56 replies to this topic

[Orthodox]

In an atheistic world view we are forced to conclude with objectivity that a woman is nothing more than a natural by product of time + chance + matter just as a rat, cow or even a ####roach is nothing more than a natural by product of time + chance + matter.

So who is to say that she is any different from a rat or cow? Sure, from the human perspective she is, but maybe from the rat or cow’s perspective she is not. Who said that the human’s perspective is correct? This is “specieism” (similar to racism), which is to say that your species is better than others for no objective reason.

So who really has the ultimate say in that?

In Islam, God gave her a soul and sanctified her life and increased her in status over the animals and gave her the opportunity to go to heaven and be in a relationship with her Creator.

In conclusion, Islam uplifts the woman in status while atheism degrades her down to the status of a bunch of subatomic particles that will eventually turn into dust.

By Bassam Zawadi;
To Any Atheist Who Has the Nerve to Say that Islam Degrades Women

[zoro]

In an atheistic world view we are forced to conclude with objectivity that a woman is nothing more than a natural by product of time + chance + matter just as a rat, cow or even a ####roach is nothing more than a natural by product of time + chance + matter.

So who is to say that she is any different from a rat or cow? Sure, from the human perspective she is, but maybe from the rat or cow’s perspective she is not. Who said that the human’s perspective is correct? This is “specieism” (similar to racism), which is to say that your species is better than others for no objective reason.

So who really has the ultimate say in that?

In Islam, God gave her a soul and sanctified her life and increased her in status over the animals and gave her the opportunity to go to heaven and be in a relationship with her Creator.

In conclusion, Islam uplifts the woman in status while atheism degrades her down to the status of a bunch of subatomic particles that will eventually turn into dust.

By Bassam Zawadi;
To Any Atheist Who Has the Nerve to Say that Islam Degrades Women

What astounding silliness!

In case you didn't know it, Bassam, "man-eating tigers" (similar to cougars, grisly bears, and sharks) consider humans little "different from a rat or a cow" (although they probably wouldn't bother to eat a rat, since the effort doesn't have much caloric value). Of course it's "specieism", and similar to most species, most humans seek the survival of their genes. Thus, "who has the ultimate say" that humans should survive is (most of us) humans!! And also, it's we who "uplift" women -- although some pathetic men obviously don't.

[Orthodox]

What astounding silliness!

In case you didn't know it, Bassam, "man-eating tigers" (similar to cougars, grisly bears, and sharks) consider humans little "different from a rat or a cow" (although they probably wouldn't bother to eat a rat, since the effort doesn't have much caloric value). Of course it's "specieism", and similar to most species, most humans seek the survival of their genes. Thus, "who has the ultimate say" that humans should survive is (most of us) humans!! And also, it's we who "uplift" women -- although some pathetic men obviously don't.

I am not Bassam. What is your point?

And also, it's we who "uplift" women -- although some pathetic men obviously don't.

I think women have their own mind. May I ask, how do you guys uplift women? By dating one after another, giving them little roses... What an "uplift."

Edited by Orthodox, 17 November 2010 - 10:07 PM.

[zoro]

I think women have their own mind. May I ask, how do you guys uplift women? By dating one after another, giving them little roses... What an "uplift."

In case you didn't know it, your technique is called a "red herring".

[Orthodox]

In case you didn't know it, your technique is called a "red herring".

Stop showing off your communications skills. And make your bloody point.

[xocoti]

Stop showing off your communications skills. And make your bloody point.

His point is that you don't have one.( that is what a red herring is, a deflection away from a point by bringing up another point. It comes from the old wives tale that red herring could cover one's sent from dogs)

There is no such thing as an athiest view point, nor an athiest doctrine that assigns a value to women. It is merely a reactionary movement against theistic assertions.

Edited by xocoti, 30 November 2010 - 05:41 PM.

[RAHIMI]

It is rather ironic though, while these people from countries where atheism is prevalent, cries about women right and abuse of women in Islamic societies, the real world statistics shows that, when it comes to abusing and killing women, these countries feature prominently on top. In US for example, almost 2000 women lost their life every year, killed by their husband or boyfriend..

[xocoti]

Athiesm causes people to kill women. Gotcha.

BTW ipods are more prevelent in those countries as well. Did ipods cause people to kill women?

Edited by xocoti, 30 November 2010 - 06:21 PM.

[Skenderbeu]

Athiesm causes people to kill women. Gotcha.

BTW ipods are more prevelent in those countries as well. Did ipods cause people to kill women?

I agree with you on this part, since there are so many factors in a nation you cannot say it is just atheism that causes people to kill woman, it is a combination of many things.

But these things seem to be much less or even non prevalent in Muslim countries.

[RAHIMI]

Athiesm causes people to kill women. Gotcha.

BTW ipods are more prevelent in those countries as well. Did ipods cause people to kill women?

You have got nothing, I merely pointing out the Hypocrisy and double standard of these people..they killed their own by the thousands and yet, once in the blue moon this happened among Muslims, they would jump up and down yelling..

[RAHIMI]

I agree with you on this part, since there are so many factors in a nation you cannot say it is just atheism that causes people to kill woman, it is a combination of many things.

But these things seem to be much less or even non prevalent in Muslim countries.

ohh and to top it off, when this happened among Muslims, Islam is to be blamed and when the very same thing happened among them, it is a combination of many things..hence the hypocrisy and double standard..

[Tim the plumber]

When a woman dies in a western country there is a fuss about it, investigations, trial, jail etc. If it happens in Somalia nothing is recored. If it happens in Pakistan it probably goes unrecorded. India is bad as well.

Why do you treat the value of women as different o the value of men?

[RAHIMI]

When a woman dies in a western country there is a fuss about it, investigations, trial, jail etc. If it happens in Somalia nothing is recored. If it happens in Pakistan it probably goes unrecorded. India is bad as well

Why do you treat the value of women as different o the value of men?

First off, what's that got to do with Islam? Manners with regard to the dead is clearly defined by Islam, regardless of gender..
Secondly, can you show us evidence of what you are claiming, that differnt values were applied for women in some of those places that you mentioned?
Thirdly, can you go to nationmaster website and check out the statistics for murders & homicides, rapes, burglary....& give us your thoughts on why western countries again predominantly featured on top of just about every list?

[xocoti]

ohh and to top it off, when this happened among Muslims, Islam is to be blamed and when the very same thing happened among them, it is a combination of many things..hence the hypocrisy and double standard..

No, you claimed Athiesm was to blame for people killing women and I explained to you that athiesm can't cause anything since it doesn't have a belief system or make any claims about women for good or bad. If you want to claim consumerism, lack of education of gender equality, or any number of things cause problems go ahead, but please stop with the persecution complex. Yes there are problems with various world views and outlooks and yes Islam is one of those things, you can feel free to include any other world views you feel like and I would be happy and delighted to discuss problems with them.

[therealjag]

I think scientifically the original poster is right in that athiests treat women as atoms fused together to form a living organism but i think the issue here is degradation of women. Men are given a soul and sactioned life too but for some reason there does seem to be an issue where Islamic women are seen as 2nd class citizens...I actually think women in the "Western World" are given too many rights, one of the many reasons why things are so messed up but hey ho thats the way things are I guess!

[RAHIMI]

No, you claimed Athiesm was to blame for people killing women and I explained to you that athiesm can't cause anything since it doesn't have a belief system or make any claims about women for good or bad. If you want to claim consumerism, lack of education of gender equality, or any number of things cause problems go ahead, but please stop with the persecution complex. Yes there are problems with various world views and outlooks and yes Islam is one of those things, you can feel free to include any other world views you feel like and I would be happy and delighted to discuss problems with them.

This once again demonstrate your tendency to make conclusion based on assumption.
Here are the facts that I mentioned:
1) Atheism is prevalent in western countries, America, Europe etc. Some claimed to be Christians but abandon most of its teaching.
2) Real world statistics shows that these so called western countries feature predominantly on top when it comes to domestic violence and killing women.
3) People from these countries sometimes accuse Muslims of committing violence against women and degrading them whereas they are the main perpetrators.

Show me how you arrived to that conclusion of yours again based on the facts above..

Edited by RAHIMI, 01 December 2010 - 03:28 PM.

[xocoti]

I think scientifically the original poster is right in that athiests treat women as atoms fused together to form a living organism but i think the issue here is degradation of women. Men are given a soul and sactioned life too but for some reason there does seem to be an issue where Islamic women are seen as 2nd class citizens...I actually think women in the "Western World" are given too many rights, one of the many reasons why things are so messed up but hey ho thats the way things are I guess!

No. Again athiesm is simply the idea that thiestic claims have yet to be proven, it doesn't say anything about a woman's worth for good or bad. Secondly which rights do you think women should be deprived of, so that we may deprive you of them. Lead by example as the saying goes.

[therealjag]

Secondly which rights do you think women should be deprived of, so that we may deprive you of them. Lead by example as the saying goes.

Sorry I cant really say, I think I'd probably get into trouble as I have some fairly right wing views on a womans and mans place in the world. All I'm going to say is that men have their place, and women have their place and its been like that for thousands of years during all of civilisation. Only now is there an emergance of male and female equality within everything in life and its no coincedence that the world is in a poor state right now. Though even saying that things still arent equal, they are only equal when it suites women. For example, Women wish to be seen as self-dependant, girl power etc etc but when it comes to buying dinner, the man still has to be chivalrous and pay...i know its just one example but its carrying the theme i'm talking about.

[xocoti]

This once again demonstrate your tendency to make conclusion based on assumption.
Here are the facts that I mentioned:
1) Atheism is prevalent in western countries, America, Europe etc. Some claimed to be Christians but abandon most of its teaching.
2) Real world statistics shows that these so called western countries feature predominantly on top when it comes to domestic violence and killing women.
3) People from these countries sometimes accuse Muslims of committing violence against women and degrading them.

Show me how you arrived to that conclusion of yours again based on the facts above..

1) it is also far more prevalent in Islamic countries than you would think, but the pure and guiltless Islamic tradition mandates death to them if the speak out. They also face immense social stigma unknown in the hypocritical and two faced western countries where there far less social sigma attached to ones belief.

2) western countries have far better reporting methods for crime, sexual harassment, and rape. You do know how rape charges are handled in Saudi Arabia right? if the girl comes from a good family the accused is executed and if the girl is from a bad family she has to prove it was rape and not consensual sex. In either case it is not reported officially for fear of shaming those involved. This isn't how things should be handled Islamically and I do not say that Islam is responsible for this, but that is a reason why rape is reported far less in some countries than others.

3) you are using a method of bad reasoning called " correlation equals causation" ( Google it if you need to). Athiesm in no way supports or condemns the rape or sexual harassment of women. It simply doesn't say anything about it.

Edited by xocoti, 01 December 2010 - 03:38 PM.

[therealjag]

I still dont see how the original poster has proved that Islam doesnt degrade women, or that Atheists have accused Islam of degrading women. I've heard that Islam does but I dont have evidence of it so I cant stand by that decision...would be good if the original poster or someone else could clear this one up for us...the thread seems to be going off into a tangent...