150 replies to this topic

[Benedict]

[quote]name='Redeem' date='Jun 4 2011, 10:50 AM' post='1239160']
I didn't realize this was a contest, nor did you make it a criteria in your first post that we should strive to please you. You made an inquiry, you received a response from an Islamic perspective.[/quote]

Ha ha. That is not what was implied I think you know that. I expected a reasoned answere. That would be like me saying Islam is false because there was roughly 600 years between Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Christ (I don't mean to offend by saying this. Sorry if I do).


[quote]The alleged death of Jesus is not a minor occurence. Proof of this lies in the fact that one of the greatest tennets of Christianity is that Jesus died for the sins of man. It's not just the fact that Christianity believes this about any man. If this had been said about the Buddha, then the Qur'an wouldn't have bothered with it.[/quote]

I realize this is not minor. It is absolutly huge. That is why I asked this question. I am trying to learn and continue my journy.

[quote]It is that this has been said about one of the five greatest Messengers of Allah and the one who preceded the prophet Muhammad.
We believe that prophet Isa was a Messenger of Allah, and that he received revelation from Allah. We do not believe that your religious books are those revelations that he received.
It does not say any of this in the Qur'an.[/quote]

Thank you on clairfication. So none of Christ's teachings from the Bible are relevant? That is quite a statement.

[quote]And even then, it's a faulty premise. People believe all the time that their loved ones have died, when that is not the case. And people believe all the time that their loved ones are alive when that is not true either. Did God make her a disbeliever? Nope. Even if she did think that her son died, she herself died as a believer. That is your proof that God loved her.[/quote]

I don't know of any other case where someone has thought what you stated. No the BVM was not made a disbeliever. As a side note does Islam record any where of the BVM death and burial place? Catholics Believe something different about the BVM.

[quote]Just as God loved Joseph's father who believed for many years that his son had been killed by animals.
Do you realize that an atheist could walk up in here and argue that the most successful lie that God has made people believe is that He doesn't exist?[/quote]

That is a good statement and quite true. Though I don't think God makes people believe He doesn't exist. People shut their mind and soul and do not listen or look. But yes I see your point.

[Benedict]

Yes, I wanted to use an example from his own religion's teachings to prove a point. If he thinks that it is trickery if God did not tell Mary that her son was not dead, then he must also acknowledge that it was also trickery when God did not tell Jacob his son was alive. I am almost certain that Christians believe Jacob did not know that Joseph was still alive, but even if he did, I'm sure I could peruse the Bible and find many things that, as you pointed out, even the prophets did not know.

Ok here is the deal. I'm just saying at a read what it read like. God can use what appears evil as good and vice versa. God will test his followers. That has been demonstrated over and over in any Holy Book (Jewish, Muslim, Christian).

[Younes]

The point was that a eclipse was not posible at the time. And that it was a sign of God. Yes all of creation is a sign of God. I love agreement even in part.

Okay, the source for this solar eclipse claim I found the following:

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the Passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour falls on the day before the Passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun?" - Julius Africanus

Julius Africanus is a Christian historian. The problem here is that we don't have the direct words of Thallus. It is not a direct quote of Thallus. We don't know in which context he said it. We don't know if Thallus was speaking of the crucifixion. We don't know what year is in question, what month, what day. The reason why I take this with a grain of salt is because it was mentioned by a Christian writer who was trying to prove the miraculous events surrounding the crucifixion. For all we know, Thallus just mentioned a normal solar eclipse and Julius just thought that it MUST have referred to the miraculous events surrounding the crucifxion. I mean after all he was trying to prove that miraculous events were globa as per his own wordsl: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness".

I've seen too many Christians, Muslims, atheists and some sort of Pagans jump to all sorts of conclusion. They read some text and then go, "This MUST refer to this!" and when you read the actual text, it doesn't really speak of anything that sort. They just jump to quick conclusions. Do we just have to assume that Thallus mentioned a solar eclipse during the day before the Passover when the crucifixion allegedly happened just because Julius Africanus uses his mention of a solar eclipse in that context? I am sorry but I am not going to make that hasty connection.

Now if you have something of the Jewish Temple being miraculously destroyed and rebuilt, I'd be very interested. But this eclipse thing is not that convincing due to a huge lack of context.

[tonnyj]

Right now I'm read a book by a Christian scholar, Bart Erhman. In his book, 'Misquoting Jesus', he mentions that there are over 5000 manuscripts that are being used to produce the bible. But the main problem I'm finding is that none of these manuscripts date back to the date of when Jesus was alive. I believe the oldest manuscript they have is from 200 AD. Thats 200 years of authentic teachings written in textual format missing! Also so many different ideologies were emerging after Christ's death. Some believed he was only man and not divine. Some believed he was both. Some believed he was only divine and not man at all. Since the time of Christ's death, so many people were learning different ideas of what he was about. So they boycott one another, rise up in arms against each other, emperors who saw this phenomenon happening, exploit the people to gain followers for their own kingdoms. (trying to harmonize things in the name of politics) So for all I know, so this so called book of religion, seems nothing more than a religion of books. Thats just a bit of what I can explain. More to comprehend that is blowing my mind. But yea if so many texts were altered in the bible up to this day, who knows the crazy ideas we've believed as true for so long, when in fact there is high chance almost all crucial parts of the texts were altered. ( for the sake of harmonizing the words and people)

[Redeem]

Ha ha. That is not what was implied I think you know that. I expected a reasoned answere. That would be like me saying Islam is false because there was roughly 600 years between Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Christ (I don't mean to offend by saying this. Sorry if I do).

I wouldn't say that your analogy is parallel to this scenario. This is because the number of years between the two Messengers has no correlation to the veracity of their messages.

Whereas in this case, whether or not something should be addressed or dealt with depends entirely on how important or relevant the issue itself is. This is pretty basic as a logical foundation, and it's applicable in almost all areas of life, religious or otherwise.

Fact: The alleged death of Jesus is the foundation of Christian belief about forgiveness, making it very important as an issue.
Fact: The Qur'an responds to it.

Salam.

[tonnyj]

Means of expiating sin


2 – Praying for forgiveness. It was narrated in al-Saheehayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If a person commits a sin, then says, ‘O Lord, I have committed a sin so forgive me,’ He says, ‘My slave knows that he has a Lord Who may forgive sins or punish for it; I have forgiven My slave…’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6953; Muslim, 4953)

In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If you did not commit sin, Allaah would do away with you and bring people who would commit sins then ask Him to forgive them, so He would forgive them.” (al-Tawbah, 4936)


IslamQA

How come if someone who does not commit sin, Allah would do away with him? He purposely wants us to sin against him? I dont understand. I can imply this means he just wants supreme dominion over us and for us to look at ourselves as slaves of Him, but is that it?

[Redeem]

How come if someone who does not commit sin, Allah would do away with him? He purposely wants us to sin against him? I dont understand. I can imply this means he just wants supreme dominion over us and for us to look at ourselves as slaves of Him, but is that it?

If man did not sin, this would mean he is incapable of it because it is human nature to do at least some bad. Prophet Muhammad said in another Hadith: “Every son of Adam sins, and the best of those who sin are those who repent.” [At-Tirmidhi]

This Hadith is meant to encourage those who fear that their sins are too great or abundant; it reassures them that falling into error is a human thing, but what's more important is having the understanding to turn sincerely to Allah for forgiveness. Allah intended for a creation with free will to inhabit the earth, which would be us. If we did not sin, then it would most likely mean that we did not have free will. Allah would have replaced us with other beings who are capable of exercising their free will.

Edit: I think this article explains it better:

If you did not commit sins
By Wael Abdelgawad for IslamicSunrays(contact admin if its a beneficial link)

The Messenger of Allah (sal-Allahu alayhi wa-sallam – peace be upon him) said, “If you did not commit sins, Allah would sweep you out of existence and replace you by another people who would commit sins, ask for Allah’s forgiveness and He would forgive them.” (reported by Muslim). This may sound odd at first – does Allah want us to sin? The answer is no, He does not want us to sin, but He knows that we will, and He wants us to ask forgiveness, to return to Him, and to know that He is always there ready to welcome us back.

That’s part of Allah’s plan for us. Allah created us with a certain nature, and the essence of that nature is free will, and a consequence of that is that we commit sins, and if we are believers then we repent and return to Allah. That is the part that Allah loves: the repentance, the voluntary return.

Allah did not create us to be angels. He already had uncounted angels to do His bidding. Creatures of light, they hear and obey, perfect in their compliance because they lack free will.

But Allah wanted to bring something different into the universe: a creature of free will, submitting to Allah out of choice. Worship and faith freely given are infinitely more valuable than that which is done without volition. The flip side is that a creature of free will can commit sins; he can be destructive and rebellious. The sweet and the bitter are two inseparable expressions of human nature. The hope is that righteousness and obedience will predominate.

Allah tells us in the Quran 2:30, of the time long ago when He informed the angels that He would create humanity:

“And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make upon the earth a khalifah (successive authority/agent/trustee).” They said, “Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?” Allah said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know.”

The scholars have said, by the way, that the jinn had already been created on earth and had caused much mischief, and that’s why the angels thought to ask the question about corruption and bloodshed.

Notice that Allah did not answer the angels by saying, “No, the humans beings will not cause trouble.” He said, “I know that which you do not know.”

In other words, yes, this khalifah might indeed fail in his duty, he might cause corruption and shed blood, but there is something special about him that warrants his creation anyway; something that justifies his existence. There’s another aspect to him, something noble and even heroic.

When a person does a terrible thing, for example murders a child, some people say, “How could God allow this to happen?” This question expresses a misunderstanding of the relationship between Allah and humanity. Allah does not want us to sin. He gives us guidance and commands us not to do evil. But if He were to physically interfere and stop human beings from hurting each other, He would effectively abolish our free will, and we would no longer be human. We would be angels, or we’d be creatures of pure physicality like trees and stars, worshiping Allah through conformity to the natural laws of the universe. To take away our free will would be to strip us of our potential for true piety, bravery and even love. Would you really want to live in a universe without love? What a terrible loss that would be.

So here we are, creatures of choice. Earnest but obstinate. We mess up. We betray ourselves and others, we do terrible things, we feel sadness, shame and regret.

What is Allah’s attitude toward this? He condemns the sins we commit, but He waits for us to repent, and when we do He welcomes us. If we go to Him crawling, He comes to us walking, and if we go to Him walking, He comes to us running, as the Prophet (pbuh) reported in a famous Hadith Qudsi:

“Allah says, ‘I am just as My servant thinks I am, and I am with him if he remembers Me. If he remembers Me in himself, I too, remember him in Myself; and if he remembers Me in a group of people, I remember him in a group that is better than them; and if he comes one span nearer to Me, I go one cubit nearer to him; and if he comes one cubit nearer to Me, I go a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running.’ “ [Sahih Al-Bukhâri, 9/7405 (O.P.502)].

People write to me (personally or through IslamicAnswers(contact admin if its a beneficial link)) and they say, “I have done terrible things, Allah will never forgive me, I am doomed to Hell, I feel like committing suicide.”

This way of thinking is completely wrong. Allah will forgive you. He loves to forgive. That’s why the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to ask Allah’s forgiveness seventy times every day even without committing any sin (SubhanAllah!). You are not doomed. You must not take your own life, for that is the ultimate irrevocable sin.

Who do you imagine Allah is speaking to when He says,

“O my servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. Verily, Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Quran 39:53).

He is speaking to you, and to me, and to every one of us.

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, “One who sincerely repents of his sin is as if he had never committed it. When Allah loves one of His servants, his sins do not harm him. Then he (the Prophet pbuh) recited the verse: ‘Assuredly, Allah loves the oft-repentant and those who always seek to purify themselves.”“

Don’t kill yourself over your past mistakes. I mean this literally and figuratively. Never think that Allah will not forgive. Allah knows that we are creatures prone to sin. He knew it even before He created Adam and Hawaa, but He had His own plan for us, and part of that plan is forgiveness.

Salam.

[Hasib]

What is the huge deal if Jesus Christ was Crucified or not

Okay.. I'm sure you are aware of the council of nicea?

In case you aren't.. prior to this council of bishops and other high church clergymen it was a widely held belief that JC was a human being, a prophet even but not God and certainly not son or nephew .. It was in this conference they threw out any gospels that didn't speak of his divinity.. why must only the gospels according to matthew, mark, luke and john be considered to be in the king james bible;- i use this because its the most widely read bible.

There were other gospels in that time that spoke of JC as a man, a prophet and even dare I say....... ........ the future coming of the next prophet Mohamed .......... but these were dropped by the clergymen.

Ask yourself about this.

Thanks,
H

[tonnyj]

Allah did not create us to be angels. He already had uncounted angels to do His bidding. Creatures of light, they hear and obey, perfect in their compliance because they lack free will.

But Allah wanted to bring something different into the universe: a creature of free will, submitting to Allah out of choice. Worship and faith freely given are infinitely more valuable than that which is done without volition. The flip side is that a creature of free will can commit sins; he can be destructive and rebellious. The sweet and the bitter are two inseparable expressions of human nature. The hope is that righteousness and obedience will predominate.


When a person does a terrible thing, for example murders a child, some people say, “How could God allow this to happen?” This question expresses a misunderstanding of the relationship between Allah and humanity. Allah does not want us to sin. He gives us guidance and commands us not to do evil. But if He were to physically interfere and stop human beings from hurting each other, He would effectively abolish our free will, and we would no longer be human. We would be angels, or we’d be creatures of pure physicality like trees and stars, worshiping Allah through conformity to the natural laws of the universe. To take away our free will would be to strip us of our potential for true piety, bravery and even love. Would you really want to live in a universe without love? What a terrible loss that would be.

So if angels have no free will, how did devils come into being? Aren't devil's considered as fallen angels? (Angel's of free will?)

Okay.. I'm sure you are aware of the council of nicea?

In case you aren't.. prior to this council of bishops and other high church clergymen it was a widely held belief that JC was a human being, a prophet even but not God and certainly not son or nephew .. It was in this conference they threw out any gospels that didn't speak of his divinity.. why must only the gospels according to matthew, mark, luke and john be considered to be in the king james bible;- i use this because its the most widely read bible.

Yes. This is the big problem with the bible. Where does it prophesy that a roman pagan king (Constitine) ,will be the messenger of God? This emperor just comes in and tries to gain political control using the new Christian faith phenomenon as a way to do so. What does that got anything to do with God?

[In War with me]

So if angels have no free will, how did devils come into being? Aren't devil's considered as fallen angels? (Angel's of free will?)

No,devils/Shayatheen(Plural of Shaythan) are a race among the jinns.They are the troops/offsprings of Iblees,the ex pious jinn who later became jealous and arrogant when he was asked to prostrate to Adam.

[tonnyj]

So then angels do have free will. They chose to disobey God by prostrating to Adam. Doesn't that contradict with what Redeem says, that humans are made with free will unlike angels?

[Younes]

So then angels do have free will. They chose to disobey God by prostrating to Adam. Doesn't that contradict with what Redeem says, that humans are made with free will unlike angels?

No, they obeyed God by prostrating to Adam (pbuh). The Angels (pbut) cannot disobey God. The one who disobeyed and refused was Iblis. Iblis is from a species called Jinn. Jinn are a species that have free will and shall be judged by God just as humans. There are Muslims Jinns also. Basically they are like humans except we can't see them. They have their good and their bad. They have different religions also. The meanest of this species are the Satans and their leader is Iblis. Iblis, may he be cursed for ever, used to live among the Angels (pbut) and was also commanded by God to prostrate to Adam (pbuh) but he refused. Since God expelled him from the presence of the Angels (pbut) and cursed him, he asked God for respite (time) until the Day of Resurrection. God gave him respite and then he declared his enemity to Adam (pbuh) and said he will mislead his progeny. Thus he became Satan. Satan is the one who caused Adam's (pbuh) downfall. He told Adam (pbuh) and his wife that God only forbade them to eat from the tree lest they become eternal beings or like Angels (pbut). He swore to them that he was their sincere adviser, thus he is the deceiver.

Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! (18:50)

[tonnyj]

Okay so there is the Creator, the angels, jinn, and humans. So the only things created with free will for jinn and humans?

[Younes]

Okay so there is the Creator, the angels, jinn, and humans. So the only things created with free will for jinn and humans?

You got it.

[Benedict]

Okay.. I'm sure you are aware of the council of nicea?

In case you aren't.. prior to this council of bishops and other high church clergymen it was a widely held belief that JC was a human being, a prophet even but not God and certainly not son or nephew .. It was in this conference they threw out any gospels that didn't speak of his divinity.. why must only the gospels according to matthew, mark, luke and john be considered to be in the king james bible;- i use this because its the most widely read bible.

There were other gospels in that time that spoke of JC as a man, a prophet and even dare I say....... ........ the future coming of the next prophet Mohamed .......... but these were dropped by the clergymen.

Ask yourself about this.

Thanks,
H

Yes, I am familiar with the Council of Nicea. That is where the final cannon was settled amongst others in A.D. 325. What proofs do you have that it was not a held belief?? I'm sorry you are using a incomplete Bible. The KJB is a flawed translation. That would be another thread though.

I'm assuming you are refering to the gospel of barnibus (sp?) What other gnostic gospels would you be refering to? Enlighten me.

[Benedict]

[quote]name='Redeem' date='Jun 4 2011, 09:57 PM' post='1239207']
I wouldn't say that your analogy is parallel to this scenario. This is because the number of years between the two Messengers has no correlation to the veracity of their messages.[/quote]

I would say it is. Other wise 600 years or so went by with many being lead astray. That would mean the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's Church. St. Matthew 16:18 [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So you would be at this point calling Jesus Christ (God) a bold face liar in my book. Or in yours the prophet/messenger Jesus.

[quote]Whereas in this case, whether or not something should be addressed or dealt with depends entirely on how important or relevant the issue itself is. This is pretty basic as a logical foundation, and it's applicable in almost all areas of life, religious or otherwise.

Fact: The alleged death of Jesus is the foundation of Christian belief about forgiveness, making it very important as an issue.
Fact: The Qur'an responds to it.
Salam.[/quote]

All things at some point need to be delt with. Regardless of its importance.

As to the two facts you listed. Yes and Yes.

[Christine-1208]

I don't see it as irrelevant. The reason I say this is these people are over all very anti Christian. Tacitus was very anti Christian. Quite posible they liked the nose rub but only to make them look foolish. I will have to research and read further to answere the last part.
Well would be interesting what would of been said had they been eyewitnesses. From a Christian stand point His teachings were not changed. Christ's teachings are quite difficult to follow. If it happened as Quran states yes. The hardest rift to get past is we bolth believe and follow two different Holy Books. Bolth of us do not trust the others Holy Book and think them wrong. I do not mean to offend by saying this but it is truth. We (Christians and Muslims) use them to find fault with one another. But it is at the same rate what we believe. It is a huge learining curve.

No offense taken, working man. I think that is human nature anyway. I just wanted to add a few things I hope you don't mind.

Working man, I understand your point about the NT and the cruxifixion. However one thing that got me was with the NT, they can't even get the death of Judas correct. In Matthew he hangs himself. In Acts he jumps off a cliff headlong spilling his guts. If they can't get this right with a traitor to Jesus, then how do expect them to get the cruxifixion right? I have read many theories. On where Judas had the nickname of Thomas which means "twin". During the scuffle at the garden they took Judas and not Jesus. Interesting enough since we have no real idea on Judas's death. Paul is the founder of Christainity, and not Jesus. Sadly in the bible there is more attributed to him than Jesus.

Another thing, all those "blood" sacrifices were animals, not a human being. As well as Jesus was not very "willing" to die. He was very distraught and begged God to not do this. Which brings me to the one God issue. Why and who was he praying to if they are one in the same.

Working man, close your eyes for one second. Think of God the Father and what to you he looks like. Now think of Jesus Christ. Now think of the Holy spirit. For each one you had different attributes I am sure. When Catholic and I did this, God was an old man with a long white beard. Jesus, well we all know that one and the Holy Spirit was a dove. The point is your mind has 3 separate attributes, which are unable to ever be condensed into ONE thing. The Christian Trinity - in as much as it admits a plurality of persons in the deity, attributes distinct personal properties to each person; and makes use of family names similar to those in the pagan mythology.

I'll post more..lol I have to finish reading what everyone wrote.... Geez, you miss a few days.

[Benedict]

tonnyj, I'm assumming you are reffering about Dr. Bart Erhman? The man who wrote "Misquoting Jesus". This man is a frodulent .......... in my oppinion. There are so many better "scholors" to read.

[Catherine]

Yes, I am familiar with the Council of Nicea. That is where the final cannon was settled amongst others in A.D. 325. What proofs do you have that it was not a held belief?? I'm sorry you are using a incomplete Bible. The KJB is a flawed translation. That would be another thread though.

I'm assuming you are refering to the gospel of barnibus (sp?) What other gnostic gospels would you be refering to? Enlighten me.

Adding to what you have said, workingman, i'd like to talk a bit about authority. The Bible gets its authority from the Church, not the other way around. That is what your point brings up Hasib, and its something Catholics are very conversant in. Its a problem for protestants who are scripture alone; but for the Church which existed before the Canon, it is not.


And brings up a unique comparison to Islam, which also is based only on scripture, like the protestants; discovered old texts which contradict your current ones are devastating to the logical basis of your faith. Furthermore, God is silent to you; it is impossible to add or subtract anything to the corpus of God's Word, to you. Because the authority is the institution of the Church, God can still talk to us.

This is especially troubling because all sacred texts are not exhaustive; new situations come up that are not in the books. There can only be division in them for your faith, while ours can reach consensus and truth, and has the tools necessary to derive God's will. Yours is forever stuck to the finite text. Would God endorse a faith that is doomed to fail?

Edited by Catherine, 07 June 2011 - 10:29 PM.

[Catherine]

Another thing, all those "blood" sacrifices were animals, not a human being. As well as Jesus was not very "willing" to die. He was very distraught and begged God to not do this. Which brings me to the one God issue. Why and who was he praying to if they are one in the same.

100% God, and also 100% Man. Jesus was a flawless man as well as God, and men pray to God the Father, as well as to Christ the prime intercessor. This is standard issue dogma.