (although less harshly than, say, communists). The only reason why Muslims were not perseuted is probably the fact they were virtually non-existent in Germany.

[alameen]

Islamic Forum comment:
We at the Islamic forum have nothing against Jews at large, we are only against Zionist Jews. In fact, there are many Jewish groups who openly reject zionism, and there are good Jews everywhere. Judiasm is the first of the three holy religions that all Muslims believe in and respect, in their true and original forms. Zionism, on the other hand, is pure evil, not just for Muslims, but for the entire human race.

Yes, this should be the attitude. In the Masjids around the world, imams tell stories about Moses and the early Jewish tribes. Jewish tribes and nations have been living under Muslim rulers in peace for many centuries. Some of the strongest criticism against the zionist movement comes from Jewish groups.

I abhor Zionist racism and the way Palestinians and Arabs are being treated by israel. But to tell you the truth, I find this article by Mr. Steele racist...

Peace

[Liberté]

Jewish tribes and nations have been living under Muslim rulers in peace for many centuries.

I abhor Zionist racism and the way Palestinians and Arabs are being treated by israel. But to tell you the truth, I find this article by Mr. Steele racist...

So jews can live under Muslim rulers but when a bunch of them are living in a region with no real borders, they are not entitled to a state just like the Palestinians who lived there.

Zionist racism? I abhor all racism and any zionist who also happen to be racists are pathetic. israel as a whole isn't a racist state though. I know you won't believe this but I don't know why you think it is racist?????

[alameen]

So jews can live under Muslim rulers but when a bunch of them are living in a region with no real borders, they are not entitled to a state just like the Palestinians who lived there.

Zionist racism? I abhor all racism and any zionist who also happen to be racists are pathetic. israel as a whole isn't a racist state though. I know you won't believe this but I don't know why you think it is racist?????

i am open to new ideas

zionist rule over the palestinians have been exceptionally harsh. palestinian lands were forcefully confiscated, their houses demolished, and the non-jewish population were forced into refugee camps. btw, the palestinian jews were not happy to see their neighbors forced into ghettos. it is due to this injustice that palestinians have been resisting.

under muslim rule, the norm was that nothing of the native population would be confiscated and enjoy freedom of religion. non-muslim communities even had their own judges to judge between them. only non-muslim men had to pay a tax (depending on one's income) in lieu of military service. only if this tolerant attitude was shown towards the native palestinians...

peace

Edited by alameen, 17 July 2006 - 03:06 AM.

[open]

Peace from our Lord,

under muslim rule, the norm was that nothing of the native population would be confiscated and enjoy freedom of religion.

No, there was no freedom of religion, it was forbidden to leave Islam. Without the right to join or leave any religion, there is no freedom, but only a limited tolerance.

But to the main topic of your post:
You made complaints about the way the israeli state treats the Palestinians. Your complaints are valid, but they don't say anything whether Zionism is racism or not. If you want to prove racism, please be more precise.

[zukiful]

saalam

Jews are not a race !

You get Arab jews .
Persian Jews .

Russian Jews .
Polish Jews .

Ethiopian Jews .
Yemeni Jews .

All different races .


jews are not a race, so it is impossible to be racist toward them. it also proves they are not semites, so one cant be anti-semetic toward them. it is they whom are racist and anti-semetic towards the arabs!