218 replies to this topic

[RAHIMI]

It will take some time to answer your questions. Here is a brief answer.

Sure, while you are at it, please explain this as well:
1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep,camel and ###### ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
I'm sure you'll come up with out of this explanations and justifications for killing civilians, small babies and their animals..that would make sense (at least to you).. look forward to it..

[Benedict]

Sure, while you are at it, please explain this as well:
1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep,camel and ###### ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
I'm sure you'll come up with out of this explanations and justifications for killing civilians, small babies and their animals..that would make sense (at least to you).. look forward to it..

Rahimi, I know this was directed at Augustine but what exactly are you quoting here and looking for a explanation for?

[RAHIMI]

Rahimi, I know this was directed at Augustine but what exactly are you quoting here and looking for a explanation for?

Salam, I think Augustine was trying to explain trinity to me by quoting verses from the Bible which did not make sense to me. My reply to him was somewhere along the line that there are other parts of the Bible that do not make sense to me as well, the above is an example. How could a scripture that is supposed to be from God or God inspired talking about God/Prophet of God commanding people to kill men, women, babies and even animals for no reason other that rage? If you have the time, watch the clips from Sh. Deedat as well..

[Benedict]

Salam, I think Augustine was trying to explain trinity to me by quoting verses from the Bible which did not make sense to me. My reply to him was somewhere along the line that there are other parts of the Bible that do not make sense to me as well, the above is an example. How could a scripture that is supposed to be from God or God inspired talking about God/Prophet of God commanding people to kill men, women, babies and even animals for no reason other that rage? If you have the time, watch the clips from Sh. Deedat as well..

What book and verse do you have quoted? I thought it might be Isaias 15 but it did not match.

[RAHIMI]

What book and verse do you have quoted? I thought it might be Isaias 15 but it did not match.

Sorry, here's a full NIV quote:
1 Samuel 15 (New International Version, ©2010)

1 Samuel 15

The LORD Rejects Saul as King

1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves[b] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
Source:you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?search=1%20Samuel+15&version=NIV

god with regrets? hmmm....So is this from god, god inspired, or unknown men writing to demonise other group of people?

[Mrs. J]

Hello everyone,

Allow me to expand on my previous comment.

The death of Jesus on the cross is truly significant to all Christians. It brings to fulfilment the idea of Eternal Life which Jesus taught, and fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies, and it is through his death and resurrection that the world would come to know and accept the message of Jesus and attain salvation; itt is a sign, just as Passover was a sign as well as the parting of the water, and manna and quail were all signs.

I, and others like myself, reject the widely-held view among most Christians that God sacrificed his 'only begotten son' or Himself on the cross as an act of atonement or ransom to Satan. The idea that Jesus bore the sins of humanity and was punished in substitution of mankind is also rejected. The doctrine of atonement is multifaceted and has been debated and developed over the centuries – long after Jesus and his disciples were here on earth. It was a concept which was formulated partly to explain why Jesus died or why God did not deliver him from the clutches of his persecutors if he was indeed the ‘only begotten son’, especially since the idea of Jesus being God in a trinity was growing (it was not around in the earliest years of Christianity).

When we read the Gospels, it is clear that there are several things which lead to salvation and eternal life, so it would therefore be scripturally incorrect to claim that salvation comes only from the death of Jesus on the cross and from only believing that he died and was resurrected. Jesus said before he was crucified in prayer that we were already loved by God not that we would need atonement to be reconciled with God. Jesus came to show us the way.

Jesus did indeed repeatedly foretell his death on the cross and his resurrection, and he was clearly aware that his death had a purpose. His death was an act of unselfishness because he let go of worldly attachment and self-preservation in order for us to attain Eternal Life – he knew that this sign was necessary. So, he sacrificed himself in that way, but he was NOT a sacrifice for atonement purposes nor is he a ransom to Satan. Why would YAHWEH come down to earth and sacrifice Himself to Himself or ransom Himself/His son to Satan? Why would he sacrifice His ‘only begotten Son’ when He prevented Abraham from sacrificing his own child? Some say it is out of love for us – but again, where is the logic in sacrificing one’s self (or one’s one child) to one’s self or to Satan? Does God need to appease Satan?

In the Bible, we learn that God’s people were sacrificing their children, and this is what he said about it:

“They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire –something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.” Jeremiah 7:31

God never even thought of child sacrifice nor did He command it, so WHY would He sacrifice His ‘only begotten son’? Logic? ? ? ?

This is a flawed doctrine, which is why it can be pulled apart by scripture and history proves that this theory was not around in the earliest days of Christendom.


If Jesus was indeed final atonement as is claimed, why then was he not offered as a holy sacrifice at the Temple, which still stood erect when he was alive on earth - rather than hanging on a cross like a common criminal? Would God not have made special provisions for the final atonement, especially if He Himself or His ‘only begotten son’ were to be sacrificed?

The world is saved from Jesus’ death on the cross because it is through his death and the resurrection that we would come to know Jesus and his message and attain salvation. Humanity wanted signs to believe, which is why we have been shown miracles and have had facts beyond human knowledge revealed to us as signs [just as the Quran states that some of the things stated therein were unknown, and there are also references to signs].

Only those who follow Jesus’ teachings and emulate his perfect example are saved from the slavery of sin, as many Christians believe in his death and resurrection and call him their Lord and Saviour, yet they do not apply his teachings. It is as Jesus himself prophesied,

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of God in heaven will enter.” Matthew 7:21

God’s peace to all of you.

Edited by samantha-g, 31 January 2011 - 06:35 AM.

[Benedict]

Sorry, here's a full NIV quote:
1 Samuel 15 (New International Version, ©2010)

1 Samuel 15

The LORD Rejects Saul as King

1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves[b] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
Source:you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?search=1%20Samuel+15&version=NIV

god with regrets? hmmm....So is this from god, god inspired, or unknown men writing to demonise other group of people?

Rahimi, This is the same verse from from the Douay-Rheims


Saul is sent to destroy Amalec: he spareth their king and the best of their cattle: for which disobedience he is cast off by the Lord.

[1] And Samuel said to Saul: The Lord sent me to anoint thee king over his People israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the Lord: [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts: I have reckoned up all that Amalec hath done to israel: I how he opposed them in the way when they came up out of Egypt. [3] Now therefore go, and smite Amalec, and utterly destroy all that he hath: spare him not, nor covet any thing that is his: but slay both man and woman, child and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ######. [4] So Saul commanded the people, and numbered them as lambs: two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand of the men of Juda. [5] And when Saul was come to the city of Amalec, he laid ambushes in the torrent.

[3] "Child"... The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.

[6] And Saul said to the Cinite: Go, depart and get ye down from Amalec: lest I destroy thee with him. For thou hast shewn kindness to all the children of israel, when they came up out of Egypt. And the Cinite departed from the midst of Amalec. [7] And Saul smote Amalec from Hevila, until thou comest to Sur, which is over against Egypt. [8] And he took Agag the king of Amalec alive: but all the common people he slew with the edge of the sword. [9] And Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the flocks of sheep and of the herds, and the garments and the rams, and all that was beautiful, and would not destroy them: but every thing that was vile and good for nothing, that they destroyed. [10] And the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying:

[11] It repenteth me that I have made Saul king: for he hath forsaken me, and hath not executed my commandments. And Samuel was grieved, and he cried unto the Lord all night. [12] And when Samuel rose early, to go to Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, that Saul was come to Carmel, and had erected for himself a triumphant arch, and returning had passed on, and gone down to Galgal. And Samuel came to Saul, and Saul was offering a holocaust to the Lord out of the choicest of the spoils which he had brought from Amalec. [13] And when Samuel was come to Saul, Saul said to him: Blessed be thou of the Lord, I have fulfilled the word of the Lord. [14] And Samuel said: What meaneth then this bleating of the flocks, which soundeth in my ears, and the lowing of the herds, which I hear? [15] And Saul said: They have brought them from Amalec: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the herds that they might be sacrificed to the Lord thy God, but the rest we have slain.

[16] And Samuel said to Saul: Suffer me, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night. And he said to him: Speak. [17] And Samuel said: When thou wast a little one in thy own eyes, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of israel? And the Lord anointed thee to be king over israel. [18] And the Lord sent thee on the way, and said: Go, and kill the sinners of Amalec, and thou shalt fight against them until thou hast utterly destroyed them. [19] Why then didst thou not hearken to the voice of the Lord: but hast turned to the prey, and hast done evil in the eyes of the Lord. [20] And Saul said to Samuel: Yea I have hearkened to the voice of the Lord, and have walked in the way by which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalec, and Amalec I have slain.

[21] But the people took of the spoils sheep and oxen, as the firstfruits of those things that were slain, to offer sacrifice to the Lord their God in Galgal. [22] And Samuel said: Doth the Lord desire holocausts and victims, and not rather that the voice of the Lord should be obeyed? For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat of rams. [23] Because it is like the sin of witchcraft, to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey. Forasmuch therefore as thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, the Lord hath also rejected thee from being king. [24] And Saul said to Samuel: I have sinned because I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words, fearing the people, and obeying their voice. [25] But now bear, I beseech thee, my sin, and return with me, that I may adore the Lord.

[26] And Samuel said to Saul: I will not return with thee, because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over israel. [27] And Samuel turned about to go away: but he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. [28] And Samuel said to him: The Lord hath rent the kingdom of israel from thee this day, and hath given it to thy neighbour who is better than thee. [29] But the triumpher in israel will riot spare, and will not be moved to repentance: for he is not a mail that he should repent. [30] Then he said: I have sinned: yet honour me now before the ancients of my people, and before israel, and return with me, that I may adore the Lord thy God.

[31] So Samuel turned again after Saul: and Saul adored the Lord. [32] And Samuel said: Bring hitherto me Agag the king of Amalec. And Agag was presented to him very fat, and trembling. And Agag said: Doth bitter death separate in this manner? [33] And Samuel said: As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed him in pieces before the Lord in Galgal. [34] And Samuel departed to Ramatha: but Saul went up to his house in Gabaa. [35] And Samuel saw Saul no more till the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, because the Lord repented that he had made him king over israel.

[35] "Saw Saul no more till the day of his death"... That is, he went no more to see him: he visited him no more.

What you put out seemed a little incomplete. To adress your question though. I would say it was due to human will not conforming to God's will. Saul did not do as he was instructed by God.

[RAHIMI]

What you put out seemed a little incomplete. To adress your question though. I would say it was due to human will not conforming to God's will. Saul did not do as he was instructed by God.

Workingman, you are missing the point of my post..
Have you ever wonder why some Christians are hardcore Zionists supporters? Why these people tolerated butchering and killing of men, women, children, animals and even trees in Palestine? Why, because its says so in the Bible that't why..How about the verses about raping and killing women and keeping the virgins for themselves and their god? And how about the part when god is having second thoughts or regrets about Saul? If you keep insisting that all these are indeed from god, then all your statements in the other thread about who God is and what His attributes are, would be in complete contradiction and would not make any sense. Surely you can see this?
p.s Yes I did not quote the entire chapter from NIV..only verse 1-10..

[Benedict]

Workingman, you are missing the point of my post..
Have you ever wonder why some Christians are hardcore Zionists supporters? Why these people tolerated butchering and killing of men, women, children, animals and even trees in Palestine? Why, because its says so in the Bible that't why..How about the verses about raping and killing women and keeping the virgins for themselves and their god? And how about the part when god is having second thoughts or regrets about Saul? If you keep insisting that all these are indeed from god, then all your statements in the other thread about who God is and what His attributes are, would be in complete contradiction and would not make any sense. Surely you can see this?
p.s Yes I did not quote the entire chapter from NIV..only verse 1-10..

Ok I see what you are getting at but do I need to go and cherry pick verses from the Quran that support violence or war. I could but I don't see the point. They were fighting in the chapter you sighted at the command of God. Now bolth Christianity and Islam have there radicals. Bolth sides can find support from their Holy Book. You know that and I know that. Do we realy want to go there? I don't think that is really needed. No God does contain those atributes as I stated. God is also to be feared. If one does not fear God one is a fool. We might not understand God's reason with our limited human mind but in the end it leads to God's just ends.

[RAHIMI]

Ok I see what you are getting at but do I need to go and cherry pick verses from the Quran that support violence or war. I could but I don't see the point. They were fighting in the chapter you sighted at the command of God. Now bolth Christianity and Islam have there radicals. Bolth sides can find support from their Holy Book. You know that and I know that. Do we realy want to go there? I don't think that is really needed. No God does contain those atributes as I stated. God is also to be feared. If one does not fear God one is a fool.

Working, there is no confusion about the chapters that I and you quoted, according to the Bible Saul was commanded to butcher men,women,children, and even animals, Saul disobeyed and god regretted his own earlier decision.and how about the verses further up the thread about a couple of jewish lads killing thousands of Palestenians with an oxgoad and fresh jaw bone of a donkey? Is any of these worthy to be coming from god?

We might not understand God's reason with our limited human mind but in the end it leads to God's just ends.

We can understand when the Bible itself declares that god is not the author of confusion and that the false hands of the scribes had turned the truth into falsehood. It is obvious that the notions of the chapter is against other parts of the Bible, if god is all knowing then he simply would not have contradictions in his scripture, let alone having regrets..

Bolth sides can find support from their Holy Book. You know that and I know that. Do we realy want to go there? I don't think that is really needed.

If you consider that it is important that we should seek out the truth no matter what, then you should take the position of evaluating all evidence available. Which scripture is worthy to be uncorrupted words of God? We can't have both since the Quran itself declares that the Bible was falsified by men. Why don't you go ahead and quoted the verses from the Quran that you have issues with? IA you will get explanations and clarifications that would make sense..

[Benedict]

Rahimi, Before I post the verses that I have a issue with from the Quran, I want to give you this to think about on the repent part of the scripture posted above.

Repenteth. God cannot change: but he often acts exteriorly as one who repents. He alters his conduct when men prove rebellious. (St. Justin Martyr, p. 22.) --- Grieved. Hebrew, "indignant." (Calmet) --- He was sorry to think that Saul would now lose his temporal, and perhaps his eternal crown. (Salien) --- "The choice of Judas and of Saul, do not prove that God is ignorant of future events, but rather that he is a Judge of the present." (St. Jerome in Ezechiel ii.)
(This is from the Haydock commentary).

[Benedict]

Ok now for verses from the Quran that I hold issue with.

2:191-193 Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out because persecution and injustice are worse than killing. but do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they fight you there; But if they fight you kill them. Such is the reward of those who block faith. But if they cease, then Allah is often forgiving, most merciful. And keep fighting them until there is no more persecution and injustice. And justice and faith in Allah continues; But if they cease, let there be no hostile acts except against those who practice injustice.

4:74 Solet those who preferthe next life over the present life, battle on in the cause of Allah. To him who fights in Allah's cause whether he is killed or victorious, soon We shall give him a great reward.

4:95 Believerswho sit at home, except teh disabled; and recieve no hurt of fight, are not qual to thosewho struggle and fight in the cause of Allahwith their goods and their person. Allah has granted a position higher to those who struggle and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. To each Allah has promised good reward: But Allah has given a special position to those who struggle and fight above those who sit at home with a great reward

8:12 Remember when your Lord revealedthe Messageto the angels; Verily, I am with you; Give strength to the believers; I will bring about terror intothe hearts of the disbelievers;So you strike above their necks and hit hard over all of their finger-tips and toes.

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the last day; do not consider what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden as forbidden; and do not accept the way of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay jizya by hand in a humble expression.

18:65-81 This I won't post due to length but it seems to speak of maybe honor killings. This sticks out to me because I have not read this in any Jewish or Christian encounter of Musa. Nore have I ever heard of the man Khidr.

48:17 No blame or sin is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill if he does not join the war: And he who obeys Allah and His Messanger-Allah will admit him to gardens beneath which rivers flow; And he who turns back, Allah will punish him wiht a painful penalty.

Then there are some from the Hadith


Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."


Rahimi, I am sorry for such length. These passages cause me consern. I look forward to hearing your explanation.

God's blessings and peace to you

[RAHIMI]

Salam, workingman:
First let me address this:

[11] It repenteth me that I have made Saul king: for he hath forsaken me, and hath not executed my commandments. And Samuel was grieved, and he cried unto the Lord all night.
11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

From both quote, we found the Bible clearly and explicit states that god 'regretted' his decision. Now the obvious question is, can God regret? the obvious answer is no, because this would go against His nature (as stated in other parts of the Bible).

I'm sure others would offer clarifications for verses that you had listed, here a short snippets:
Part 1

Part2:

I will address the hadith later IA..

[Benedict]

Rahimi,

Ok, I got to watch the links finally. Now I respect Islams message of peace but the loud vocal minority says otherwise. These same verese I have used in a violent context. This is not I think a majority opinion and usage though.

As for the second video clip there was no mention of the hiding of the military targets in civilian zones and other non combatant type zones. Also no mention of the human shields that were used by there govt's. putting their civilians in harms way. War is not nice, pritty, or humain on any level. I have seen it first hand and it is ugly.

Is the US goverment perfect? No. Are errors made? Yes. I'm not going to bother with Isral that is a who problem in and of it self.

So what about those Muslims who use these verses though to ok there violence?

As a counter what about the Christians being persecuted and arrested in Dearborn MI? This group did not do anything illeagal.

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or

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Now keep in mind the US is not under Sharia law.

[RAHIMI]

Rahimi,
Ok, I got to watch the links finally. Now I respect Islams message of peace but the loud vocal minority says otherwise. These same verese I have used in a violent context. This is not I think a majority opinion and usage though.

Wman, I thought we have passed the part about weird Muslims/weird Christians, no? Islam is obviously not about some Muslims or some vocal loud minority of Muslims. The truth is about, which is the actual uncorrupted words of God and which one is the religion that God wants us to live our lives.
You have issues with certain verses of the Quran, as we have seen in the clips above how those verses can be taken out of context and twisted around..Hence the need for anyone who is seeking the truth to get legitimate references and have certain level of intellectual honesty. By this I mean, how could a Christian is not having problem when the Bible clearly and explicitly talks about a god chosen King killing not just men and women but also killing children and animals but having problem with the same in other scriptures (albeit trough vague/out of context interpretations)?

I watched first few seconds of the clips, these two guys are just troublemakers with no brain..I'm surprise that the brothers there showed so much restraint..Anyway, I could touch on the hadith about the war with the Jews if you want to go there, do you?

[Benedict]

Wman, I thought we have passed the part about weird Muslims/weird Christians, no? Islam is obviously not about some Muslims or some vocal loud minority of Muslims. The truth is about, which is the actual uncorrupted words of God and which one is the religion that God wants us to live our lives.
You have issues with certain verses of the Quran, as we have seen in the clips above how those verses can be taken out of context and twisted around..Hence the need for anyone who is seeking the truth to get legitimate references and have certain level of intellectual honesty. By this I mean, how could a Christian is not having problem when the Bible clearly and explicitly talks about a god chosen King killing not just men and women but also killing children and animals but having problem with the same in other scriptures (albeit trough vague/out of context interpretations)?

I watched first few seconds of the clips, these two guys are just troublemakers with no brain..I'm surprise that the brothers there showed so much restraint..Anyway, I could touch on the hadith about the war with the Jews if you want to go there, do you?

Rahimi, Ya I think we have passed it. I did not imply it was just stating what I have read and heard. Yes I said how I can see that they can be out of context. The same has to be done with the Scriptures. Some times it takes more than one chapter to do it. Bolth sides can be taken out of context as you said and I agree.

I have a diferent view of these groups. In the clips I posted. I did not think they showed much restraint at all. In the first clip they tried to ask a simple question and they were not allowed. In the US it is not illegal to hand out tracks or street preach. Personaly if I would of been struck (camera) I don't think I would of held much restraint as I would of viewed it as assult and defended my self. But that is neither here nor there.

I would not mind to hear about the hadith about the war on jews but I don't want to derail the tread to much from the OP. So unless OP gives consent maybe on a new thread.

What about the other Hadith's I adressed?

[Catherine]

Working, there is no confusion about the chapters that I and you quoted, according to the Bible Saul was commanded to butcher men,women,children, and even animals, Saul disobeyed and god regretted his own earlier decision.and how about the verses further up the thread about a couple of jewish lads killing thousands of Palestenians with an oxgoad and fresh jaw bone of a donkey? Is any of these worthy to be coming from god?

in the Book of Job, God destroys the family and livelihood of a righteous man (Job). The main speaker argues with friends as to how this is possible. An angel comes in the chapter 38

Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Upon what are its bases grounded? or who laid the corner stone thereof, When the morning stars praised me together, and all the sons of God made a joyful melody? Who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as issuing out of the womb: When I made a cloud the garment thereof, and wrapped it in a mist as in swaddling bands? I set my bounds around it, and made it bars and doors:

And I said: Hitherto thou shalt come, and shalt go no further, and here thou shalt break thy swelling waves. Didst thou since thy birth command the morning, and shew the dawning of the day its place? [13] And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the ungodly out of it? The seal shall be restored as clay, and shall stand as a garment: From the wicked their light shall be taken away, and the high arm shall be broken.

Hast thou entered into the depths of the sea, and walked in the lowest parts of the deep? Have the gates of death been opened to thee, and hast thou seen the darksome doors? Hast thou considered the breadth of the earth? tell me, if thou knowest all things? Where is the way where light dwelleth, and where is the place of darkness: That thou mayst bring every thing to its own bounds, and understand the paths of the house thereof.

Didst thou know then that thou shouldst be born? and didst thou know the number of thy days? Hast thou entered into the storehouses of the snow, or has thou beheld the treasures of the hail: Which I have prepared for the time of the enemy, against the day of battle and war? By what way is the light spread, and heat divided upon the earth? Who gave a course to violent showers, or a way for noisy thunder:

That it should rain on the earth without man in the wilderness, where no mortal dwelleth: That it should fill the desert and desolate land, and should bring forth green grass? Who is the father of rain? or who begot the drops of dew? Out of whose womb came the ice; and the frost from heaven who hath gendered it? The waters are hardened like a stone, and the surface of the deep is congealed.

Shalt thou be able to join together the shining stars the Pleiades, or canst thou stop the turning about of Arcturus? Canst thou bring forth the day star in its time, and make the evening star to rise upon the children of the earth? Dost thou know the order of heaven, and canst thou set down the reason thereof on the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that an abundance of waters may cover thee? Canst thou send lightnings, and will they go, and will they return and say to thee: Here we are?

Who hath put wisdom in the heart of man? or who gave the #### understanding? Who can declare the order of the heavens, or who can make the harmony of heaven to sleep? When was the dust poured on the earth, and the clods fastened together? Wilt thou take the prey for the lioness, and satisfy the appetite of her whelps, When they couch in the dens and lie in wait in holes?

Who provideth food for the raven, when her young ones cry to God, wandering about, because they have no meat?

or in isaias 45:9

Woe to him that gainsayeth his maker, a sherd of the earthen pots: shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it: What art thou making, and thy work is without hands?

[RAHIMI]

in the Book of Job, God destroys the family and livelihood of a righteous man (Job). The main speaker argues with friends as to how this is possible. An angel comes in the chapter 38
or in isaias 45:9

The story of Job pbuh is well known in Islam, rather that God, it was actually Satan who was responsible for the evil things that befell Job pbuh. I fail to see the connection of what you quoted to 1 Samuel 15. Does this mean that you stand by 1 Samuel 15 and see nothing out of ordinary or wrong with God commanding a bunch of people committing massacres and murdering civilians which include children and animals? and later god regretted his decision of appointing Saul to do the job?

[Catherine]

samuel is the regreting one.

[Catherine]

But the triumpher in israel will not spare, and will not be moved to repentance: for he is not a man that he should repent.

the very area you quote says quite clearly the God does not change, regret or repent. 1 Samuel 15:29