66 replies to this topic

[yusufar]

So who is going to be your benevolent dictator? What happens when a benevolent dictator comes to power and you don't like what he is doing? I don't think you have thought this through.

It's like the matrix, you would rather live in a "blissful" lie. I would prefer to be free and know the truth.

You don't get it. Ultimately it doesn't matter what system you call it. It's what people make of it which matters. Is America under Bush and the neocons really free? You may assume so to your own and other people's peril. That's an even more "blissful" lie.

By definition a benevolent dictator is benevolent and does things for the benefit of his people. If he does things which people don't like he can hardly be called benevolent now could he?

Any system can be subverted, even democracy. Safeguards can be overridden by sophisticated means, ideas and lies by malevolent people acting in the very name of the liberties and freedoms they destroy to satisfy their own greed and lust for power.

You may not see it, but what America is doing today and has been doing since the Vietnam War is destroying this earth and its people. Well, we see it and we don't like it and we are dealing with it. Deal with it yourself!

Regards,

yusufar

[arawelo16]

after the holocaust EUROPEAN JEWS were promised land by other europeans
what do u notice when u look at most ppl who claim their israelis?
u do the math

[cogito]

The land was under a British Mandate with the authority of the UN. There were lots of Jews in that area and the land had been simultaneous promised to two groups, so it was going to be split. However the surrounding arab nations found that to be unaccceptable and decided to try and destroy the israeli half and promised it all to the Palestinians. Too bad israel wasn't defeated.

What puzzles me is why didn't the Jordanians set up a Palestinian state in the West Bank, if they were really friends of the Palestinians?

[arawelo16]

^yes their r original middleastern jews there but they were outnumbered by the arab muslims and know they they run this country and outnumber arab muslims,where did they come from? europe
they know it too
salaam

[cogito]

Arghhhhhhh! I know lots of Jews moved to israel because they wanted to live there in a jewsish state, they were promised a state and it was split into a state for the Jews and a state for the arab inhabitants of Palestine.

Why do you have a problem with this? There were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Palestine and the area was divided. Why didn't the arab factions accept it and try to build a succesful nation, like the israelis have!!!

[tom]

Palestine should consist of most of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Any Palestinian who cannot accept that, has to accept that their demands will never be accepted by israel.

wrong. PALESTINE should consist of ALL of west bank and gaza strip. the 2 state solution should be according to un partition in 1947/48. as you can see what PALESTINIANS have now is bits and pieces of west bank and gaza strip, it's not even MOST of the occupied PALESTINIAN territories. hence if israel truly wanna 2 state solution it should move back within un partition boundary. that simple

The tragedy is that many people are stuck in the past and caught up in their hatred and this is a road block on the road map to peace.

the us exploited this socalled hatred by dumping foreign jews in PALESTINE, by feeding israelis with billions worth of arms to plunder and murder PALESTINIANS. read history

[tom]

Arghhhhhhh! I know lots of Jews moved to israel because they wanted to live there in a jewsish state, they were promised a state and it was split into a state for the Jews and a state for the arab inhabitants of Palestine.

britain made fork tongue promises first to the arabs then to the jews. that's how foreign jews get their socalled promised state israel via britain's deceptive promises

in HARDfact, jews no longer have a hold on israel coz they lost it to the romans once upon a time. it's through un, britain and the us' narrowminded grace that israel is born again through dividing PALESTINE. the division is at the expense of PALESTINIANS, those in that part of PALESTINE that has become israel were either expelled by foreign jews or fled in terror

Why do you have a problem with this? There were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Palestine and the area was divided. Why didn't the arab factions accept it and try to build a succesful nation, like the israelis have!!!

the arabs and PALESTINIANS couldn't accept the partition simply because it did not reflect the composition of the inhabitants there

unscop report -
in the jewish state israel, there were 407,000 arabs and 498,000 jews
in arab state PALESTINE, there were 725,000 arabs and only 10,000 jews

with the birth of israel, 100s of 1,000s arabs or PALESTINIANS there became refugees. as you can see the partition has caused PALESTINIANS in diaspora as foreign jews have been once upon a time

[mussa bin maymun]

Please re-read brother 'Crystal Swords' post.

Actually muslims believe Adam (peace be upon him) was the first Prophet of Islam. He was, essentially, Muslim.

So Islam is the oldest religion!

So if I start a religion called 'abc' today, and say we abcists believe that adam was an abcist, then I have the right to israel as well?

[mussa bin maymun]

after the holocaust EUROPEAN JEWS were promised land by other europeans
what do u notice when u look at most ppl who claim their israelis?
u do the math

I notice that half of the poeple claiming to be israelis come from muslim countries! You would probably know that had more of them stayed behind instead of moving to israel.

As a side note, europeans didn't promise us anything, we beat the invaders without the help of europe, the US, or the UN in 1948.

[yusufar]

Assalamualaikum & Greetings,

This is one of the more "benign" ways in which the israelis steal land from the Palestinians:

"(A Palestinian farmer explained to the Guardian how it works):

"The israelis made a fence around the settlement, then they put in a small gate so we could get to our olive trees. They gave us the key and let us come and go for the first year. Then they changed the lock and put a guard on. But he doesn’t come on the Sabbath and holidays and when he is sick. Then one day he doesn’t come at all and you can’t get to your land. Then they declare you are not working on your land and seize it."

-- Villagers fear being forced out by being locked in; The Guardian, 14 May 2003."

If the israelis can do this and worse, in a couple of hundred years (or even less), all of Palestine will "belong" to them once more, until they get kicked out again for their arrogance and just plain bad behaviour.

Will they ever change? If they haven't changed over the past 3,000 years or so, can we seriously expect them to change any time soon? Even Moses (pbuh) would cry in despair.

Regards,

yusufar
(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicunityfoundation(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]The Islamic Unity Foundation[/url]

[arawelo16]

I notice that half of the poeple claiming to be israelis come from muslim countries! You would probably know that had more of them stayed behind instead of moving to israel.

As a side note, europeans didn't promise us anything, we beat the invaders without the help of europe, the US, or the UN in 1948.

tom brang statistics u bring ur statistics opinions here do not matter
and go look up the history of your country a small part of palestine was given to the jews (by the british or english or whatever their called)and palestinian arabs had no problem with it but it's when jews started to claim their land that this whole arab -jew thing started
and i find it funny u would quote me instead of tom who brang u proof lol

[cogito]

That is wrong. Just so incorrect, israel accepted the partition plan. The Arab nations as a whole rejected it and set about trying to destroy the fledgling state rather than establish a Palestinian state.

[Ozymandias]

Look, no one is going to convince anyone else here...the mindsets are too entrenched. Let me just say that 'right' has nothing to do with anything. Every inch on land on this earth was originally inhabited by someone else. Land belongs to those with the strength and the will to take it. This is how it has always been and always shall be. The only thing that annoys me is when people camoflague this fact with mealy-mouthed claims of human rights and fair play and what not. We live in a jungle people...sharpen your claws.

[cogito]

You should always have an army to defend yourself and protect your existence, but people in democracies these days are against invasion on the grounds of expansion. You are far too cynical and think in extremes, there is a middle ground and there you will find something closer to the truth.

There were Jews and Arabs in Palestine who wanted a state, so a partition was proposed. It seems so simple doesn't it, accept the partition, and build a successful nation. Unfortunately some people didn't accept the partition. With hindsight would they have, I think not because the destruction of israel is still a pipe dream for many.

[Waranle]

The israelis were NOT the first people to live in Palestine. They took it from the various Caananite peoples through genocide. Then they split into two seperate countries and fought each other until They were then conquered by The Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans. It says in their own Bible that God kicked them out for disobeying him and that they wont return till their messiah comes. It is funny that the present state of israel is behaving exactly like the Caananites were. Godlessness, homosexuality, oppression of other peoples, etc...

All the Jews that lived in Palestine before WW2 can live there but the rest that came from Europe need to pack their things and hit the road.

[cogito]

The israelis were NOT the first people to live in Palestine. They took it from the various Caananite peoples through genocide. Then they split into two seperate countries and fought each other until They were then conquered by The Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans. It says in their own Bible that God kicked them out for disobeying him and that they wont return till their messiah comes. It is funny that the present state of israel is behaving exactly like the Caananites were. Godlessness, homosexuality, oppression of other peoples, etc...

All the Jews that lived in Palestine before WW2 can live there but the rest that came from Europe need to pack their things and hit the road.

I don't know if it is worth replying because I am sure you will hit me with the same old chestnuts but here goes. It doesn't matter who was there first, after WWII when the mandated area was being split there was a partition plan which reflected the two people living in palestine who had claims to a state.

After israel was established, they can let anyone they like immigrate! Why would israel have any reason to kick out post WWII immigrants. You can put forward points against the formation of israel but to propose that a state be populated only be the people who live there at the formation is foolish.

Once you accept that, you also have to accept the reality of the existence of israel. It is there and it is there to stay, now logically what is the best course of action for Palestinians? I would say that negotiation aimed at the formation of a Palestinian state is the best way forward for them. As this isn't happening we can only assume that they either don't want to go forward or they have unrealistic expectations including the dismantling of israel.

No terrorism in israel is good for tourism, if israel and a Palestinian state existed side by side in peace they would both have a flourishing economy. I blame the Palestinian side and their so called friends in the Arab world for their own misfortunes in the long term.

[Waranle]

The Partition was made by the UN without consenting the Palestinians. How would u feel if they decided to give half of the United States to Mexico? If America decided to give a slice of terrirtory for the creation of israel then no one would care but they took land that other people were living in already. I dont care how much suffering they claim to have gone through, that does not give them the right to take more than half of someone else's country.

Once you accept that, you also have to accept the reality of the existence of israel. It is there and it is there to stay

The crusaders thought they were going to be in Palestine forever too, but where are they now?

[Ozymandias]

The crusaders thought they were going to be in Palestine forever too, but where are they now?

Interesting that you would bring up the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem. I personally think that the closest historical parallel to israel IS the old crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem...and israel will inevitably meet the same fate.

[cogito]

The Partition was made by the UN without consenting the Palestinians. How would u feel if they decided to give half of the United States to Mexico? If America decided to give a slice of terrirtory for the creation of israel then no one would care but they took land that other people were living in already. I dont care how much suffering they claim to have gone through, that does not give them the right to take more than half of someone else's country.
The crusaders thought they were going to be in Palestine forever too, but where are they now?

So basically your stance is that the arabs living in Palestine in 1948 deserved a homeland but the 500 000 to 1 000 000 jews living there didn't. Right that isn't hypocritical at all. The partitions did consider the Palestinians, if they had accepted the plan israel took up then Jersulam would have been an international city entirely inside their territory. Now because of their reluctance to accept the partition any future Palestinian state will not contain Jerusalem.

Your point about the crusaders illustrates one of my points about long terms dreams of the destruction of israel that terrorist organisations and many palestinians harbour. Fine in 400 years israel might not exist, do you want to keep fighting until then though?

[Ozymandias]

Your point about the crusaders illustrates one of my points about long terms dreams of the destruction of israel that terrorist organisations and many palestinians harbour. Fine in 400 years israel might not exist, do you want to keep fighting until then though?

If you had studied the history of the crusades, as I am sure you have not, you would see that there was one major factor that led to the destuction of the crusader kingdom. And that factor was the fanaticism of people such as Reynauld de Chatillon and his ilk who engaged in repeated violations of truces and treaties, eventually forcing Saladin bin Ayubbi to take punitive action. Otherwise, the kingdom of Jerusalem may well have been integrated into the fabric of the Middle East. Similarly, it is the hardline zionists, the christian rapturists/zionists and such people who will cause the destruction of israel...in short, your buddies.