78 replies to this topic

[tom]

now now dont be like that. We gotta be open minded right??? I was christian before once upon a time u know. Im sure we can come to terms lol

indeed we gotta be openminded and come to terms if we wanna survive in a world of multi religions, multi races etc. we uphold the 10 commandments. yet i sense a widening gap between muslims and christians. perhaps the former give priority to their religion while the latter dont. more often we're born christians not devout. having gay priests is awfully demoralising. god destroyed sodom and gomorrah coz of their homosex activities.

[tom]

mr AMEER7

come in quick otherwise me gonna derail this thread.

[tonnyj]

Yes. You are right on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is sad to see things starting to turn upside down. Now you got gay rights being recognized as second to nature. Music industry is getting away feeding kids and people crap that deals with rebellion being number 1 priority - and its getting worse. I open up a local newspaper magazine and to my surprise, it has pictures of gay men kissing and men in underwear all buff to show off their muscles - getting the hype up that homosexuality is okay on a everyday basis to look at and acknowledge. I mean what do you do with so much crap coming out left and right and it never seems to stop? Yeah I think its sad. But there are even more problems that are global. I guess just stay educated and have a clear path of where your going. No one should live blindly with the veil covered over their heads. But still I wonder, what would it be like if things were supposed to be perfect. Everyone being truthful, no misgiving, no grief, no shame, everyone greeting each other on a daily basis like its nothing. We all live for something similar to this, but yet, its far beyond our comprehension of what perfect life is, so I guess we'll never really know until the end. But still, alot of stuff out there has to deal with religion. It seems to be the at the heart of everything, right? So we got 1 life. Gotta do it right somehow. Dont worry, I'm still going to read your posts and reply of what I think of it. But in the meantime, since its late, I'll check it out thoroughly tomorrow.

[tonnyj]

it looks like christians of 2.1 billion regardless they're unitarians, binitarians or trinitarians gonna go to hell bearing in mind majority of us are exposed to Islam via borderless world. we believe in all prophets except muhammad. the difference is binitarians/trinitarians believe jesus is god while unitarians dont. if the criteria is solely believe in muhammad as one of the prophets, then it looks like majority non muslim world population of 6.93 billion inview of this borderless world gonna rot in hell. that's gonna include the pope, lady gaga, tiger woods, brad pitt lol this is good, me tom etc. am i right?

Lol. Lady Gaga. Honestly I think that chick is Shaytan. The music industry is filled with them. Movie stars too - man it seems like its everywhere. (Dont worry, I'm not one of those paranoid freaks, or am I?) I dont know about the other people who gonna rot in hell, but I must say that God has a plan. Im pretty sure he's got that part figured out. I mean - the Islamic way of looking at non-believers able to enter paradise - God asks the person to enter Hellfire right? To see if the person would have obeyed God if it is true he/she believes in God at that moment. I mean this idea makes sense. Much more so than the trinity. So I dont have too much doubt about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists - I'm sure they will all have a chance at salvation if they were confronted by God on their day of resurrection. Still doesn't mean we all get a free pass like Trinitarians, to commit all the sin, because hey - we are all saved right?

Anyways Tom-
I tried to read through the links you have sent me. I can see you are not a trinitarian. Im guessing you are a Morman?

Edited by tonnyj, 08 July 2011 - 05:03 AM.

[tom]

Yes. You are right on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is sad to see things starting to turn upside down. Now you got gay rights being recognized as second to nature. Music industry is getting away feeding kids and people crap that deals with rebellion being number 1 priority - and its getting worse. I open up a local newspaper magazine and to my surprise, it has pictures of gay men kissing and men in underwear all buff to show off their muscles - getting the hype up that homosexuality is okay on a everyday basis to look at and acknowledge. I mean what do you do with so much crap coming out left and right and it never seems to stop? Yeah I think its sad. But there are even more problems that are global. I guess just stay educated and have a clear path of where your going. No one should live blindly with the veil covered over their heads. But still I wonder, what would it be like if things were supposed to be perfect. Everyone being truthful, no misgiving, no grief, no shame, everyone greeting each other on a daily basis like its nothing. We all live for something similar to this, but yet, its far beyond our comprehension of what perfect life is, so I guess we'll never really know until the end. But still, alot of stuff out there has to deal with religion. It seems to be the at the heart of everything, right? So we got 1 life. Gotta do it right somehow. Dont worry, I'm still going to read your posts and reply of what I think of it. But in the meantime, since its late, I'll check it out thoroughly tomorrow.

you're being philosophical . . . . . and you're dead right . . . . one life and gotta do it right . . . . right for muslims may not be right for christians and vice versa.

[tom]

Lol. Lady Gaga. Honestly I think that chick is Shaytan. The music industry is filled with them. Movie stars too - man it seems like its everywhere. (Dont worry, I'm not one of those paranoid freaks, or am I?)

see? not that easy to drop things pronto for the sake of religion. thats why i'm in awe over those who made the move. and nope you're no freak . . . . . or prig. hehe

I dont know about the other people who gonna rot in hell, but I must say that God has a plan. Im pretty sure he's got that part figured out. I mean - the Islamic way of looking at non-believers able to enter paradise - God asks the person to enter Hellfire right? To see if the person would have obeyed God if it is true he/she believes in God at that moment. I mean this idea makes sense. Much more so than the trinity. So I dont have too much doubt about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists - I'm sure they will all have a chance at salvation if they were confronted by God on their day of resurrection. Still doesn't mean we all get a free pass like Trinitarians, to commit all the sin, because hey - we are all saved right?

thats the best statement i've read so far from a muslim and a new muslim at that. you've made my day.

to me trinity is one confused state of mind.

Anyways Tom-
I tried to read through the links you have sent me. I can see you are not a trinitarian. Im guessing you are a Morman?

i'm unitarian.

[tonnyj]

see? not that easy to drop things pronto for the sake of religion. thats why i'm in awe over those who made the move. and nope you're no freak . . . . . or prig. hehe

By 'dropping things pronto for religion' - do you mean condemning things such as the music industry for the sake of religion?

thats the best statement i've read so far from a muslim and a new muslim at that. you've made my day.

Well I hope that's as close to the truth as possible.

to me trinity is one confused state of mind.
i'm unitarian.

I talked to a pastor about the trinity recently. I never knew this theory was valid for her (she was presbyter) - but I asked for the trinity - how is it possible God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy spirit do not mix and yet do net separate. To her somehow it all makes sense.

So Mormans are not unitarians? Didn't Mormonism come from Arianism? Didn't Arianism believe in one God? So if you are unitarian, what kind of denomination do you belong to? Is it just plainly called unitarian? or something else?

Edited by tonnyj, 08 July 2011 - 04:31 PM.

[The Shrew]

tonnyj
So I dont have too much doubt about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists - I'm sure they will all have a chance at salvation if they were confronted by God on their day of resurrection. Still doesn't mean we all get a free pass like Trinitarians, to commit all the sin, because hey - we are all saved right?

I've been lurking on this one. But this statment here just strikes a cord with me. Now before I open my mouth to far and insert a foot I am not looking to bicker. But I do not subscribe to a "free pass" to commit all the sin I want. I am a Trinitarian. A Roman Catholic. I can not think of a Trinitarian who does subscribe to this though. I do not subscribe to once saved always saved though either. I would put it like this though. I will stand my judgment in front of God and I could end up in heaven, hell, or purgatory (a place of perging or cleaning). As nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

So any Christian that tells you they can commit all the sin they want because they are saved is lost not following God's word. If one is saved they will bear good fruit.

Sorry for the cherry picking of a section your comment tonnyj. I just had to say something about it I guess.

God's peace and blessings

workingman

[Peace_From_Love]

Jesus claimed to be one of the three persons of God. God is one. God creates our reality in the form of three natures (persons). There is a disagreement on this among Christian religions. Some believe that God comes in three modes. This is modalism. Some believe that He is three persons of the Trinity. Others believe that Jesus was a man only and God is one. This is Unitarian belief.

God is more than just one aspect of creation. Anyone can see that a typical person is who they are at work, who they are at home and who they are in private. This does not change the fact that it is still one person.

What follows is my own view from that of science and physics. Although science is a poor description of God, science can be used to see into God's creation dimly.

God is Light or the Father (1st person of the trinity). Jesus is Word (Logos) form John 1. "In the Beginning was the Word" The Holy Spirit is the third person. I believe this to be God's Holy Consciousness.

If we look at this from the standpoint of physics and human nature, we see the three persons of God in each man. Light is both a particle and a wave in physics. If God created the universe, the we must assume that what we see a the properties of physics is a description of how He accomplished this task. Light is both a particle and a wave. John 1 calls Christ, the 2nd person of the trinity, the Word. A word is a wave. Logos goes further to describe what this Word represents to creation. It is the wave, or word, that God used to speak creation into existence. This word of God that created the universe is far more complicated than any of us could imagine. Jesus is this Word according to the Christian trinity.

I am suggesting here that light and wave can be seen as a reflection of God creating matter. What is matter missing to be alive? Consciousness.

If we add consciousness to matter it becomes living. Man is made up of both matter and consciousness. This is Light, both particle and wave. God is also consciousness (the Great I AM). As you can see so far, one God speaks His Living Word into existence to create the universe for man. He then gives man consciousness.

Man can be seen as a person. To God, He sees man as particle, wave and His Holy Consciousness, as well as a person. To man, we see God in the material world as all three as well. We see Him from the perspective of our Particle, Wave and Consciousness. These are our simple definitions to something that is cosmically complicated.

Jesus is seen as the incarnation of God in all three persons in the material world. The Holy Spirit of man is what He comes to bring to man as His own sacrifice for us; His payment for our sins. This is grace. We did not deserve this. He did it for love. This is the love that Christ speaks about. He loved us first and died a mans death to set us free. This is the Christian perspective.

The bits about physics are my perspective. Take it for what it is worth. Jesus is your messenger as well. The message is the same. Love God and love your fellow man. You cannot love one without the other.

Hate never dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate.

[tom]

By 'dropping things pronto for religion' - do you mean condemning things such as the music industry for the sake of religion?

'condemning' is a harsh word. perhaps 'ignore' is more palatable, it sounds gracious.

I talked to a pastor about the trinity recently. I never knew this theory was valid for her (she was presbyter) - but I asked for the trinity - how is it possible God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy spirit do not mix and yet do net separate. To her somehow it all makes sense.

depends on one's belief. for trinitarians, trinity makes sense but not for non trinitarians.

So Mormans are not unitarians? Didn't Mormonism come from Arianism? Didn't Arianism believe in one God? So if you are unitarian, what kind of denomination do you belong to? Is it just plainly called unitarian? or something else?

mormons are unitarians in some aspects while arianism does believe in ONE god in certain aspect. suffice it to say i'm unitarian, a non performing one. that being said i'm no atheist either.

[tom]

I've been lurking on this one. But this statment here just strikes a cord with me. Now before I open my mouth to far and insert a foot I am not looking to bicker. But I do not subscribe to a "free pass" to commit all the sin I want. I am a Trinitarian. A Roman Catholic. I can not think of a Trinitarian who does subscribe to this though. I do not subscribe to once saved always saved though either. I would put it like this though. I will stand my judgment in front of God and I could end up in heaven, hell, or purgatory (a place of perging or cleaning). As nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

indeed no christian be he trinitarian, binitarian or unitarian wanna believe hitler gonna go to heaven after causing 2ww and murdering millions including 6 millions jews and causing holocaust. right?

[tom]

Jesus claimed to be one of the three persons of God. God is one. God creates our reality in the form of three natures (persons). There is a disagreement on this among Christian religions. Some believe that God comes in three modes. This is modalism. Some believe that He is three persons of the Trinity. Others believe that Jesus was a man only and God is one. This is Unitarian belief.

where in the bible that jesus claimed to be god?

and where in the bible that god creates our reality in form of 3 persons?

what irksome is trinitarians claim jesus, father and holyspirit have EXACTLY same nature when they dont.

Edited by tom, 16 July 2011 - 05:59 AM.

[The Shrew]

indeed no christian be he trinitarian, binitarian or unitarian wanna believe hitler gonna go to heaven after causing 2ww and murdering millions including 6 millions jews and causing holocaust. right?

That is not for me to say. That is God's job. I can not know the state of another man's soul.

[The Shrew]

Tom

where in the bible that jesus claimed to be god?

Well lets start with Matt. 4:7 and Luke 4:12 Matt 21:3, Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44, John 6:38, John 8:12, John 5:18. These are but a few verses where Jesus Christ calls himself God.

[tonnyj]

If we add consciousness to matter it becomes living. Man is made up of both matter and consciousness. This is Light, both particle and wave. God is also consciousness (the Great I AM). As you can see so far, one God speaks His Living Word into existence to create the universe for man. He then gives man consciousness.

Man can be seen as a person. To God, He sees man as particle, wave and His Holy Consciousness, as well as a person. To man, we see God in the material world as all three as well. We see Him from the perspective of our Particle, Wave and Consciousness. These are our simple definitions to something that is cosmically complicated.

Ok you lost me at the beginning when your talking about your scientific view of the trinity. That whole thing you talked about is just as confusing as the trinity itself. But I gotta ask, why do you use scientific analogy to describe the trinity? Doesn't Genesis have serious problems that are in conflict with science today? Yet you use science to prove your points? Why use something that is against you as something for you?

Edited by tonnyj, 16 July 2011 - 11:03 PM.

[tonnyj]

Well lets start with Matt. 4:7 and Luke 4:12 Matt 21:3, Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44, John 6:38, John 8:12, John 5:18. These are but a few verses where Jesus Christ calls himself God.

"Where does it say as a quote from Jesus - that he said he was equal with God?

I have quotes that nullify Jesus saying he is God.

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I...
John 5:30: I can of myself do nothing...
Mark 13:32: 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[e]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

Does this sound like Jesus saying he is equal to God the Father? How do your verses override these verses I have given as proof that Jesus is equal with God? It's straight forward. These verses I give nullify Jesus was God - they tell the reader he was a subordinate. Like I said, where does Jesus say he was God? Where does he say worship me explicitly? (I know - look to the parables right? Ill get on to that)"

You should read the earlier posts.

[The Shrew]

"Where does it say as a quote from Jesus - that he said he was equal with God?

I have quotes that nullify Jesus saying he is God.

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I...
John 5:30: I can of myself do nothing...
Mark 13:32: 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[e]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

Does this sound like Jesus saying he is equal to God the Father? How do your verses override these verses I have given as proof that Jesus is equal with God? It's straight forward. These verses I give nullify Jesus was God - they tell the reader he was a subordinate. Like I said, where does Jesus say he was God? Where does he say worship me explicitly? (I know - look to the parables right? Ill get on to that)"

You should read the earlier posts.

You need to properly understand how the trinity is viewed. Please read the link below as it goes into far greater depth than I can on this forum. Then get back to me. Yes the artical is lengthy but a good read.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yet######/cathen/15047a.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yet######/cathen/15047a.htm[/url]

[tonnyj]

Before I even attempt to read this I just want to say - understanding the concept of God shouldn't have to be explained through a huge article. I can understand that God is God making sense naturally, but a huge article of complex ideas to explain him? Yeah sure, maybe God is so complex, the image of him is beyond our comprehension. So we will never know who he truly is or what he looks like until we die. Then maybe on that day our minds will be boggled. So until that time we should be able to explain him as easily and clearly as possible. So a simplified version of God in Islam is Allah. Simple, the one and true God. The simple version of God in trinatarians is God 3 persons in 1, 1 God with 3 persons. Something that does not mix yet it does not separate. Since this makes no sense we have to read a huge article to understand something that is supposed to be simplified?

[Ameer7]

No matter how many times I post this, people just don't get it.
But, since it's a bad habit of mine, here it comes again ...

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts (higher) than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tonnyj,
Did you find a lot of answers (in the other thread) to the questions you asked me?
If not, there still there a-waitin' for you. They haven't run away anywhere.

Edited by Ameer7, 17 July 2011 - 07:21 PM.

[The Shrew]

Before I even attempt to read this I just want to say - understanding the concept of God shouldn't have to be explained through a huge article. I can understand that God is God making sense naturally, but a huge article of complex ideas to explain him? Yeah sure, maybe God is so complex, the image of him is beyond our comprehension. So we will never know who he truly is or what he looks like until we die. Then maybe on that day our minds will be boggled. So until that time we should be able to explain him as easily and clearly as possible. So a simplified version of God in Islam is Allah. Simple, the one and true God. The simple version of God in trinatarians is God 3 persons in 1, 1 God with 3 persons. Something that does not mix yet it does not separate. Since this makes no sense we have to read a huge article to understand something that is supposed to be simplified?

It does not have to be complex. On that note you seem to need a deeper explanation than what I am willing to write. This is why it is called faith.