180 replies to this topic

[JCBeliever]

No. It is there to prevent the worst sin, rejection of God. It is treated with uttermost concern, you get to have a three day discussion with scholars to get all your questions answered etc. You can also leave the State, that is the obvious choice, even Muslims have to leave a country if they are forbidden to pray there for example.

If a man apostazises from Islam and becomes a Jew or Christian, and still loves God above all things, how can you claim that is apostasy against God? As long as someone believes in and loves the one God, they can't have rejected God. Some people don't believe correctly in God, but is that grounds to kill them?
In your faith, to insult or reject Muhammed is about equal to rejecting or insulting God. Is that fair?

Bigotry at its best. Gotta admire people with guts (among other things).

And how many things have YOU done for the west? Opened any orphanages lately? Led campaigns to clean up the environment? Thought of an invention or discovery that'll make the lives of westerners easier? You're just another average Joe, leeching off the west with the lame excuse that you "belong there". How amusing.

At least the worst thing a Christian can do is say words. Where in this world are Christian apostazisers to Islam killed? This kind of thing further gives me the impression that Christianity is a holy, pure religion from God. What men under the Cross have done in the past that seems cruel, we can say is not attributed to the Apostles or Christ, or supported in the Gospels and Letters.

[MajidM]

By the by, public declaration of apostasy = treason. Treason is a capital offense in many countries. Let's not be hypocrites here.

Treason implies willingly cooperating with known emenies of a state with the sole purpose of undermining its authority. How one can consider a personal belief system to constitute treason is beyond me. Apostacy is not an action against the state, it is simply an individual's decision.

[Duffman_]

Is there any reason that certain members in this topic seem to have "Islam" on their profile yet oppose the teachings of this religion? Because, I'm baffled at this point.

Salam.

Maybe they are apostates who just slipped up while trying to save their own hide while maintaining the Islam label. Now you know they don't really believe in Islam and probably plan on leaving it! Better make the proper arrangments to kill them eh?


...Alot of the posts in this thread make me sick *duffman adds it to the list of things he hates about religion*

[Younes]

By this type of thinking, a child who is born into a muslim family/society is "stuck" and he can never leave. He cannot really choose a belief or a religion by himself, because eversince he was little, his parents/society made him practice Islam and he can never leave. That is Pure Compulsion

Nobody can make you practice Islam, if you are forced to practice Islam then you can bring it up in court and you won't be punished, but if you've been practicing as an adult just because others are practicing then you are foolish and will be punished.

You give a different meaning to the word treason. Having different beliefs than the majority does not constitute treason in any country I am aware of.

Islamic State is ran by God's Law, not by the laws of other countries.

[Younes]

If a man apostazises from Islam and becomes a Jew or Christian, and still loves God above all things, how can you claim that is apostasy against God? As long as someone believes in and loves the one God, they can't have rejected God. Some people don't believe correctly in God, but is that grounds to kill them?
In your faith, to insult or reject Muhammed is about equal to rejecting or insulting God. Is that fair?

It is apostasy against God. Satan refused to bow down to Adam(pbuh) by God's command, yet he still believes and knows that God exists, and he is an apostate of the worst kind. If somebody doesn't believe God "correctly" and he has never been a Muslim, he won't be punished. As for a person who has believed and has acted like he has, that person will be punished.

In my faith insulting or rejecting any Prophet amounts to rejecting God. That is why the People of Noah(pbuh) rejected the Messengers(pbut) although just one had come to them. Is it fair? Yes. If you reject or insult Jesus(pbuh) or Moses(pbuh) you are an apostate.

At least the worst thing a Christian can do is say words. Where in this world are Christian apostazisers to Islam killed? This kind of thing further gives me the impression that Christianity is a holy, pure religion from God. What men under the Cross have done in the past that seems cruel, we can say is not attributed to the Apostles or Christ, or supported in the Gospels and Letters.

It wouldn't matter if Christian apostates who have turned to Islam would be killed because they would not die, they would be in Paradise. Whereas a Muslim apostate will be doomed to Hell. Plus, if there was an Islamic State, it would wage war against those Christian states.

So, Judaism which you consider originally to have been from God, is not a pure and holy religion? Can anybody say double standards? Killing apostates is supported by Moses(pbuh) and the Law God gave to him. Surely, you won't suggest that your opinion is better than what Moses(pbuh), the one to whom God spoke directly and is one of the nearest ones to God, brought?

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 16 April 2007 - 11:44 AM.

[Younes]

Is there any reason that certain members in this topic seem to have "Islam" on their profile yet oppose the teachings of this religion? Because, I'm baffled at this point.

Salam.

Wa alaikum salam

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee(Muhammed) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

If We had ordered them to sacrifice their lives or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it: But if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them, and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith); (004.065-66)

Indeed, people have to choose their words carefully. In the worst case denial of the Islamic Law results in apostasy.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 16 April 2007 - 11:43 AM.

[leics23]

So one thing everyone can agree with then is that there is compulsion in Islam

[Redeem]

Maybe they are apostates who just slipped up while trying to save their own hide while maintaining the Islam label. Now you know they don't really believe in Islam and probably plan on leaving it! Better make the proper arrangments to kill them eh?

If you were going for funny, ya got me!

But don't insult Muslims by calling them apostates. I don't think they'd appreciate it. I certainly wouldn't.

Salam.

[JCBeliever]

It is apostasy against God. Satan refused to bow down to Adam(pbuh) by God's command, yet he still believes and knows that God exists, and he is an apostate of the worst kind. If somebody doesn't believe God "correctly" and he has never been a Muslim, he won't be punished. As for a person who has believed and has acted like he has, that person will be punished.

Satan hates God, and tries all kinds of things to hurt God and mankind. A faithful Christian or Jew would claim to love God and do love God above all things. It can't be said they are terrible people who hate God.

In my faith insulting or rejecting any Prophet amounts to rejecting God. That is why the People of Noah(pbuh) rejected the Messengers(pbut) although just one had come to them. Is it fair? Yes. If you reject or insult Jesus(pbuh) or Moses(pbuh) you are an apostate.

Christians put Jesus on part with God, but you don't put Muhammed on par with God, so to say an insult against Muhammed is as bad as an insult against God is very unusual. Maybe you guys are no different than Christians, you just don't believe Muhammed is divine. You give him a huge cult status that almost equals, minus the divinity, Jesus's status in Christianity.

It wouldn't matter if Christian apostates who have turned to Islam would be killed because they would not die, they would be in Paradise. Whereas a Muslim apostate will be doomed to Hell. Plus, if there was an Islamic State, it would wage war against those Christian states.

The Quran says three times that Jews, Magians, Sabeans, and Christians will be judged and can enter Paradise. So, not necessarily. I could go to your Heaven if my good deeds outweigh bad deeds, right? It may be a lower heaven, you believe in many levels of heaven and hell, right?

So, Judaism which you consider originally to have been from God, is not a pure and holy religion? Can anybody say double standards? Killing apostates is supported by Moses(pbuh) and the Law God gave to him. Surely, you won't suggest that your opinion is better than what Moses(pbuh), the one to whom God spoke directly and is one of the nearest ones to God, brought?

What makes Moses's words superior to the prophet Jeremiah, Isaiah, Samuel, Solomon, Ezekiel, Elijah, Eliza, Ezra, Nehemiah, Noah, Adam, Joseph, Jacob, Abraham, John the Baptist, Zechariah, etc. None of these other Prophets who upheld the laws of God administered such punishments. It's because God does not favor apostasy laws. Christianity did not retain them either.

[JCBeliever]

If you were going for funny, ya got me!

But don't insult Muslims by calling them apostates. I don't think they'd appreciate it. I certainly wouldn't.

Salam.

I find it interesting that Muslims in foreign lands can practice Taqqiya, such as during the Spanish reconquest of Muslim Spain, and deny Islam in front of everyone and pretend to follow other religions, and apparently this isn't treason. No other religion can support that way of life. In Christianity, to deny Jesus in front of everyone to save one's life is to deny salvation. That's why these Christian apostates of Islam are caught, they can't hide their beliefs.

[Younes]

Satan hates God, and tries all kinds of things to hurt God and mankind. A faithful Christian or Jew would claim to love God and do love God above all things. It can't be said they are terrible people who hate God.

Satan didn't hate God before He ordered him to bow to Adam(pbuh), Satan hated God BECAUSE he was ordered to bow. It doesn't matter if you love God and you reject His Laws and commandements and Prophets(pbut), your love is in vain, it is not true love.

Christians put Jesus on part with God, but you don't put Muhammed on par with God, so to say an insult against Muhammed is as bad as an insult against God is very unusual. Maybe you guys are no different than Christians, you just don't believe Muhammed is divine. You give him a huge cult status that almost equals, minus the divinity, Jesus's status in Christianity.

Insulting Muhammed(pbuh) is on the same level as insulting God because both are kufr. That goes for all Prophets(pbut), not just Muhammed(pbuh). That thing about a cult was extremely stupid.

The Quran says three times that Jews, Magians, Sabeans, and Christians will be judged and can enter Paradise. So, not necessarily. I could go to your Heaven if my good deeds outweigh bad deeds, right? It may be a lower heaven, you believe in many levels of heaven and hell, right?

The verse you've quoted above, actually refers to Jews and Christians living during their respective times, following what God revealed to Moses and Jesus (pbuh) respectively. That is, the Jews living in the time between Moses and Jesus, and the Christians living between the time of Jesus and Muhammad (pbut) who were actually adhering to what God revealed.

However, a Jew who rejected Jesus's (pbuh) prophecy, EVEN IF he had been adhering to what Moses (pbuh) had been on, will have rejected faith and incurred the wrath of God.

The moment God makes revelations to another Prophet, those who reject him have nullified their deeds.

No, you will never enter Paradise unless you become a Muslim, since you have been exposed to the Truth.

What makes Moses's words superior to the prophet Jeremiah, Isaiah, Samuel, Solomon, Ezekiel, Elijah, Eliza, Ezra, Nehemiah, Noah, Adam, Joseph, Jacob, Abraham, John the Baptist, Zechariah, etc. None of these other Prophets who upheld the laws of God administered such punishments. It's because God does not favor apostasy laws. Christianity did not retain them either.

I'm starting to think that you don't know the Bible at all. Moses(pbuh)'s Torah is considered to be the most superior Revelátion in Judaism.

And there arose not a prophet since in israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, (Deuteronomy 34:10)

If you believe in the OT, that goes for Jesus(pbuh) too.

Maybe your next arguement will be that Moses(pbuh) was not a Prophet(pbuh)? Face it, you are in denial.

Plus the very fact that a pretty much every one of those Prophets(pbut) advice people to FOLLOW the Law of Moses, makes me really question your judgement.

Malachi 3:23 Remember the Torah of Moses My servant, which I commanded him at Horeb for all of israel -- [its] decrees and [its] statutes. (Artscroll)

This is what the last Prophet of the OT says about the Torah. Nobody advocated changing the Law of Moses. Why? Because they were all for it.

PS: Have you read the OT from cover to cover?

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 16 April 2007 - 08:22 PM.

[Younes]

I find it interesting that Muslims in foreign lands can practice Taqqiya, such as during the Spanish reconquest of Muslim Spain, and deny Islam in front of everyone and pretend to follow other religions, and apparently this isn't treason. No other religion can support that way of life. In Christianity, to deny Jesus in front of everyone to save one's life is to deny salvation. That's why these Christian apostates of Islam are caught, they can't hide their beliefs.

Those who deny Islam in front of everyone are non-Muslims if they don't repent.

Stop living the Apostolic times or atleast what the NT tells you they are supposed to be. Most Christians will happily deny Christianity if under threat, but I guess they aren't real Christians, whatever that means.

[JCBeliever]

Satan didn't hate God before He ordered him to bow to Adam(pbuh), Satan hated God BECAUSE he was ordered to bow. It doesn't matter if you love God and you reject His Laws and commandements and Prophets(pbut), your love is in vain, it is not true love.

So for a Jew or Christian to love God above all things and struggles in his life to serve God and an atheist who believes God is a big joke and cares nothing about His existence, there is no difference between those two people???

Insulting Muhammed(pbuh) is on the same level as insulting God because both are kufr. That goes for all Prophets(pbut), not just Muhammed(pbuh). That thing about a cult was extremely stupid.

I didn't call Islam a cult, okay. You have to read what I said, I'd hate to get kicked off this forum. I said that you put such emphasis on Muhammed as a person, if a sin against Muhammed is a sin against God. If the point of Islam is to worship the one God purely and simply, than not agreeing with everything Muhammed said and did shouldn't be a serious blaspheme. In Christianity, Jesus is divine and you have to believe certain things. But in Islam ands Judaism, you don't have to agree with everything the Prophets did. Once, some children called the prophet Eliza "baldie", and he was upset and sent a bear to attack and kill some of the kids. I don't agree that was a good thing, what the prophet did. Also, I don't believe it was right that the prophet Solomon slept with pagan women sacrificed to their gods to please them. Also, I disagree with David falling in love with Bathsheba, another man's wife. A Muslim may disagree with Muhammed and Umar killing apostates and stoning adulteresses. You have the God-given right to disagree with when men do. Muhammed and the others were all men. Jesus was more than a man and is an exception (to Christians).

A man in Pakistan shouldn't have been arrested for insulting Muhammed. I read some interesting story online, don't remember what was said. Those allegations may even be made up, but if they weren't, should that guy be arrested for that?

The verse you've quoted above, actually refers to Jews and Christians living during their respective times, following what God revealed to Moses and Jesus (pbuh) respectively. That is, the Jews living in the time between Moses and Jesus, and the Christians living between the time of Jesus and Muhammad (pbut) who were actually adhering to what God revealed.

I don't think the Quran makes that distinction, but okay this is your holy book.

However, a Jew who rejected Jesus's (pbuh) prophecy, EVEN IF he had been adhering to what Moses (pbuh) had been on, will have rejected faith and incurred the wrath of God.

The moment God makes revelations to another Prophet, those who reject him have nullified their deeds.

No, you will never enter Paradise unless you become a Muslim, since you have been exposed to the Truth.

I am still folllowing God's revelation. There's no Muhammed in my prophetic tradition. Only things about the Messiah.

I'm starting to think that you don't know the Bible at all. Moses(pbuh)'s Torah is considered to be the most superior Revelátion in Judaism.

And there arose not a prophet since in israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, (Deuteronomy 34:10)

If you believe in the OT, that goes for Jesus(pbuh) too.

Maybe your next arguement will be that Moses(pbuh) was not a Prophet(pbuh)? Face it, you are in denial.

Plus the very fact that a pretty much every one of those Prophets(pbut) advice people to FOLLOW the Law of Moses, makes me really question your judgement.

Malachi 3:23 Remember the Torah of Moses My servant, which I commanded him at Horeb for all of israel -- [its] decrees and [its] statutes. (Artscroll)

This is what the last Prophet of the OT says about the Torah. Nobody advocated changing the Law of Moses. Why? Because they were all for it.

PS: Have you read the OT from cover to cover?

Have I read the entire OT? No, but I have read most of it throughout my life. I don't recall apostates being killed after Exodus. If you are such a scholar of the Bible, maybe you can show me hwere the other Prophets administered those punishments. If every apostate was killed, there would not be any Jews left! Thet all practiced pagan rites during the rule of corrupted kings. Only a small minority didn't. Later the Jews started writing the Talmud and stopped following alot of laws. They were deemed out-dated. Also, Christians never had apostasy laws and look how far Christianity went. The empire that sought to eradicate it became it! Because God came to Constantine the Great in a divine Revelation and gave him a sign.

Those who deny Islam in front of everyone are non-Muslims if they don't repent.

Stop living the Apostolic times or atleast what the NT tells you they are supposed to be. Most Christians will happily deny Christianity if under threat, but I guess they aren't real Christians, whatever that means.

Then what is taqqiya?

Edited by JCBeliever, 16 April 2007 - 08:57 PM.

[Younes]

So for a Jew or Christian to love God above all things and struggles in his life to serve God and an atheist who believes God is a big joke and cares nothing about His existence, there is no difference between those two people???

A Christian and a Jew who aren't exposed to Islam still have a chance of entering Paradise. I say only a chance because there's a 50/50 chance they'll go there, even an Athiest who hasn't been exposed to the Truth has a chance of entering Paradise. As for Christians, Jews and Athiests who have been exposed they are just like Pharaoh.

I didn't call Islam a cult, okay. You have to read what I said, I'd hate to get kicked off this forum. I said that you put such emphasis on Muhammed as a person, if a sin against Muhammed is a sin against God. If the point of Islam is to worship the one God purely and simply, than not agreeing with everything Muhammed said and did shouldn't be a serious blaspheme. A man in Pakistan shouldn't have been arrested for tearing pages out of the Quran, or insulting Muhammed. I read some interesting story online. Those allegations may even be made up, but if they weren't, should that guy be arrested for that?

Your comment was stupid. Yes, that person should be arrested and should be penalized if he doesn't repent after a three-day scholarly discussion.

I don't think the Quran makes that distinction, but okay this is your holy book.

If there's something you should've learned by now is that the only evidence in Islam is not only the Qur'an.

I am still folllowing God's revelation. There's no Muhammed in my prophetic tradition. Only things about the Messiah.

You are not following God's Revelation. Your god-Messiah or the Jewish Messiah?

Have I read the entire OT? No, but I have read most of it throughout my life. I don't recall apostates being killed after Exodus. If you are such a scholar of the Bible, maybe you can show me hwere the other Prophets administered those punishments. If every apostate was killed, there would not be any Jews left! Thet all practiced pagan rites during the rule of corrupted kings. Only a small minority didn't. Later the Jews started writing the Talmud and stopped following alot of laws. They were deemed out-dated. Also, Christians never had apostasy laws and look how far Christianity went. The empire that sought to eradicate it became it! Because God came to Constantine the Great in a divine Revelation and gave him a sign.

You don't recall apostates being killed after Exodus? Then why does God command the killing of apostates in Deuteronomy? In jest?

I don't care what is supposed to happen to the Jews, do you think that a single Prophet is going to kill a whole nation? It still puzzles me how could Judaism or the Torah been preserved among a nation that was only idolaters?

Don't talk about a topic of which you have no knowledge, you'll be exposed in a sec. The Talmud advocates and encourages following ALL the Torah Laws.

I don't care about Constantine. Besides, he is deemed a Pagan by modern scholars.

Then what is taqqiya?

Search for its meaning elsewhere, it has nothing to do with Sunni Islam.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 16 April 2007 - 09:07 PM.

[Redeem]

Irrelevant.

Edited by Layna, 16 April 2007 - 11:51 PM.

[JCBeliever]

A Christian and a Jew who aren't exposed to Islam still have a chance of entering Paradise. I say only a chance because there's a 50/50 chance they'll go there, even an Athiest who hasn't been exposed to the Truth has a chance of entering Paradise. As for Christians, Jews and Athiests who have been exposed they are just like Pharaoh.

Christians believe similarly, but Jews are special because they worship the same God as Christians. You are out of my Judeo-Christian tradition, so to recognize Islam as worshipping the same God as Judaism and Christianity is not easy. Many religions claim to worship the same God as I, but they are not a part of the traditions I believe in.

Your comment was stupid. Yes, that person should be arrested and should be penalized if he doesn't repent after a three-day scholarly discussion.

You think it's stupid that we shouldn't question what men say and do? Men cannot be put on par with God, unless they are God.

You are not following God's Revelation. Your god-Messiah or the Jewish Messiah?

Both. Sometimes the Bible says God Himself is our King, sometimes the Messiah or "Holy One of God" is this same King.

You don't recall apostates being killed after Exodus? Then why does God command the killing of apostates in Deuteronomy? In jest?

I don't care what is supposed to happen to the Jews, do you think that a single Prophet is going to kill a whole nation? It still puzzles me how could Judaism or the Torah been preserved among a nation that was only idolaters?

Don't talk about a topic of which you have no knowledge, you'll be exposed in a sec. The Talmud advocates and encourages following ALL the Torah Laws.

Deuteronomy, excuse me. After that, I don't think apostates were killed.
Jews did stop various laws, you just ask any Jew. I mean, they couldn't sacrifice at the Temple past 70 AD! Jews believe that many of their laws were outdated. A faith should have some flexibility with changes in time, and changes in society. Today women can be equal with men in all ways, Christianity can support this in all but a very few instances. People can change their religions whenever to whatever without punishments in Christianity. Do you think this makes Christianity better than Islam in some ways? God is all about free choice, this is a part of my faith. It has done well, #1 is the top slot .

I don't care about Constantine. Besides, he is deemed a Pagan by modern scholars.
Search for its meaning elsewhere, it has nothing to do with Sunni Islam.

He had a unique experience like Paul had. Was it Jesus or a Jinn, I'd go with Jesus. God works in mysterious ways to accomplish His Will, and I believe only God Himself can administer His Laws, men can't seem to handle them. Islam would be more "humane" if it had less written laws and was more like Christianity.

Irrelevant.

I thought Muslims could practice taqqiya, Sunnis too. That seems like "cheating".

Edited by JCBeliever, 17 April 2007 - 03:10 AM.

[00salaam871]

Nobody can make you practice Islam, if you are forced to practice Islam then you can bring it up in court and you won't be punished, but if you've been practicing as an adult just because others are practicing then you are foolish and will be punished.

The above comment and the below comment seem to totally contradict eachother. You previously stated:

Your suggestion about offering/proposing Muslim children the choice to apostasize when entering adulthood has no basis in the Sunnah nor 1400 years of Islamic scholarship. I reject this view.

Which one is it?

Salaams

[Younes]

The above comment and the below comment seem to totally contradict eachother. You previously stated:
Which one is it?

Salaams

Wa alaikum salam

They are not in contradiction. If you have been forced, and I mean really forced by threats, violence, blackmailing etc. , to practice Islam countrary to your will, you won't be punished. However, if you have been practicing due to "social pressure" you are executed.

[Younes]

Christians believe similarly, but Jews are special because they worship the same God as Christians. You are out of my Judeo-Christian tradition, so to recognize Islam as worshipping the same God as Judaism and Christianity is not easy. Many religions claim to worship the same God as I, but they are not a part of the traditions I believe in.

The irony is of course that Jews consider the Islamic concept of God to be monotheism just like in Judaism and the Christian concept of God to be idolatery. If the Jews admit that our God is the same God then why can't you?

You think it's stupid that we shouldn't question what men say and do? Men cannot be put on par with God, unless they are God.

Do you know what the concept of Prophethood is? Prophets(pbut) represent God on Earth. Whoever is an enemy to His Prophets(pbut), every one of them, or to His Angels(pbut) is an enemy to God. Nobody is on the same level as God.

Both. Sometimes the Bible says God Himself is our King, sometimes the Messiah or "Holy One of God" is this same King.

Then why aren't Jews believing in this concept of God? Why do they think that Messiah(pbuh) is a normal human being and not Divine?

Deuteronomy, excuse me. After that, I don't think apostates were killed.

Do you even read what I quote or link you to?

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. (Deut. 17:2-5)

It is not telling the story of a person who is killed for apostasy, it is a LAW just like "Thou shall not murder" is a LAW. Please, save us both time and tell me if you don't read what I post.

Jews did stop various laws, you just ask any Jew. I mean, they couldn't sacrifice at the Temple past 70 AD! Jews believe that many of their laws were outdated. A faith should have some flexibility with changes in time, and changes in society. Today women can be equal with men in all ways, Christianity can support this in all but a very few instances. People can change their religions whenever to whatever without punishments in Christianity. Do you think this makes Christianity better than Islam in some ways? God is all about free choice, this is a part of my faith. It has done well, #1 is the top slot .

The Jews have stopped the sacrifice at the temple because THERE IS NO TEMPLE. It's like saying that prayer while standing is not obligatory anymore because someone is crippled and CAN'T PRAY WHILE STANDING. The Jews, at least the Orthodox Jews, don't believe that their laws are outdated. You are either ignorant or just plain lying. What is this concept? God's Laws are outdated without no notice from Him? Do you know how stupid that sounds? It's like saying that the Laws of God are null and void because the world is a cold place today. THE LAWS OF GOD DON'T CHANGE EXCEPT IF A PROPHET COMES TO CHANGE THEM. I can't believe I'm explaining such a basic concept.

Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside?- Nay, Most of them are faithless. (002.100)

And the Jews say, `The Christians stand on nothing' and the Christians say, `The Jews stand on nothing;' while they both read the same book. Even thus said those, who had no knowledge, like what they say. But Allah shall judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they disagree. (002.113)


People couldn't change their religions whenever they wanted in Christianity, this is an outrageous lie. Besides, even if Christianity didn't mention punishment for apostasy it wouldn't be better than Islam.

The reason Christianity is number one is because you guys converted those Latin American Pagans with such a torture. Why such extreme methods?

He had a unique experience like Paul had. Was it Jesus or a Jinn, I'd go with Jesus. God works in mysterious ways to accomplish His Will, and I believe only God Himself can administer His Laws, men can't seem to handle them. Islam would be more "humane" if it had less written laws and was more like Christianity.

LOL. He probably didn't have such an unique experience because he forbade Christians to convert to Judaism. I guess the Christianity according to Constantine which is Trinitarism would be more "humane" if it had less written laws. I guess that also goes for Judaism which God according to you revealed.

Constantine instituted several legislative measures regarding the Jews: they were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves. Conversion of Christians to Judaism was outlawed. Congregations for religious services were restricted, but Jews were allowed to enter Jerusalem on Tisha B'Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple. Constantine also enforced the prohibition of the First Council of Nicaea against celebrating Easter on the day before the Jewish Passover (nisan xiv), i.e. Quartodecimanism, see also Easter controversy.[

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[/url]

I thought Muslims could practice taqqiya, Sunnis too. That seems like "cheating".

Don't care about your opinion, there is no lying about your faith in Islam.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, 17 April 2007 - 01:00 PM.

[Younes]

"The apostasy laws weren't practiced after Deuteronomy." Oh really?

Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

It seems that one doesn't even have to be initially worshipping the God of israel in order to be put to death (unlike the case with Islam, where people who are initially disbelievers would not be punished at all). I wonder what the Jewish interpretation is concerning this passage.

You must not find these passages too pleasing, do you JCBeliver?

Maybe next you'll adopt the Islamic position that the OT is unauthentic?