180 replies to this topic

[00salaam871]

Peace

I didn't say that, stop putting words into my mouth.

Yes, You DID. Here's the Proof:

As I already said, a person who practiced as a Muslim would get the death penalty, it doesn't matter if it was due to peer pressure.

If I am misinterpreting that in some way, then please answer me this.....

Do you agree that a person born and raised as a muslim (practiced Islam outwardly but never believed it inwardly) but who did it due to peer pressure, should NOT be killed?

If your answer to this question is no, then you have seemingly contradicted your statement that:

I didn't say that, stop putting words into my mouth.

Salaams

[00salaam871]

(I cant edit because I dont have enough posts)

Correction of my previous post.

If I am misinterpreting that in some way, then please answer me this.....

Do you agree that a person born and raised as a muslim (practiced Islam outwardly but never believed it inwardly) but who did it due to peer pressure, should NOT be killed?

I meant to say:

If I am misinterpreting that in some way, then please answer me this.....

Do you agree that a person born and raised as a muslim (practiced Islam outwardly but never believed it inwardly) but who did it due to peer pressure, should NOT be killed [b] if he leaves Islam for good?[b]

[Younes]

Peace

Wa alaikum salam

As for my quote, I meant an adult, a person who has practiced Islam in adulthood.

Yes, You DID. Here's the Proof:
If I am misinterpreting that in some way, then please answer me this.....

Do you agree that a person born and raised as a muslim (practiced Islam outwardly but never believed it inwardly) but who did it due to peer pressure, should NOT be killed?

Yes, he should be killed if practiced Islam in adulthood due to whatever reason. He won't be held accountable for what he did in childhood.

[Isambard]

Cute. From what I know the Qur'an is considered infallible while there is some debate over which hadiths are considered legit. So yes follow Muhammed's teachings the Qur'an says but I think you need to think twice about the teachings which contradict *God*.

[00salaam871]

Peace

he should be killed if practiced Islam in adulthood due to whatever reason. He won't be held accountable for what he did in childhood.

The scholars contradict you. Are you aware that the majority scholar opinion dictates that WHOMEVER leaves Islam, for whatever reason , is to be killed? Currently, the interpretation of Islamic Law prescribes the death penalty even for children who leave Islam once they reach adulthood.

He won't be held accountable for what he did in childhood

Secondly, define childhood. Where does it say in the Qur'an or Hadith, that it is OK for a person to leave Islam once he/she reaches adulthood? Did Muhammad(pbuh) say that it's Ok for people to leave Islam once they reach 18? 21? 30?

Do you agree with this?


Note: I DO support the permissability of killing fully sane, adult apostates, if they (upon reaching adulthood) aknowledge and agree to the fact that the penalty for apostasy is death and that they should be killed if they ever apostasize.

Salaams

Edited by 00salaam871, 15 April 2007 - 12:45 AM.

[Younes]

Cute. From what I know the Qur'an is considered infallible while there is some debate over which hadiths are considered legit. So yes follow Muhammed's teachings the Qur'an says but I think you need to think twice about the teachings which contradict *God*.

Cute, but these hadiths are perfectly legit. It doesn't contradict what God says, only in your mind it does because you're interpretting the verse based on your own opinion. Plus, you know nothing about scriptural exegesis.

[Younes]

Peace

The scholars contradict you. Are you aware that the majority scholar opinion dictates that WHOMEVER leaves Islam, for whatever reason , is to be killed? Currently, Islamic Law prescribes the death penalty even for children who leave Islam once they reach adulthood.

Wa alaikum salam

Who's opinion do you think I'm representing here? I don't think you understand who have come up with this ruling. A child is not accountable if he steals or even fornicates. A child is not accountable for apostasy. The word "whoever" has a context, stop being so damn literalist. Islamic Law, the past and the current ones, prescribe death for adult Muslim apostates.

Secondly, define childhood. Where does it say in the Qur'an or Hadith, that it is OK for a person to leave Islam once he/she reaches adulthood? Did Muhammad(pbuh) say that it's Ok for people to leave Islam once they reach 18? 21? 30?

Childhood is before puberty. Puberty=adulthood. It is said in a Hadith which says that you once enter puberty you are accountable for your sins and crimes. If you are child you won't get punished for theft, but if you have entered puberty and you are a sane person, you get punished. The Prophet(pbuh) said that people become accountable at the time they enter adulthood.

Do you agree with this?

Obviously I do.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 15 April 2007 - 12:48 AM.

[Younes]

Note: I DO support the permissability of killing fully sane, adult apostates, if they (upon reaching adulthood) aknowledge and agree to the fact that the penalty for apostasy is death and that they should be killed if they ever apostasize.

Wa alaikum salam

Then I don't know why we are debating about this since it is the Islamic position, also mine and yours. There has been a misunderstanding.

[Isambard]

Cute, but these hadiths are perfectly legit. It doesn't contradict what God says, only in your mind it does because you're interpretting the verse based on your own opinion. Plus, you know nothing about scriptural exegesis.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Hadith#Views"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Hadith#Views[/url]

Would seem there is no universal for hadith authentication and what you just said is *your opinion*.

I still dont know how you dont see the contradiction. Allah says Islam is not to be forced as well as oppression is bad.

Lets see definition of coercion "Coercion is the practice of compelling a person to involuntarily behave in a certain way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. Coercion may typically involve the actual infliction of physical or psychological harm in order to enhance the credibility of a threat. The threat of further harm may then lead to the cooperation or obedience of the person being coerced."

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Coercion"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Coercion[/url]

Hmm I dunno if an adult Muslim were to stop being muslim outwardly he gets killed. Id say thats a big threat wouldnt you? Hell it is even oppressive if you think about as he/she is forced to act a certain way or be faced with an unpleasant death.

See the contradiction now?

[Younes]

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Hadith#Views"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Hadith#Views[/url]

Would seem there is no universal for hadith authentication and what you just said is *your opinion*.

To the ignorant who know nothing about the subject there is no universal for hadith authentication. They are people who have never researched Hadith science, are only speaking just to discredit Islam or don't know how the Hadith science works. Among qualified individuals there are no doubts to which Hadith is right and which is very. Yes, opinion backed up with evidence, I quoted from a Hadith source that Muslims view as 100% authentic.

I still dont know how you dont see the contradiction. Allah says Islam is not to be forced as well as oppression is bad.

Islam isn't to be forced on non-Muslims. This is the context of the verse according to every Qur'anic exegete. Apostates are to be punished, after they are deemed true apostates there is no point in forcing anything on them except punishment.

Hmm I dunno if an adult Muslim were to stop being muslim outwardly he gets killed. Id say thats a big threat wouldnt you? Hell it is even oppressive if you think about as he/she is forced to act a certain way or be faced with an unpleasant death.

It is a big threat. He is just "forced" to act in a non-Muslim way that's all. Although if he ever had a scholarly discussion his apostasy would be evident if he doesn't know how to hide it very well
.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 15 April 2007 - 01:33 AM.

[MajidM]

Islam isn't to be forced on non-Muslims. This is the context of the verse according to every Qur'anic exegete. Apostates are to be punished, after they are deemed true apostates there is no point in forcing anything on them except punishment.

Alright, then the term "no compulsion in religion" is no longer applicable with Islam. It should be revised to "no compulsion in religion, unless you're an apostate, at which point you're stoned to death." Then, and only then would there be no contradiction.

[00salaam871]

Peace

Then I don't know why we are debating about this since it is the Islamic position, also mine and yours. There has been a misunderstanding.

I dont think we fully agree with eachother and here's why. I believe it is the right of every child born into muslim family/society to be offered a choice once he/she enters adulthood (but at what age is adulthood?). That choice is either remain muslim and face death if you ever apostasize, or leave Islam now and suffer no punishment at all. Do you agree with this view?

Salaams

[freeasabird]

I would, God-willing, remain Muslim even if it meant getting punished by death. I trust you'd do the same.
As I already said, a person who practiced as a Muslim would get the death penalty, it doesn't matter if it was due to peer pressure.
I didn't say that I wouldn't object another country rejecting Muslim's right to practice. Leaving is one of the choices, yes.
Yes, I live in "the West". I object to the Western values and policies but they don't bother me to the point that it would constitute disbelief to live under their rule, but I won't stay here forever, it's only that at this point I'm incapable of leaving.

The people of Iraq should fight, since it is their Land.

I don't know why we are even debating this, it is Islamic Law, God's command, case closed.

I find it hilarious yet worrying that you people accept this. It's like a Monty Python sketch.
There was a thread on here once boasting that Islam is the fastest growing religion - not difficult to work out really if once your in you can't leave!! LOL!!!


I like your conviction. You don't approve of the west but your happy to leech off it - typically muslim. It's time we started shipping you out to muslim lands, instead of having you pollute our lands with your filthy religion.


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[Younes]

Alright, then the term "no compulsion in religion" is no longer applicable with Islam. It should be revised to "no compulsion in religion, unless you're an apostate, at which point you're stoned to death." Then, and only then would there be no contradiction.

I don't know if you are aware of this but there are verses which say: "Kill them where ever you find". Now, yóu might go like "but we aren't allowed to", however I will agree with you that we are not allowed to kill Pagans wherever we find them because this verse was revealed concerning a specific people - the Pagan Arabs. And more specifically Pagan Arabs at the time when they were at war with Muslims. Now, you probably understand that a verse has a context in which it is revealed.

"There is no compulsion" means that you can't force anyone to change their beliefs or to make them enter Islam. It doesn't mean you don't rule by the laws that God has revealed to govern society. Seriously, if you wanted to compel someone to Islam you'd just torture him till he gives up. The punishment for apostasy is not to compel anyone, it is there to punish.

According to you, then, you can't enact ANY law because that's "compulsion".

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 15 April 2007 - 03:00 PM.

[Younes]

I find it hilarious yet worrying that you people accept this. It's like a Monty Python sketch.
There was a thread on here once boasting that Islam is the fastest growing religion - not difficult to work out really if once your in you can't leave!! LOL!!!

Idiotic remarks, since over in Europe and the USA there is no Caliphate and it still grows there.

I like your conviction. You don't approve of the west but your happy to leech off it - typically muslim. It's time we started shipping you out to muslim lands, instead of having you pollute our lands with your filthy religion.

Another stupid remark. I don't approve of the West's action in regards to some minor aspects. Certainly, you don't approve of every single thing your goverment does? Plus, I don't consider myself to be leeching off it, I'm originally Western.

Call yourself a Christian? I'd like to see your commentary on these passages:

And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about
three thousand men. (Exodus 27-29)

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from israel.

And Moses said unto the judges of israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

6 And, behold, one of the children of israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

8 And he went after the man of israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of israel, and the woman through her belly. (Num 25:4-8)

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 15 April 2007 - 10:46 AM.

[Younes]

Peace
I dont think we fully agree with eachother and here's why. I believe it is the right of every child born into muslim family/society to be offered a choice once he/she enters adulthood (but at what age is adulthood?). That choice is either remain muslim and face death if you ever apostasize, or leave Islam now and suffer no punishment at all. Do you agree with this view?

Wa alaikum salam

At what age does adulthood begin? At puberty or at the age of 15 even if you haven't reached puberty. Your suggestion about offering/proposing Muslim children the choice to apostasize when entering adulthood has no basis in the Sunnah nor 1400 years of Islamic scholarship. I reject this view.

[Redeem]

fascist state indeed. One of the reasons I'm not sympathetic towards the hardships of many muslims is that their belief system is bent on oppressing non believers. It's hard to sympathize with people who'd approve of killing those that left.

Yes, because most of those Muslims who are starving, dying of diseases, and living in the worst conditions imaginable are "bent on oppressing non believers".

I like your conviction. You don't approve of the west but your happy to leech off it - typically muslim. It's time we started shipping you out to muslim lands, instead of having you pollute our lands with your filthy religion.

Bigotry at its best. Gotta admire people with guts (among other things).

And how many things have YOU done for the west? Opened any orphanages lately? Led campaigns to clean up the environment? Thought of an invention or discovery that'll make the lives of westerners easier? You're just another average Joe, leeching off the west with the lame excuse that you "belong there". How amusing.

Salam.

[Redeem]

By the by, public declaration of apostasy = treason. Treason is a capital offense in many countries. Let's not be hypocrites here.

Salam.

[00salaam871]

At what age does adulthood begin? At puberty or at the age of 15 even if you haven't reached puberty. Your suggestion about offering/proposing Muslim children the choice to apostasize when entering adulthood has no basis in the Sunnah nor 1400 years of Islamic scholarship. I reject this view.

By this type of thinking, a child who is born into a muslim family/society is "stuck" and he can never leave. He cannot really choose a belief or a religion by himself, because eversince he was little, his parents/society made him practice Islam and he can never leave. That is Pure Compulsion

Treason is a capital offense in many countries

You give a different meaning to the word treason. Having different beliefs than the majority does not constitute treason in any country I am aware of.

Salaams

Edited by 00salaam871, 15 April 2007 - 08:04 PM.

[Redeem]

Is there any reason that certain members in this topic seem to have "Islam" on their profile yet oppose the teachings of this religion? Because, I'm baffled at this point.

Salam.