150 replies to this topic

[tonnyj]

Yes, I have preference over heretics. Luther for his flaws also had valid points that made sense. Mainly on some problems at the time. I also listed others. Interesting you focus in on just that one. Do you not like the Early Church Fathers?

No I should read from more different scholars. But sometimes fact is fact even if most of the guys you dislike speaking bring up something universally accepted. (So many manuscripts that are not identical to each other at all)

Working man, close your eyes for one second. Think of God the Father and what to you he looks like. Now think of Jesus Christ. Now think of the Holy spirit. For each one you had different attributes I am sure. When Catholic and I did this, God was an old man with a long white beard. Jesus, well we all know that one and the Holy Spirit was a dove. The point is your mind has 3 separate attributes, which are unable to ever be condensed into ONE thing. The Christian Trinity - in as much as it admits a plurality of persons in the deity, attributes distinct personal properties to each person; and makes use of family names similar to those in the pagan mythology.

This is how I think of the Trinity. Take for example the day of Jesus' crucifixion. Now Jesus is supposed to be God according to the Trinity. Okay so we can say God is all knowing correct? Why would Jesus cry out to God saying, 'why have you forsaken me?' if Jesus knew this event was supposed to take place? Was Jesus just putting on a show for God? Was this all just a big show? If it was, that's just plain wrong. And if it wasn't, Jesus didn't know he was going to be in so much pain and forsaken by God. And if Jesus didn't know what was going to happen to him for him to cry out 'why have you forsaken me?', means he is not all knowing like God. Hence he is not God. So who still believes in the Trinity?

[tonnyj]

No, they obeyed God by prostrating to Adam (pbuh). The Angels (pbut) cannot disobey God. The one who disobeyed and refused was Iblis. Iblis is from a species called Jinn. Jinn are a species that have free will and shall be judged by God just as humans. There are Muslims Jinns also. Basically they are like humans except we can't see them. They have their good and their bad. They have different religions also. The meanest of this species are the Satans and their leader is Iblis. Iblis, may he be cursed for ever, used to live among the Angels (pbut) and was also commanded by God to prostrate to Adam (pbuh) but he refused. Since God expelled him from the presence of the Angels (pbut) and cursed him, he asked God for respite (time) until the Day of Resurrection. God gave him respite and then he declared his enemity to Adam (pbuh) and said he will mislead his progeny. Thus he became Satan. Satan is the one who caused Adam's (pbuh) downfall. He told Adam (pbuh) and his wife that God only forbade them to eat from the tree lest they become eternal beings or like Angels (pbut). He swore to them that he was their sincere adviser, thus he is the deceiver.

Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! (18:50)

How come God tells the angels to "Bow down to Adam"? Isn't that the same as prostrating. Don't Muslims going prostrate before God? So why do the angels prostrate before Adam?

[Younes]

No I should read from more different scholars. But sometimes fact is fact even if most of the guys you dislike speaking bring up something universally accepted. (So many manuscripts that are not identical to each other at all)

You are right. Bart Ehrman didn't invent the idea that the last ending verses that are now in the Gospel of Mark aren't in the earliest manuscripts, that the famous phrase "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing" is ommitted and that the story of the woman caught in adultery is missing. That's just cold data. If he lied about that, he'd get called out very quickly!

How come God tells the angels to "Bow down to Adam"? Isn't that the same as prostrating. Don't Muslims going prostrate before God? So why do the angels prostrate before Adam?

The actual Arabic word is "prostrate" in all the verses that mentioned the incident. Bowing is a little different but the idea is the same even in the English translation - pay homage to Adam (pbuh). Yes, Muslims prostrate to God. However, God ordered them to prostrate. It doesn't mean they worshipped Adam (pbuh). In the Laws of the previous nations prostrating to somebody was allowed. For example, when the family of Joseph (pbuh) arrive to Egypt, they prostrate to him as a sign of respect. However, now God has forbidden prostrating to anybody other than Himself. Remember that God is the Legislator and He makes the rules. In short, the Angels (pbut) prostrated before Adam (pbuh) because God specifically ordered them to prostrate to him.

[tonnyj]

The actual Arabic word is "prostrate" in all the verses that mentioned the incident. Bowing is a little different but the idea is the same even in the English translation - pay homage to Adam (pbuh). Yes, Muslims prostrate to God. However, God ordered them to prostrate. It doesn't mean they worshipped Adam (pbuh). In the Laws of the previous nations prostrating to somebody was allowed. For example, when the family of Joseph (pbuh) arrive to Egypt, they prostrate to him as a sign of respect. However, now God has forbidden prostrating to anybody other than Himself. Remember that God is the Legislator and He makes the rules. In short, the Angels (pbut) prostrated before Adam (pbuh) because God specifically ordered them to prostrate to him.

Okay so when did he forbid that? Was it after he told the angels to bow down before Adam or after the brothers of Joseph bowed down before him?

[Younes]

Okay so when did he forbid that? Was it after he told the angels to bow down before Adam or after the brothers of Joseph bowed down before him?

When Muhammad (pbuh) came, at the latest. It was definately after Joseph's brothers and his parents prostrated because Joseph (pbuh) was shown a dream that this would and he didn't dissaprove. What is definite is that it was forbidden by Muhammad (pbuh). It could have been forbidden by Moses (pbuh) also but there is no concrete information.

[tonnyj]

so basically people (angels) were only prostrating before humans only by the command of God?

[Younes]

so basically people (angels) were only prostrating before humans only by the command of God?

Yes, that's the entire point. God explicitly told them to do so after had created Adam (pbuh) and the Angels (pbut) obeyed.

[tonnyj]

Maybe it was like making a signature of his work? The earth is like a canvas. Adam is like the paint. and the bowing down of angels is like God's signature? lol i know weird analogy

[tonnyj]

O yea when I say the earth is like a canvas, its like the background. The real subject is the painting on the canvas. Adam. And to finish it off a nice autograph with the angels bowing. (just making my analogy clear)

[tonnyj]

no seriously is this a good analogy? I dont wanna start stating things like that sound like the Trinity, which makes no sense.

[mrhyder]

no seriously is this a good analogy? I dont wanna start stating things like that sound like the Trinity, which makes no sense.

I don't get the analogy, its just as confusing as the trinity..

[Benedict]

Means of expiating sin

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly, praise be to Allaah Who has enabled you to repent and has guided you after you were misguided, Who has lighted the way for you and has made faith dear to you and made it attractive to you. To Him be all praise at all times.

We congratulate you on having been enabled to repent. This is a blessing for which thanks must be given, for Allaah accepts the repentance of the one who repents. Please see Question no 14289.

Secondly, you say, “How would I know whether Allaah has forgiven me or not?”

You should note that whoever repents sincerely, Allaah accepts his repentance and Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. He has promised the one who repents to Him that He will forgive him his sins. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: ‘O ‘Ibaadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily, Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful’”

[al-Zumar 39:53]

When Allaah promises something, He does not break His promise.

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful.

And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds; then verily, he repents towards Allaah with true repentance”

[al-Furqaan 25:70-71]

In this aayah, Allaah tells us that He will replace the bad deeds of the one who repents into good deeds, and this is one of the blessings of repentance.

Thirdly, you say, “How can I get rid of my sin?”

This is an important matter, for these are the means by which sin is expiated. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The punishment for sin is lifted from a person by means of ten things:

1 – Repentance; this is agreed upon among the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

“Say: ‘O ‘Ibaadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily, Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful’”

[al-Zumar 39:53]

“Know they not that Allaah accepts repentance from His slaves and takes the Sadaqaat (alms, charity), and that Allaah Alone is the One Who forgives and accepts repentance, Most Merciful?”

[al-Tawbah 9:104]

“And He it is Who accepts repentance from His slaves, and forgives sins”[al-Shoora 42:25]

2 – Praying for forgiveness. It was narrated in al-Saheehayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If a person commits a sin, then says, ‘O Lord, I have committed a sin so forgive me,’ He says, ‘My slave knows that he has a Lord Who may forgive sins or punish for it; I have forgiven My slave…’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6953; Muslim, 4953)

In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If you did not commit sin, Allaah would do away with you and bring people who would commit sins then ask Him to forgive them, so He would forgive them.” (al-Tawbah, 4936)

3 – Doing good deeds which wipe out sins. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And perform As‑Salaah (Iqaamat‑as‑ Salaah), at the two ends of the day and in some hours of the night [i.e. the five compulsory Salaah (prayers)]. Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds (i.e. small sins)”[Hood 11:114]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The five daily prayers and Jumu’ah (Friday prayers) and Ramadaan take away the bad deeds between one and the next, if you avoid major sins.” (Narrated by Muslim, 344).

And he said: “Whoever fasts Ramadaan out of faith and the hope of reward, his previous sins will be forgiven.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 37; Muslim, 1268).

And he said: “Whoever spends the night of Laylat al-Qadr in prayer out of faith and the hope of reward, his previous sins will be forgiven.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1768).

And he said: “Whoever performs Pilgrimage to this House, and does not behave in an obscene or immoral manner, he will go back free of sin like the day his mother gave birth to him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1690).

And he said: “The expiation for the fitnah caused to a man by his family, wealth and children is prayer, fasting, enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 494, Muslim, 5150).

And he said: “Whoever frees a believing slave, for each of (the slave’s) limbs Allaah will free one of his limbs from the Fire…” (Narrated by Muslim, 2777).

These and similar ahaadeeth are narrated in the books of Saheeh. And he said: “Charity extinguishes sin as water extinguishes fire, but hasad (malicious envy) consumes good deeds as fire consumes wood.”

4 – The du’aa’ of the believers for the believer, such as when they pray the funeral prayer for him. It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah and Anas ibn Maalik that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no Muslim who dies, and a group of Muslims numbering one hundred pray for him, all of them interceding for him, but their intercession for him will be accepted.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1576).

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘There is no Muslim man who dies, and forty men pray the funeral prayer for him, not associating anything with Allaah, but Allaah will accept their intercession for him.’” (Narrated by Muslim, 1577). This refers to praying for him after he has died.

5 – Good deeds which can be done for the deceased, such as giving in charity (on his behalf), etc. This will benefit him, according to the clear, saheeh texts of the Sunnah and the consensus of the Imams. The same applies to freeing slaves and Hajj (on his behalf), indeed it was proven in al-Saheehayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever dies owing any (obligatory) fasts, his heir should fast them on his behalf.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5210; Muslim, 4670).

6 – The intercession of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and others on the Day of Resurrection for those who have committed sins. This is narrated in the mutawaatir ahaadeeth about intercession, such as the hadeeth in which he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “My intercession will be for those among my ummah who have committed major sins.” (Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3965). And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I was given the choice between admitting half of my ummah to Paradise and intercession, and I chose intercession.” (See Saheeh al-Jaami’, 3335).

7 – Calamities by means of which Allaah expiates sins in this world. It was narrated in al-Saheehayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No tiredness, exhaustion, worry, grief, distress or harm befalls a believer in this world, not even a thorn that pricks him, but Allaah expiates some of his sins thereby.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5210; Muslim, 4670).

8 – The torment, squeezing and terror that happens in the grave. These are also things by means of which sins are expiated.

9 – The horrors, distress and hardship of the Day of Resurrection.

10 – The mercy and forgiveness of Allaah, with no cause on the part of His slaves.

See: Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn Taymiyah, vol. 7, p. 487-501.

Fourthly, you ask, “Do you think that Allaah will forgive me?”

Yes, He will, if you have repented sincerely, for Allaah has promised to accept repentance, the evidence for which we have mentioned above. Do not despair of Allaah’s mercy. Remember the story of the man who killed one hundred people, then he repented and Allaah accepted his repentance. This is the story as narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, in Kitaab al-Tawbah (2766): “It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Among the people who came before you there was a man who killed ninety-nine people, then he asked about the most knowledgeable person in the land. He was told about a monk, so he went to him and said, ‘I have killed ninety-nine people, can I repent?’ The monk said, ‘No.’ So he killed him, thus making the number one hundred. Then he asked about the most knowledgeable person in the land, and he was told about a scholar, so he (went to him and) said: ‘I have killed one hundred people. Can I repent?’ He said, ‘Yes, who could stop you from repenting? Go to such and such a land, where there are people who worship Allaah. Worship Allaah with them and do not go back to your own land, for it is a bad land.’ So he set out, and when he was halfway there, death came upon him. The angels of mercy and the angels of punishment argued over him. The angels of mercy said, ‘He was coming repentant, turning with his heart towards Allaah.’ The angels of punishment said, ‘He never did anything good.’ Then an angel came to them in human form and they accepted him as a mediator. He said, ‘Measure the distance between the two lands, and whichever he is closer to is where be belongs.’ So they measured the distance and found that he was closer to the land to which he was headed, so the angels of mercy took him.”

We learn several things from this hadeeth, including the following:

1 – That Allaah forgives all the sins of one who repents, no matter how great they are. This is indicated by the aayah in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: ‘O ‘Ibaadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily, Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful’”[al-Zumar 39:53]

2 – The one who repents has to keep away from bad friends who were committing the sin with him. He should keep company with righteous friends who will help him to do good and show him how to do it. We ask Allaah to help us and you and to give us all strength. And Allaah knows best.

3 – The Muslim must live his life in a state between fear and hope, fearing his sins and not feeling safe from the Plan of Allaah, and not being certain that he will enter Paradise. For the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them), even though they were so righteous and pious, were not like this, rather they feared their Lord and worshipped Him with fear and hope. So the Muslim must obey Allaah and repent and hope for the mercy of Allaah, knowing that Allaah forgives and accepts the repentance of the one who repents to Him, so he hopes that Allaah will forgive him. He knows that Allaah accepts and loves the righteous deeds of His slave, so he strives to do righteous deeds hoping that they will be accepted. If he lives in this state, fearing his sins and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, he will strive to worship Him and keep away from sin, asking Allaah to reward him for his righteous deeds until he meets Him when He is pleased with him, and he seeks refuge with Allaah from his heart being turned away or his situation changing, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to pray, “O Controller of the hearts, make my heart steadfast in Your religion.”

IslamQA

As this topic has cooled down a bit I thought I would come back to this like I said I would.

Firstly, praise be to Allaah Who has enabled you to repent and has guided you after you were misguided, Who has lighted the way for you and has made faith dear to you and made it attractive to you. To Him be all praise at all times.

All I can say to this is Amen!

We congratulate you on having been enabled to repent. This is a blessing for which thanks must be given, for Allaah accepts the repentance of the one who repents. Please see Question no 14289.

Where do I find this question?

Secondly, you say, “How would I know whether Allaah has forgiven me or not?”

You should note that whoever repents sincerely, Allaah accepts his repentance and Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. He has promised the one who repents to Him that He will forgive him his sins. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

So direct confession (addmitants) to God correct.? No intermediat needed correct like a priest in a confessional.


In the second part.
Next question after reading this is. Are good deeds required in Islam? In Christianity we teach good deeds are the fruit of salvation and God can make good come out of what seems evil. Is this similar to Islam?

The third part I ask this.
Repentance to God I can agree to that. Is the verse above saying charity and alms can forgive sins or is it a aid in forgiving sins?


on praying for forgivness
I can understand praying for forgivness and God granting it. In the second part is it being said that God would throw us to the side if we were sinless? I guess I am not understanding al-Tawbah, 4936.? Can I get a further clairification please.


On doing good deeds I ask this.
How do good deeds, fasting, and prayer wipe out sin? I think I understand how evil deeds or thoughts have the opposit effect and they sepparate us from God's will.

On dua'as for believers I ask this
So how does this apply to remission of sins? I understand I think praying for those who have passed on. Am I missing the picture here?

on good deeds for the dead I ask this
How does one do good deeds for the dead? How does this aid them. I find this interesting but very confusing.

on #6 I am confused
What is being said here?


On #7 I ask this below
So trials and tribulations can be given for forgivness of sins?


on #8-10 is there a online reference?
Is there a online reference to this works you refer to?


If I have misunderstood something please correct me. I wish to have a correct understanding of all that was given here. I am sorry for any confusion In what I am asking. I had some quotation issues due to the length of the post. So if you all could help me here with what I was asking or in clearing the confusion it would be greatly apreciated. Thank you.

God's peace and blessings to all.

workingman

[Abu Firdaws]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

I apologise for not responding earlier, I didn't think you would actually get back to me.

I would strongly advise you to read the Qur'an. I would link you to it but unfortunately I can't as a new member. Do a Google search for "Read Quran online English", shouldn't be difficult to find.

Secondly, for questions related to Islam I would advise you to visit IslamQA; type "IslamQA" into Google and it should be the first thing that comes up. Use the search function on the website, you will find the answers to your questions, insha'Allah (God willing).

[Benedict]

[quote]name='Abu Firdaws' date='Jun 14 2011, 04:12 AM' post='1239682']
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,[/quote]

Peace unto you also and may the mercy and blessings of God be with you.

[quote]I apologise for not responding earlier, I didn't think you would actually get back to me.[/quote]

Well I don't blame you for thinking that. I did leave you hanging for a while. I try and do what I say I will. God willing.

[quote]I would strongly advise you to read the Qur'an. I would link you to it but unfortunately I can't as a new member. Do a Google search for "Read Quran online English", shouldn't be difficult to find.[/quote]

I do own one it was given to me by a Muslim friend from work. I find the way it is written to be a little choppy. I'll do a google any way maybe it will have a commentary with it.

[quote]Secondly, for questions related to Islam I would advise you to visit IslamQA; type "IslamQA" into Google and it should be the first thing that comes up. Use the search function on the website, you will find the answers to your questions, insha'Allah (God willing).[/quote]

Thankyou again. I just don't like doing that way. I guess I'm a person for interaction. Though I thank you for the advise.

[Abu Firdaws]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

It has a lot of information on there, and the answers you will find on there are more detailed than answers you will get from people on this forum. Consider checking it out insha'Allah.

Which translation of the Qur'an are you reading by the way?

[Orthodox]

Peace unto you also and may the mercy and blessings of God be with you.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidence. Before I continue let me tell you that we are glad you are debating this with us.

I find the way it is written to be a little choppy. I'll do a google any way maybe it will have a commentary with it.

The Qur'an is a unique word of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and not of a bunch of authors without identification or a chain going back to, it being written by anyone. At least we know we ar ereading th esame Qur'an of 1400 or more years ago. Can you prove your bibles are the same as they used to be? Of course not. Debate ended. I am not trying to get back at you because that is done with evidence, so stop making comments/statments without any backup. Notice that you are only reading its copy. All its translations ar enothing like the Qur'an because no other book can be like the Qur'an. Compete with that. Compare it to all your Bibles.

I'll do a google any way maybe it will have a commentary with it.

What are you trying to say with this statment? Why aren't you being clear? Is it to upset us? That's not being just, so be clear because that way you know we will be able to answer you with something your people can never compete. The Qur'an is clear and has been explained by itself, and the Qur'an has been put into practice by Prophet Muhammad

I guess I'm a person for interaction

Stop making this discussion about yourself, discuss."Yay, love this god Jesus Christ" "Love him!" How can anyone listen to this, when it is not God, the supreme?
Figure something, we cannot love others more than Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, do not call us to it, it hurts the ears.

About crucifixion, from what I know the most important part of that belief is that he came back to life, and even the Biblical evidence of it is very unclear, the Christians are full of controversy over it. We believe God saved him form the Jews. I think I've heard the Jews wanted to see if he was Messiah, so they wanted to see if he would survive the death in order to see if he truly is Messih. According to you guys, but I am sure other Christians believe different, he died then came back to life. Some women claimed they have seen him come out of the grave and that is your evidence that he came back to life.

Other group of Catholics I've met who are Spanish origin claim that he is still alive in a manner unknown to us. We believe that same.

Edited by Orthodox, 17 June 2011 - 02:45 PM.

[jamesg]

[quote name='Orthodox' date='Jun 17 2011, 06:32 AM' post='1239883']
According to you guys, but I am sure other Christians believe different, he died then came back to life. Some women claimed they have seen him come out of the grave and that is your evidence that he came back to life.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
It was the Father’s purpose to manifest Himself, all that He is — not in holiness and righteousness and truth only; but in His infinite Love, Grace, Mercy, Tenderness, Gentleness, and Patience. He therefore sent His Son, and lo! God was manifest in the flesh! The Lord Jesus declared the Father — all that He was, which had never been done before, to any of His creatures. But, after revealing the Father’s love, mercy, and gracious tenderness towards sinners, the Son of God goes to the Cross. And there is revealed the eternal unchangeable holiness of the Father in hatred of sin, together with that love capable of giving the Son of His delight to bear sin for a world that rejected, despised His Son!
Jesus Christ was the eternal Son of God, pre-existent and only-begotten (John 1:1,2; 8:58); He entered the world through a supernatural event, the Virgin Birth (Matt. 1:20), and dwelt as God among men. He revealed, not only God's holiness and love (John 14:9) and the possibilities of a life wholly yielded to God (John 4:34), but He died as God, in order to make it possible for men to be made over into His own glorious image (II Cor. 5:17,21).
Jesus physically died, but also was also physically raised from the dead.
Luke 24:5-6: “And as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them ‘Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen.’”
1 Corinthians 15:3-8: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”
John 20:24-29 shows us that Thomas actually saw and touched the wounds of Christ. This shows that Jesus physically rose in the same body that He died in.
Jesus broke bread and gave it to two disciples on the Road to Emmaus in Luke 24:13-35. The disciples saw and heard Jesus on this encounter, and it is very possible that he ate with them on this encounter.
Luke 24:36-49 shows us that Jesus actually ate a piece of fish. Verses 42-43 states: “And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.” How can someone who is not in a physical body eat?
John 21:12-14 states: “Jesus said to them, ‘Come and have breakfast.’ None of the disciples ventured to question Him, ‘Who are You?’ knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the break, and gave them, and the fish likewise. This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead.” It is implied here that Jesus ate with them. At the very least they saw and conversed with Jesus.

[Benedict]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

It has a lot of information on there, and the answers you will find on there are more detailed than answers you will get from people on this forum. Consider checking it out insha'Allah.

Which translation of the Qur'an are you reading by the way?

I will check it out. Takes me along time though with three kids. What blessings from God they are.

The translation of the Qur'an I was give was done by Professor Dr. Syed Vickar Ahamed out of the Book of Signs Foundation. The web address is as below though I have not visited it.

Quran[at]bookofsigns(contact admin if its a beneficial link) or (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbookofsigns(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbookofsigns(contact admin if its a beneficial link)[/url]

That is what is on the inside cover. I am assuming it is a accurate translation as it was given to me by a Muslim coworker.

[Benedict]

[quote]name='Orthodox' date='Jun 17 2011, 09:32 AM' post='1239883']
Peace be upon those who follow the guidence. Before I continue let me tell you that we are glad you are debating this with us.[/quote]

First off I thank you. This board for the most part has been very polite. I do aprreciate that.


[quote]The Qur'an is a unique word of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and not of a bunch of authors without identification or a chain going back to, it being written by anyone. At least we know we ar ereading th esame Qur'an of 1400 or more years ago. Can you prove your bibles are the same as they used to be? Of course not. Debate ended. I am not trying to get back at you because that is done with evidence, so stop making comments/statments without any backup. Notice that you are only reading its copy. All its translations ar enothing like the Qur'an because no other book can be like the Qur'an. Compete with that. Compare it to all your Bibles.[/quote]

I do understand the claimings of the Qur'an. I also understand what I am reading is a Aribic to English translation. If there was not a english translation I would have a hard time as I at this time do not read, write, or speak Aribic. The same as I read a English translation of the Bible because I do not read, write, or speak greek, lattin, Arimaic, hebrew ect..... I simply made a statment of how I thought it read personaly. It was not a attack. I didn't realize I needed proof for a personal feeling on a lay out or how it was written in layout.

The Biblical cannon as we know it today was established latter at the councle of Nicea. The early Christians did not have a complete Bible as it was passed orally and by individual letters from the apostles. The Gospel writers are clearly labeled. Also most of the Epistle authors are know. So yes I do know where my Bible comes from. I'm not here for a competition. I am trying to understand what the topic title states. It is really that simple.

[quote]What are you trying to say with this statment? Why aren't you being clear? Is it to upset us? That's not being just, so be clear because that way you know we will be able to answer you with something your people can never compete. The Qur'an is clear and has been explained by itself, and the Qur'an has been put into practice by Prophet Muhammad [/quote]

The statement is quite clear. Do you understand what a commentary is? Here is the definition from the Webster online Dictionary. an explanatory treatise or a systematic series of explanations or interpretations (as of a writing). I do none of this to upset anyone. I respect what you believe enough to try and understand it I expect the same in return.

[quote]Stop making this discussion about yourself, discuss."Yay, love this god Jesus Christ" "Love him!" How can anyone listen to this, when it is not God, the supreme?[/quote]

I don't feel I have done what you clame. How have I done this as it was not my intent. Well geesh maybe I should write the pope and have the Catechism of the Catholic Church consider for a revision on paragraph #841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

Do you or can you not respect this paragraph?

[quote]Figure something, we cannot love others more than Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, do not call us to it, it hurts the ears.[/quote]

Nor do I love something more than God. I am not asking you so either.

[quote]About crucifixion, from what I know the most important part of that belief is that he came back to life, and even the Biblical evidence of it is very unclear, the Christians are full of controversy over it. We believe God saved him form the Jews. I think I've heard the Jews wanted to see if he was Messiah, so they wanted to see if he would survive the death in order to see if he truly is Messih. According to you guys, but I am sure other Christians believe different, he died then came back to life. Some women claimed they have seen him come out of the grave and that is your evidence that he came back to life.[/quote]

Yes he decended to the dead and rose again. Very important when speeking of the crucifixion. Otherwise we would just have a dead man. What is clear to you in the Biblical evidance? Well if you wish to call them Christians if they deny the crucifixion. I can not. But that is just me. He also just for a fyi appeared to his apostels. Also a angel of God is who told these women what happened.

[quote]Other group of Catholics I've met who are Spanish origin claim that he is still alive in a manner unknown to us. We believe that same.[/quote]

The Christ is still alive. He assended into heaven. It is recorded in the Gospels.

[stillsmallvoice]

Question for Workingman:

You commented in an earlier post in this thread, regarding being Christian, that "Baptism is needed along with other sacraments".
My question to you is, "What baptism or other sacraments (outside of a baptism of belief) did a thief on a cross (being crucified along with Jesus) undergo?" and yet Jesus, Himself, said "this day you will be with Me in paradise".

I want to present a simple argument for all on this thread who are willing to consider it. I'm asking all of you to take a moment to step outside of your scriptures (be they Jewish, Christian, or Muslim) and search within your own souls and ask yourselves two questions:

If we are in agreement that our Creator (God, Allah) is just, "Can He simply forgive our unworthiness without denying His just character?"

Can we be made worthy of an infinite God (Allah) through any actions of our own? or will it require that He provide a means of reconciliation?