180 replies to this topic

[disabled0335]

Salaams peeps,

Duffman has asked me to post this on this thread for him, due to erm....technical difficulties he can't do it himself.

Depends....

...I'm suprised people such as yourself don't scare away potential converts when all you offer is a lifetime contract.

Its not barbaric because

I said I find it a certain way. That doesn't mean it is. Unless you want to start arguing about what I actually think is barbaric and what I don't think is barbaric there is no point in continuing a response to that thing I said. I'm pretty sure I know what I think.

You throw around blanket comments like this rather than specifying what values you don't agree with and why.

I don't see any benefit in a class of values and deciding which ones better. It's a subjective discussion which has no objective reality.

Why did they kill the Jews? Were their reasons valid?

They were claimed to be responsible for the economic woes of germany.


--------------------

The Atheist Delusion
Philosophy vs Religion

[disabled0335]

Salaams peeps,

...I'm suprised people such as yourself don't scare away potential converts when all you offer is a lifetime contract.

Well if they get scared by a lifetime contract then they havn't really understood Islam. Remember this is more than just a set of rules, this is the only religion accepted by God and has to be taken seriously. There is no 30 day trial period, or test drive.

Peace

[Yasnov]

Assalamu'alaikum Wr.Wb

Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz, what do you think of this article?

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetanswering-christianity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/apostates.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetanswering-christianity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/apostates.htm[/url]

Wassalam,
Yasnov

[Yasnov]

If anyone has anything to say on that article, please let me know ...

Wassalam,
Yasnov

[Yasnov]

It would be interesting to clarify further some statements in this thread. I'll be back tomorrow morning.

Wassalam,
Yasnov

[angelf]

Traditionalist Muslim scholars have long embraced classical positions on apostasy that consider the rejection of Islam as a capital crime, punishable by death. This position is taken from many reported Hadiths of the prophet. For instance, Bukhari reports a hadith stating that “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him”. (Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 84, No. 57). There are other hadiths that sanction the killing of apostates as one of three cases in which the blood of a Muslim can be shed (Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 83, No. 17).

On the contrary, there are ample evidence in the Qur’an that individuals should be able to accept or reject a particular faith on the basis of personal conviction, and that no amount of external pressure or compulsion should be permitted: “No compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error.”(2:256). “If it had been the Lord’s will, they would have believed – All who are on earth! Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!” (10:99)

It is pertinent to note that the Quran does not make any provision for the killing of apostates and that no earthly punishment is prescribed if a person reverts back to any other religion. Here is the verse from the Quran that proves it:

‘Surely those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, GOD will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path’. (ch: 4: Ver.137)

According to the Quran, if we believe in GOD we are guided. If we do not believe in GOD, GOD will deal with us in the Hereafter. In other words, the Quran does allow the freedom of belief and disbelief. At the same time, GOD will never forgive a person who persists in disbelief. The following verse further confirms this situation.

"O you who believe, if any of you reverts from his religion, then God will bring people whom He loves as they love Him, and humble themselves towards the believers, while being stern towards the disbelievers; and strive in the cause of God; and never worry about any blamer who might blame them. Such is God's grace that He bestows upon whomever He wills. God is bounteous, omniscient." (Ch 5: Ver.54)

[Skavau]

Because God commanded us to take the life of those turn apostates.

Which is why political Islam is indeed a scary thought.

It is not a big deal if someone leaves Islam for another relgion and such a person is not punished. But it's a big deal when someone who leaves Islam makes it public and invites others to leave Islam. This is considered treason in an Islamic state especially when muslims are under attack from everywhere. So if a muslim changes his faith and practices christianity and treats his new faith as a personal matter between himself and God, then nobody has the right to bother him, he will be protected by the Islamic state and his wealth and honour is protected just like other christians who live under the muslims' protection. However if he tries to convert other people, writes books against Islam, goes on TV shows to condemn Islam and dishearten muslims at the time of war and confusion, then he is prohibited by the state and is given a chance to repent for his actions.

So ultimately, an Islamic state encourage censorship of viewpoints against Islam.

On pain of death.

Probably right, each to their own

The irony of that when considering how some Muslims consider apostasy from Islam.

No, it it forces them to think twice about their actions just like the punishment for theft is there to make you think twice before you steal. You can become an apostate but that means that you'll be punished after having had a three discussion with scholars or that you have to leave the Islamic State. Those are your two choices. Do you think that the worst sin will be tolorated?

Yes. The laws on theft do make potential thieves think twice about stealing. Those who feel compelled not to steal due to present laws though would steal if they did not exist. They would still be thieves at heart.

The same is with apostates. You would only prevent some from asserting their apostasy and lead people to living lies.

We were discussing the punishment for apostasy under the Islamic State which is an integral part of Islam, and all you can come up with is this? All you brought on the table was "well according to my opinion it's not just,yada yada", while I'm backed by the Sunnah and Islamic scholarship.

You're apparently backed up with it being the case under Islamic Law. You are not backed up by any ethical standpoint.

If a manifesto of the UK Independence Party said that all immigrants ought to be deported, no-one would debate that such is the case. What people would debate is whether it is an ethically good standpoint.

By the by, public declaration of apostasy = treason. Treason is a capital offense in many countries. Let's not be hypocrites here.

Leaving a belief does not at all constitute treason.

Giving 2.5% of wealth to the poor, looking after orphans and elderly, establishing strong communities, promoting transparent and fair business, providing protection and justice....... These things would be going back to medieval ages?

No.

But killing those who apostate from Islam would.

You don't have to agree with apostasy laws but its already been explained that they are not 'murderous' and are there for many reasons. Your ignorance is what makes you hate.

All reasons that I have been given in the past by Muslims remain morally redundant.

What reasons do you offer?

[the sad clown]

After reading through the first 6+ pages of this thread, I have to say, I feel very happy to have not grown up in an Islamic state.

[AHMAD_73]

After reading through the first 6+ pages of this thread, I have to say, I feel very happy to have not grown up in an Islamic state.

If you did some effort to find the truth, and chose to be a Moslem that will be great, and you will be rewarded generously for that. all of your past sins will be forgiven and if you felt sorrow about it and repented, it will be changed to be good deeds by the favor of Allah.

To be born as a Moslem is a great favor from Allah too.

Edited by AHMAD_73, 24 December 2011 - 09:26 AM.

[chelsea89]

I've often wonderd what happens if someone turns away from Islam but then reverts. The onlything I've come about in the Quran on this ( and I'm not too well versed in the Quran yet) is saying that ifone is flippant ( turns away, reverts, turns away again, reverts again) thAt his destination is hellfire but what about the person who gets led astray by some Vhristian group as a teen and later on in college searches for truth and finds he's back at Islam and is truly repentive of having turned away?

[AHMAD_73]

I've often wonderd what happens if someone turns away from Islam but then reverts. The onlything I've come about in the Quran on this ( and I'm not too well versed in the Quran yet) is saying that ifone is flippant ( turns away, reverts, turns away again, reverts again) thAt his destination is hellfire but what about the person who gets led astray by some Vhristian group as a teen and later on in college searches for truth and finds he's back at Islam and is truly repentive of having turned away?

alsalamo alykom السلام عليكم , sister

the general concept in Islam is "the repentance door is fully open tell death (when the spirit reaches the throat)"

004.137  Y: "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way"

This verse have many explanations, the most near either the one who do this intentionally (playing a game with the god) or the hypocrites who do it all the time. this one will accustomed to that game and will be totally confused about the truth.

I believe If a sergeant in the army alarmed his unit about the enemies' attack, then after their readiness they discovered he was intentionally lied on them. how his unit will see him. What if he repeated this….....!!
While on the other hand if his collogue did the same because of delusion or the wind or any reasonable reason, no problem then,..……

Allah tells in the Quran:

005.039  Y: But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

019.060 Y: Except those who repent and believe, and work righteousness: for these will enter the Garden and will not be wronged in the least,- 
.

And there are many Hadeethes supported that:
" Allah will not account the Moslem for un-intentional mistakes, forgetting, and doing something under force"

"Allah will be happy with his servant repentance more than a man was surly die in the middle of a barn dessert while suddenly been saved"

"A man killed 99 persons and asked about repentance while the religious consulter told him, there is no repentance for your case, the man killed him. while he still need to repent, he asked a scholar who told him: who can hinder the god mercy to reach you...........Allah forgave him"

Yes, the door is fully open, but who told you, you have enough time to get into it. Death may attack the man at any moment.
Who will try to miss-use the god mercy, or to play the game with him, He will be the real looser.

Allah knows best

Edited by AHMAD_73, 24 December 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[Wesley]

Traditionalist Muslim scholars have long embraced classical positions on apostasy that consider the rejection of Islam as a capital crime, punishable by death. This position is taken from many reported Hadiths of the prophet. For instance, Bukhari reports a hadith stating that “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him”. (Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 84, No. 57). There are other hadiths that sanction the killing of apostates as one of three cases in which the blood of a Muslim can be shed (Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 83, No. 17).

On the contrary, there are ample evidence in the Qur’an that individuals should be able to accept or reject a particular faith on the basis of personal conviction, and that no amount of external pressure or compulsion should be permitted: “No compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error.”(2:256). “If it had been the Lord’s will, they would have believed – All who are on earth! Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!” (10:99)

It is pertinent to note that the Quran does not make any provision for the killing of apostates and that no earthly punishment is prescribed if a person reverts back to any other religion. Here is the verse from the Quran that proves it:

‘Surely those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, GOD will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path’. (ch: 4: Ver.137)

According to the Quran, if we believe in GOD we are guided. If we do not believe in GOD, GOD will deal with us in the Hereafter. In other words, the Quran does allow the freedom of belief and disbelief. At the same time, GOD will never forgive a person who persists in disbelief. The following verse further confirms this situation.

"O you who believe, if any of you reverts from his religion, then God will bring people whom He loves as they love Him, and humble themselves towards the believers, while being stern towards the disbelievers; and strive in the cause of God; and never worry about any blamer who might blame them. Such is God's grace that He bestows upon whomever He wills. God is bounteous, omniscient." (Ch 5: Ver.54)

Does the Hadith, in this case, contradict the Qur'an? Or adds something which was not in the Qur'an?

[the sad clown]

If you did some effort to find the truth, and chose to be a Moslem that will be great, and you will be rewarded generously for that. all of your past sins will be forgiven and if you felt sorrow about it and repented, it will be changed to be good deeds by the favor of Allah.

I am glad to see that your mystical insight into the inner workings of my mind is working well again. Obviously you know that I have not been sincere and and have not made an effort to find the truth even though I have said otherwise numerous times. Ahmad, I am curious, should I too now entertain doubts about your intelligence and honesty since you do not believe the way I do? We would surely never be able to trust one another again to even have a discussion. I will leave it up to you whether this is the result you wish for.

You do not know me. You do not know the effort I have put forward to know the truth.

[AHMAD_73]

I am glad to see that your mystical insight into the inner workings of my mind is working well again. Obviously you know that I have not been sincere and and have not made an effort to find the truth even though I have said otherwise numerous times. Ahmad, I am curious, should I too now entertain doubts about your intelligence and honesty since you do not believe the way I do? We would surely never be able to trust one another again to even have a discussion. I will leave it up to you whether this is the result you wish for.

You do not know me. You do not know the effort I have put forward to know the truth.

hay, take it easy, it was just a general repay, i may mis-used the words, but really i meant any body. i repeated it more than five times the 3/4 months i been here.

sorry if that hurted you.

[the sad clown]

hay, take it easy, it was just a general repay, i may mis-used the words, but really i meant any body. i repeated it more than five times the 3/4 months i been here.

sorry if that hurted you.

I know you have used it repeatedly. I have questioned you on it repeatedly as well. Repeating such an assumption does not make it better.

[AHMAD_73]

I know you have used it repeatedly. I have questioned you on it repeatedly as well. Repeating such an assumption does not make it better.

what do you mean by assumption?

i repeated it to every new Moslem, and it's not assumption but a good tidings and gift from Allah,

025.070 S: Except him who repents and believes and does a good deed; so these are they of whom Allah changes the evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah knows best

Edited by AHMAD_73, 25 December 2011 - 11:02 AM.

[the sad clown]

025.070 S: Except him who repents and believes and does a good deed; so these are they of whom Allah changes the evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

That verse isn't what I was talking about. It was your constant insinuations of insincerity that was bothering me. Do you have verses for accusing people of being insincere as well?

[Redeem]

After reading through the first 6+ pages of this thread, I have to say, I feel very happy to have not grown up in an Islamic state.

I truly hope, for your own eternal happiness, that you will change your mind about that someday.

Salam.

[the sad clown]

I truly hope, for your own eternal happiness, that you will change your mind about that someday.

I am sure my Christian friends and family have a similar hope for me as well. I think it would probably have to be God who changes my mind, however. I have expended a significant amount of time and effort trying to change my own mind. It didn't work.

On the other hand, if I had been born in an Islamic state and had the same problem that I currently have, I probably wouldn't be alive for you to wish me a change of mind.

[AHMAD_73]

On the other hand, if I had been born in an Islamic state and had the same problem that I currently have, I probably wouldn't be alive for you to wish me a change of mind.

non- of the 57 ruled Islamic states apply the sharea'a but Saudi Arabia and some districts in Nigeria. even for those who apply the sharea'a have different opinions about the apostate punishment.
It's odd and more than odd in the Islamic history tell this moment.

There are some figures in Egypt who tried to find the truth by them selves, DR. Mostafa Mahmoud spent decades of his life seeking it in Christianity, Atheism, Buddhism, comunism... but finally he came back a stronger Moslem. He had a very famous series about his journey called "science and belief ÇáÚáã æ ÇáÇíãÇä" and how he find that science just supports the right believes.

May Allah show .... show ....every truth seeker the right way.
Is that seems ok,