218 replies to this topic

[Orthodox]

"And, more importantly, how can something be "truly God" and "truly man," when "truly God" trumps "truly man" and what does that mean in terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one's own self, even if that self is just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here? Because I require a sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that sacrifice has to be "pure" in order for it to work in my mind, I therefore cut off my own arm (a "pure" arm) in order to satisfy my own requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?"

[Mrs. J]

Hi Orthodox.

You clearly do not know much about Christianity if you are able to simplify it like this.

This is my personal view:

It does not make sense to me for God to demand a ransom which He Himself would pay, nor to require atonement sacrifice which He would offer. Many Christians take the atonement thing literally when I see it as figurative. Atonement and sacrifice was common in the Jewish tradition in those days.
The death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross is what it would take to get people to listen to Jesus.

I’ll explain tomorrow with scriptural references, it’s late.

[Jesse]

This was one of the many reasons I couldn't accept the legitimacy of Christianity. The infinite, perfect creator would hardly need to jump through hoops to redeem humanity.

[Orthodox]

Hi Orthodox.

You clearly do not know much about Christianity if you are able to simplify it like this.

This is my personal view:

It does not make sense to me for God to demand a ransom which He Himself would pay, nor to require atonement sacrifice which He would offer. Many Christians take the atonement thing literally when I see it as figurative. Atonement and sacrifice was common in the Jewish tradition in those days.
The death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross is what it would take to get people to listen to Jesus.

I’ll explain tomorrow with scriptural references, it’s late.

Hello [smile], this wasn't written by me just so you know. I find personal views worthless because they are not used as teachings from the religion is question.

Edited by Orthodox, 30 December 2010 - 12:44 AM.

[Mrs. J]

Hello [smile], this wasn't written by me just so you know. I find personal views worthless because they are not used as teachings from the religion is question.

They are useful because the Bible is full of prophesies that use metaphors. It is through the interpretation that 'doctrine comes about'.

Why do you care anyway?

[Orthodox]

Why do you care anyway?

I though Christians had an answer. They probably do. Smile.

[researchgirl]

"And, more importantly, how can something be "truly God" and "truly man," when "truly God" trumps "truly man" and what does that mean in terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one's own self, even if that self is just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here? Because I require a sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that sacrifice has to be "pure" in order for it to work in my mind, I therefore cut off my own arm (a "pure" arm) in order to satisfy my own requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?"

What's the point in posting this? Who is saying this anyway? I'm sure Christians have their reasons why they believe what they do.

[Orthodox]

Do you see my questionmark anywhere above? Maybe this answers why I am posting it. Muslims are allowed to challenge Christians. Christians are allowed to challenge non-Muslims. Is there a problem?

Your posts tend to be informal. Approach asking with humility and not an argumentative, insulting tone, if you are seeking answers from anyone. I dislike investing time in waste of time arguments.

Edited by Orthodox, 31 December 2010 - 01:59 AM.

[researchgirl]

Muslims are allowed to challenge Christians.

Really? Is that one of the reasons why this forum is set up? To challenge people of other faiths and beliefs, mock at them, laugh at them, make fun of them? I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like humility to me.

[Orthodox]

Really? Is that one of the reasons why this forum is set up? To challenge people of other faiths and beliefs, mock at them, laugh at them, make fun of them? I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like humility to me.

What have those who made this forum have to do with a poster who made a topic? Are you blaming them for what one poster has done? Or are you trying to make me feel compelled to reply, making me feel blameful?

What has this topic have to do with making fun, mocking, and laughing? Everyone was serious.

And what has a challenge to do with mocking, making fun, ridiculing, etc???

Forgive me if I sound harsh. I do not take my words lightly even though sometimes I do. Maybe silence would be better when we aren't achieving much, no?

Edited by Orthodox, 31 December 2010 - 05:24 AM.

[researchgirl]

I forgive you, miss orthodox. I hope you will forgive me too.

[Mrs. J]

Salvation

Some Christians think salvation is believing that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Saviour, but true salvation from sin come to one who applies Jesus’ teachings and follows his example. He teaches us a new life and knowledge that when applied frees a person from sin. Now we’re all human, everyone makes mistakes, so I do not claim that all Christians are free from sin, but those who have applied Jesus teachings may sin very rarely.

Atonement and offering

In the Bible we learn that atonement and offering was the way God and his people would relate to each other. But we also learn that God wanted much more:

“I desire mercy not sacrifice, and acknowledgement of God rather than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and as much as in obeying the voice of the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

They were substituting sacrifice for devotion and spirituality, substituting doing good with being good. I believe God wants us to be good people and not just do good deeds. A person can do good deeds and still be ugly on the inside.

This is also why Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to “Love your God, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your understanding, and with all your strength” and in a wise response a Jewish teacher of the law said to him, “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love with all heart, with all your understanding, and with all your strength and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” Jesus responded and said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” Matthew 12:28-34
So Jesus brought an end to the old Jewish covenant and brought in a new one, a new way of relating to God which goes beyond temples and sacrifices, and is about being rather than doing.

Why the crucifixion?

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is incredible. This epitomises his teachings of ‘eternal life’. The crucifixion and resurrection is also what it would take for people to listen. The passage in Exodus 4:1 – 8 is an example when God told Moses to throw his staff on the ground and watched it turn into a snake and also watched his hand turn white as if it were leprous. God said to Moses:

“If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second.” Exodus 4:8

As we also know from Exodus, God has used shock tactics as the Egyptians experienced. So Jesus’ death and resurrected was indeed a way of getting our attention. Once we pay attention, we listen to the teaching, and then apply it, and attain salvation. This is what it means that he died for the sins of the world, that he bore our infirmities. The atonement and sacrificial aspect is metaphorical because why would God demand a ransom he would pay, or a sacrifice he would offer? It doesn't make sense. It's very dramatic like a epic myth (no offense). God always speaks to people in a way in which they will understand, and the Jews understood sacrifice.

Make some sense now?

By the way, I am not alone in this perspective, there are others it’s just that we’re not the majority.

Also, this does not simply Christianity. It's as if I said the Shahada is the beginning and end of Islam.


To Orthodox, and everyone else reading this:
May God bless you abundantly in the next year and fill your life with love and happiness and fulfilment. Amen!

[AsadullahHamza]

No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.


aakwrAllahwbHu

Sister samantha-g says:

To Orthodox, and everyone else reading this:
May God bless you abundantly in the next year and fill your life with love and happiness and fulfilment. Amen!

JazakAllah, my respected sister. Similar wishes for the year and beyond go from me to to you and others. Alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.



la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi
there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;
there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

[John Paul]

"And, more importantly, how can something be "truly God" and "truly man," when "truly God" trumps "truly man" and what does that mean in terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one's own self, even if that self is just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here? Because I require a sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that sacrifice has to be "pure" in order for it to work in my mind, I therefore cut off my own arm (a "pure" arm) in order to satisfy my own requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?"

Hi Orthodox,

God could have redeemed us in an infinite number of ways. He chose to assume a human nature and offer through the flesh a pure sacrifice.

Why?

Since sin entered the world through a man (i.e. Adam) it is fitting that we should be redeemed through another man (i.e. Jesus). But not just any man…

Why?

No one is capable of paying back the debt owed to God for our sins. God the infinite has been offended by our sins; therefore only an infinite sacrifice could pay back an infinite offense.

God bless,

[RAHIMI]

Hi Orthodox,
God could have redeemed us in an infinite number of ways. He chose to assume a human nature and offer through the flesh a pure sacrifice.
Why?
Since sin entered the world through a man (i.e. Adam) it is fitting that we should be redeemed through another man (i.e. Jesus). But not just any man…
Why?
No one is capable of paying back the debt owed to God for our sins. God the infinite has been offended by our sins; therefore only an infinite sacrifice could pay back an infinite offense.
God bless,

Augustine, I must say I can't quite follow what you are trying to say nor any of the above make any sense to me..
Anyway, do you know what's an oxgoad is? Here is a couple of clips of Sh.Ahmad Deedat, exctract from his debate with a Palestinian Christian "Quran & Bible: which is God's word" or something like that..enjoy..

Part 1:

Part2:

[John Paul]

I respect Ahmed Deedat, he knows how to quote from the Bible but he lacks the understanding of how to interpret what he quotes…

What part of my post did you fail to understand?

God bless,

[Orthodox]

Hi Agustine [Interesting name or username].

No one is capable of paying back the debt owed to God for our sins. God the infinite has been offended by our sins; therefore only an infinite sacrifice could pay back an infinite offense.

O, an infinite offense. However, nothing was payed back because no one chose to pay back anything if the sacrifice is God.

Edited by Orthodox, 08 January 2011 - 02:51 AM.

[RAHIMI]

I respect Ahmed Deedat, he knows how to quote from the Bible but he lacks the understanding of how to interpret what he quotes…
What part of my post did you fail to understand?
God bless,

Why don't we start with some basic stuff mentioned by Sh.Deedat in the clips above?
How about offering your interpretations of a jewish lad killing 600 Palestinians with an ox-goad, killing a thousand with 'fresh jawbone of a donkey? Is there a historical account of 'Palestinians foreskin' being used as currency? and what about killing thousands of men, women and children except virgin girls that they saved for themselves and their lord? Prophet did this under instruction from god? Please explain these and explain in what way sh.deedat is lacking in his interpretations..
We'll get to your earlier point later IA..

Edited by RAHIMI, 08 January 2011 - 04:59 AM.

[John Paul]

God the Son free willingly bore the sacrifice Himself and offered it to the Father.

God bless,

[John Paul]

Why don't we start with some basic stuff mentioned by Sh.Deedat in the clips above?
How about offering your interpretations of a jewish lad killing 600 Palestinians with an ox-goad, killing a thousand with 'fresh jawbone of a donkey? Is there a historical account of 'Palestinians foreskin' being used as currency? and what about killing thousands of men, women and children except virgin girls that they saved for themselves and their lord? Prophet did this under instruction from god? Please explain these and explain in what way sh.deedat is lacking in his interpretations..
We'll get to your earlier point later IA..

It will take some time to answer your questions. Here is a brief answer.

The purpose of recording these events was to demonstrate that is was not the israelites by their own military might that enabled them to defeat their enemies, but by the hand of God. God can very easily take a “no-body” using an ox goad and use him for His purpose. That’s why it was essential for the israelites to remain faithful to God on their part.

Your other questions will take longer to answer and are straying away from the topic of this thread…

God bless,