218 replies to this topic

[tom]

Adding to Ixtus ...

Unfortunately, few have the incredibly horrible revelation that ...

IN THE EYES OF AN INCREDIBLY HOLY GOD, man is garbage and is headed for the garbage dump.

And no amount of good deeds, etc. can change this fact ... they are useless.
So, God has come to the rescue with His grace, which only is:
some people will somehow go along with God's plan, and make it to Heaven.

This is what "the Scriptures" (OT and NT) teach us.

i believe you're saying as long as you dont believe jesus is god, your belief in salvation would'nt save you from hell. right? so be it.

lets look at john 4. as you can see god's sending his son, he's not sending himself to save man.

John 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

[IXTUS]

i believe you're saying as long as you dont believe jesus is god, your belief in salvation would'nt save you from hell. right? so be it.

lets look at john 4. as you can see god's sending his son, he's not sending himself to save man.

To say that Jesus is the Son of God is to say that he is God by nature. God the Father sent God the Son. Shall we look at John 1? The word was with God and was God, and has become flesh.

If I told you that the pink panther has saved me by grace through faith because he died for me, do you think that would save me from hell? No, it would be idolatry. So it is not just the content of the message, but the object of faith that matters. Likewise, there are two claim to be Jesus: one who claims to be God and the other who claims to be anything but that. Only one can be real. Only one can be the source of true salvation.

[tom]

To say that Jesus is the Son of God is to say that he is God by nature. God the Father sent God the Son.

dont make sense. trinitarians say one and only god is made up of 3 persons ie god the father, god the son, god the holy spirit. thats gonna mean god the father = god the son = god the holy spirit. in other words despite them being 3 persons, they're infact is one god. right? if that's so then your statement - god the father sent god the son sounds hollow. god dont send himself to save man neither does he wanna send his son afterall they're supposedly one and same god. dont think god wanna switch from father to son or holy spirit and vice versa to make trinity sticks.

Shall we look at John 1? The word was with God and was God, and has become flesh.

if jesus is truly god, john 1 would state it outright. no riddle. it dont make sense when you wanna equate jesus with 'word' - jesus (word) was with god and was god. dont sound right.

anyhow there's good writeup at thread IS JESUS GOD.
(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=734411&st=20&p=1230655&#entry1230655"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...p;#entry1230655[/url]

If I told you that the pink panther has saved me by grace through faith because he died for me, do you think that would save me from hell? No, it would be idolatry. So it is not just the content of the message, but the object of faith that matters. Likewise, there are two claim to be Jesus: one who claims to be God and the other who claims to be anything but that. Only one can be real. Only one can be the source of true salvation.

likewise if jesus is man and not god as you would like to believe, you're gonna be committing blasphemy. if god wanna us be saved via salvation through man, thats no big deal. and i believe that's exactly what god wanna do. he has sent prophets to save us and another chosen good guy wouldnt hurt his power. he neednt make a fuss by switching to man/son/jesus to save us.

[Ameer7]

i believe you're saying as long as you dont believe jesus is god, your belief in salvation
would'nt save you from hell. right? so be it.
lets look at john 4. as you can see god's sending his son, he's not sending himself to save man.

In the salvation passages which make up the basic gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ,
belief in the Triune God is NOT required.
Do you believe that your sins will send you to Hell?
Do you believe God sent Jesus to die for your sins?
Do you believe he was resurrected from the dead, proving he was sent by God (or even, is God)?
Muslims do not believe in the above, which pretty much is the basic gospel.

A belief in the Triune God is not really part of this ... it is a further revelation.
The 3 Persons of the Triune Godhead have different functions.
Does that make any sense to you?

Beyond that, in the Scriptures, God says the words are inspired by Him.
The thoughts are inspired by him, and written down by human beings.
God commands us to believe what He has orchestrated to have written.
What we have is all we have, and it is this that we are commanded to believe.
Hey, if the Scriptures say God is a Triune God, just believe it.
God said it, I believe it, that's the end of it.
Anyone who tries to use logic and reasoning to try to figure out spiritual things is a fool.
Intellect, education, logic, etc. have nothing to do with spiritual truth.

[IXTUS]

if jesus is truly god, john 1 would state it outright. no riddle. it dont make sense when you wanna equate jesus with 'word' - jesus (word) was with god and was god. dont sound right.

Hey, if the Scriptures say God is a Triune God, just believe it.

Well, we could start with this: "... Christ ... is God over all, blessed forever. Amen" (Romans 9:5).

You could sum up the doctrine of Trinity in four points that the Bible teaches. The first two are easy: 1) There is only one God, and 2) The Father is God. I think we can agree that the Bible clearly teaches both of those two points. The 3rd would be that the Holy Spirit is God, but since I have no idea where you stand on this, and since it is besides the point we will skip it for now.

Point #4 is crucial to the Gospel itself: Jesus is God. Paul said it clearly enough in the verse above. And it is no riddle in John 1:

"verse 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
verse 14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ..."

Who is the Word? Here it is God, and it is also Jesus Himself who "became flesh and dwelt among us." So you have both John and Paul telling you clearly that Jesus is God. I will round it out with a quote from Jesus as well: "...before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). Didn't God tell Moses the same thing when Moses asked what God's name was? "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.' ... 'Say this to the people of israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So the Scriptures say that Jesus is God. Do you believe it?

[tom]

In the salvation passages which make up the basic gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ,
belief in the Triune God is NOT required.
Do you believe that your sins will send you to Hell?
Do you believe God sent Jesus to die for your sins?
Do you believe he was resurrected from the dead, proving he was sent by God (or even, is God)?
Muslims do not believe in the above, which pretty much is the basic gospel.

A belief in the Triune God is not really part of this ... it is a further revelation.
The 3 Persons of the Triune Godhead have different functions.
Does that make any sense to you?

what are the functions?

Beyond that, in the Scriptures, God says the words are inspired by Him.
The thoughts are inspired by him, and written down by human beings.
God commands us to believe what He has orchestrated to have written.
What we have is all we have, and it is this that we are commanded to believe.
Hey, if the Scriptures say God is a Triune God, just believe it.
God said it, I believe it, that's the end of it.
Anyone who tries to use logic and reasoning to try to figure out spiritual things is a fool.
Intellect, education, logic, etc. have nothing to do with spiritual truth.

i've stated this before and i'm repeating it - god gives us brain to enable us to understand the bible and abide by its teachins. hence there're things in it that we accept blindly and things that we gotta use logic. jesus' birth via blessed virgin mary is a miracle that we dont question. on the other hand we cant accept triune god blindly when shema said god is ONE not triune. so when you wanna stress this ONE god is infact 3 persons in ONE triune god, you gotta come up with foolproof facts. blind faith has its limit.

if god's truly 3 persons in ONE, he would have told us loud and clear that he's god the father, god the son jesus and god the holy spirit all in one. likewise jesus and holy spirit. but as you can see they NEVER declare themselves as god the son and god the holy spirit respectively much less god himself announcing he's 3 in 1. what you've done is making assumptions which can be overturned.

i read somewhere in the net that jesus called himself son of god about 50 times, he's not called himself god the son not even once.

Edited by tom, 02 June 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[tom]

Well, we could start with this: "... Christ ... is God over all, blessed forever. Amen" (Romans 9:5).

You could sum up the doctrine of Trinity in four points that the Bible teaches. The first two are easy: 1) There is only one God, and 2) The Father is God. I think we can agree that the Bible clearly teaches both of those two points. The 3rd would be that the Holy Spirit is God, but since I have no idea where you stand on this, and since it is besides the point we will skip it for now.

Point #4 is crucial to the Gospel itself: Jesus is God. Paul said it clearly enough in the verse above. And it is no riddle in John 1:

"verse 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
verse 14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ..."

Who is the Word? Here it is God, and it is also Jesus Himself who "became flesh and dwelt among us." So you have both John and Paul telling you clearly that Jesus is God. I will round it out with a quote from Jesus as well: "...before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). Didn't God tell Moses the same thing when Moses asked what God's name was? "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.' ... 'Say this to the people of israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So the Scriptures say that Jesus is God. Do you believe it?

NO

if god thinks its CRUCIAL for him to be god the son jesus and god the holy spirit, he neednt make use of paul, john and others to tell us so. he would have stated it in shema that ONE GOD is infact 3 persons in one god.

and 'I AM' as proof that jesus' god is not convincing. if jesus truly wanna tell us hes god, he easily could have said 'I AM GOD'. he neednt shy away from telling the truth (if him being god is the truth) consequently resulting in different interpretations - yours that hes god and mine that hes no god.

rebuttal that jesus is god can be found in the first few pages in this thread and in thread IS JESUS GOD.

[The Shrew]

I think we may need to revive that thread as it was not proven Jesus Christ is not God as it keeps getting referred to. The truth of the matter is religion is never simple. That is why it is called faith. Faith that Jesus Christ says who he said he is and did what is recorded of Him.

[tom]

I think we may need to revive that thread as it was not proven Jesus Christ is not God as it keeps getting referred to. The truth of the matter is religion is never simple. That is why it is called faith. Faith that Jesus Christ says who he said he is and did what is recorded of Him.

beg to differ. that thread may not prove jesus is no god to you but it is to me. jesus clearly said he prayed to father meaning he's no god. no assumption gonna change that fact.

[Ameer7]

what are the functions?
i read somewhere in the net that jesus called himself son of god about 50 times,
he's not called himself god the son not even once.

I saw the functions once, but forget exactly ... it's something like:
Father ... The Commander-in-Chief
Son ... The Organizer, or ???
Holy Spirit ... The Workhorse

Jesus called Himself God (I AM) about 7 times (with no "he" after "I AM" in the Greek).
Others said He was God, or equal to Father God, etc. 10+ times.
Jesus said He was the Son of God (name/title only) 3 or 4 times.
You can find them on the Internet.

[Ameer7]

i've stated this before and i'm repeating it -

Yes, me too ...
For some people, believing in the Triune God requires a spiritual revelation.
It seems that many others just believe it by blind faith.

Edited by Ameer7, 03 June 2011 - 04:58 PM.

[Ameer7]

jesus clearly said he prayed to father meaning he's no god.

Apparently, the early church fathers said Jesus the Christ (Messiah) was "fully God and fully man".

It's my belief that Jesus was NOT "fully God".
The man called JESUS had the Second Person of the Triune God inside of Him,
but He was still a human being, and thus was very limited.
Jesus Christ was extraordinarily successful on earth because ...
He was greatly anointed and received instructions and spiritual insight from Father God
(through a lot of prayer), and was the benefactor of the enormous spiritual power of the Holy Spirit.
My proof is this ...
"And the power of the Lord was present to heal them." (Luke 5:17)
I.e. The multitudes were not healed under Jesus' power,
but were healed under the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's also my belief that Jesus was NOT "fully man".
My proof is this ...
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens,
Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:14-15)
Maybe it's only semantics, but how could He be "fully man" and not have our sin nature?

Edited by Ameer7, 03 June 2011 - 05:29 PM.

[The Shrew]

beg to differ. that thread may not prove jesus is no god to you but it is to me. jesus clearly said he prayed to father meaning he's no god. no assumption gonna change that fact.

I am assuming that we bolth read the same Holy Book. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But the Bible is quite clear about it. No assumption needed. But this may be a topic for a different thread.

Apparently, the early church fathers said Jesus the Christ (Messiah) was "fully God and fully man".

It's my belief that Jesus was NOT "fully God".
The man called JESUS had the Second Person of the Triune God inside of Him,
but He was still a human being, and thus was very limited.
Jesus Christ was extraordinarily successful on earth because ...
He was greatly anointed and received instructions and spiritual insight from Father God
(through a lot of prayer), and was the benefactor of the enormous spiritual power of the Holy Spirit.
My proof is this ...
"And the power of the Lord was present to heal them." (Luke 5:17)
I.e. The multitudes were not healed under Jesus' power,
but were healed under the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's also my belief that Jesus was NOT "fully man".
My proof is this ...
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens,
Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:14-15)
Maybe it's only semantics, but how could He be "fully man" and not have our sin nature?

So where do you fall on what Jesus is? I guess I would like to know in plane words.

As for how could he be "fully man" and not have a sinful nature? It is called the Immaculate Conception. RC theology. I can post it latter if you are interested. Got to go.

God Bless

[Ameer7]

So where do you fall on what Jesus is? I guess I would like to know in plane words.
As for how could he be "fully man" and not have a sinful nature?
It is called the Immaculate Conception. RC theology.

I dunno, maybe I can't write using plain words.

Isn't the Immaculate Conception just the simple fact that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' father,
meaning that Jesus didn't come from man's sperm (which contains man's sin nature)?

Normal man (who is "fully man") isn't created in such a fashion,
and that's why I believe that Jesus cannot be considered "fully man".

And that's why I see the Second Person of the Triune God in Heaven,
(one of His many titles/names being "Son of God")
as NOT being identical to "the Son of man" (called "Jesus") on earth.

[The Shrew]

[quote]name='Ameer7' date='Jun 3 2011, 07:06 PM' post='1239123']
I dunno, maybe I can't write using plain words.[/quote]

IDK. Just seems to me your on the fence or something. Just trying to understand you I guess.

[quote]Isn't the Immaculate Conception just the simple fact that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' father,
meaning that Jesus didn't come from man's sperm (which contains man's sin nature)?[/quote]

Sorry I mixed up my terminology. I was thinking one thing and typed another. In a way they are related though. No the Immaculate Conception refers to the Virgin Mary. Not the Virgin Birth of Christ. Below is a snippet from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in reguard to the Immaculate Conception.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137


[quote]Normal man (who is "fully man") isn't created in such a fashion,
and that's why I believe that Jesus cannot be considered "fully man".[/quote]

Yes, ok Christ was not a normal man. He was concieved through the Holy Spirit.

[quote]And that's why I see the Second Person of the Triune God in Heaven,
(one of His many titles/names being "Son of God")
as NOT being identical to "the Son of man" (called "Jesus") on earth.[/quote]

Christ's duality can be a difficult thing to understand though the Holy Bible is quite plain on it I think.

John 10:30 [30] I and the Father are one.

John 10:36 [36] Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Matthew 4:7 [7] Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Luke 22:70 [70] Then said they all: Art thou then the Son of God? Who said: You say that I am.

[tom]

I saw the functions once, but forget exactly ... it's something like:
Father ... The Commander-in-Chief
Son ... The Organizer, or ???
Holy Spirit ... The Workhorse

dont sound right. trinitarians believe in 3 persons in 1 god. god the father = god the son jesus = god the holy spirit in 1 god. if god the father is commander in chief, obviously the other 2 should be in that level as well. unlike you, i dont see the 3 persons in 1 god in commander in chief (father) = organizer (son jesus) = workhorse (holy spirit) in 1 god. if jesus is man and holy spirit is no god, it would then make sense ie jesus and holy spirit carrying out commander in chief cum god the father cum god's bidding.

Jesus called Himself God (I AM) about 7 times (with no "he" after "I AM" in the Greek).
Others said He was God, or equal to Father God, etc. 10+ times.
Jesus said He was the Son of God (name/title only) 3 or 4 times.
You can find them on the Internet.

the functions that you've given have rendered trinitarians' belief null and void. since jesus is only an organizer he couldnt be the commander in chief cum almighty god.

[tom]

Yes, me too ...
For some people, believing in the Triune God requires a spiritual revelation.
It seems that many others just believe it by blind faith.

perhaps you're right. then again it's unlike god to teach us in riddles and expect us to hear and obey via spiritual revelation or blind faith. majority chrisitians are triniarians and i bet most of them follow blindly.

[tom]

Apparently, the early church fathers said Jesus the Christ (Messiah) was "fully God and fully man".

perhaps its not so. jews then were very much against jesus. they even killed him via the romans. hence early christians would be in the soup if they were to say jesus is god or 'fully god and fully man'. dont think early christians were trinitarians.

It's my belief that Jesus was NOT "fully God".
The man called JESUS had the Second Person of the Triune God inside of Him,
but He was still a human being, and thus was very limited.
Jesus Christ was extraordinarily successful on earth because ...
He was greatly anointed and received instructions and spiritual insight from Father God
(through a lot of prayer), and was the benefactor of the enormous spiritual power of the Holy Spirit.
My proof is this ...
"And the power of the Lord was present to heal them." (Luke 5:17)
I.e. The multitudes were not healed under Jesus' power,
but were healed under the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's also my belief that Jesus was NOT "fully man".
My proof is this ...
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens,
Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:14-15)
Maybe it's only semantics, but how could He be "fully man" and not have our sin nature?

i dont get any spiritual revelation from your explanation. it somewhat strengthens my belief nonetheless that trinitrians are confused (beg your pardon, dont mean to offense). the fact that jesus 'received instructions and spiritual insight from father god', thats gonna mean he's no god. he's son of god as stated in the bible and never god the son. him supposedly being almighty god is based on assumptions made on biblical verses. one couldnt even imagine almighty god wanna be fully man and fully god or half man half god (jesus) inorder to save man from sins that they've committed via temptations from satan. it looks like god has got to save his creations man from his creation satan. sounds odd.

Edited by tom, 04 June 2011 - 10:03 AM.

[tom]

I am assuming that we bolth read the same Holy Book. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But the Bible is quite clear about it. No assumption needed. But this may be a topic for a different thread.

we're reading the same book only you tuned yourself to jesus is god while i dont. for instance in john 8:17 and 18, you're gonna say jesus professed he's god but me, i'm taking it literally that he's sent by god to save man.

john 8
17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.
18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Edited by tom, 04 June 2011 - 10:14 AM.

[Ameer7]

Christ's duality can be a difficult thing to understand though the Holy Bible is quite plain on it I think.

In the Holy Scriptures ... sometimes Jesus is talking as a man, and sometimes He is talking as God.
While He was on earth for 33 years, He obviously was both.
For example, when He was praying to Father God for all kinds of things, He was speaking as a man,
especially when He was asking if it was necessary for Him to suffer crucifixion (the worst way to die).
In the Scriptures, He tells us very clearly ...
He knew that was the reason why He came to earth ... to shed His blood for our sins.
But, as a man, in His flesh, He certainly wasn't looking forward to that horrible experience!
Theoretically, all He had to do was shed His blood ... to continue on God's blood covenants.
But, the crucifixion just made God's incredible sacrifice all the more impressive.