120 replies to this topic

[Ron Shirt]

I am visiting Sicily at the moment , in Italy and while visiting a church in Palermo (the capital), discovered that ther was much co-operation some thousands of years ago between the Normans, the Arabs, and the Romans. The church in question was originally a Masjid and yet was built with the help of the Normans (a great story of tolerance and multi-culturism of the times). Now the church is a Roman Catholic one. But this remaining at the entrance is a carved in stone inscription from the Quran which states: 'GOD IS EVERYWHERE, HE IS EVEN IN THE TREE IN THE GARDEN OF MY ENEMY' I do not know the exact verse from the Quran which this is from - perhaps someone can tell me?

Another interesting thing (I was told), is that someone from the Roman Catholic church eventually asked how it could be that a Roman Catholic Church could have a passage from the Quran at its entrance! So this someone was told that the passage said 'God is everywhere', so after some thought it was decided that as it said that: GOD IS EVERYWHERE, that the inscription should remain where it was!

What I would like to know is : which Koranic verse this is, and what is the exact translation?
Also, if true why does this contradict with what someone told me on this for a little while ago: Which was that God is completely seperate from His creation?

Best regards,

Ron

[Redeem]

Either the person was being dishonest or they themselves were uninformed. There is no such verse about Allah being in a tree. I even googled it to find the source and there is no trace of it. Allah is above His creation. What is everywhere is the knowledge of Allah.

Salam.

[ala'adin]

Yes it is just as Sister Redeem said, there is no such verse like that in the Quran.

Salaam,
Ala'adin

[writewhite]

how about that verse which means to communicate that Allah is the third of any 2 and fourth of any 3(i am not sure of the exact words but aware of such reference ) asking for explanation {the fact as you said 'Allah's knowledge is everywhere' is very perfect to my senses ,but how do the verses i asked about, mean} salaam

[Ron Shirt]

Yes it is just as Sister Redeem said, there is no such verse like that in the Quran.

Salaam,
Ala'adin

OK, I'll find out more, but I have seen the Arabic writing on the church in Palermo for myself.

Ron

[Younes]

Hello,

There is no such verse in the Qur'an.

The following verses are in the Qur'an:

Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Countenance. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing. (2:115)

All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifieth Allah; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.

His is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth; He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He is Able to do all things.

He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things.

He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do. (57:1-4)


Hast thou not seen that Allah knoweth all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth? There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth, nor of less than that or more but He is with them wheresoever they may be; and afterward, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of what they did. Lo! Allah is Knower of all things. (58:7)

What all of these verses mean is that God is Omnipresent. It doesn't mean that God is contained in the creation or that the creation is contained in God. The Creator and the creation are seperate. The Creater is Al-Wahid (the One) and al-Ahad (Alone).

[writewhite]

jazak-Allah brother ibn abdul a'ziz
i have yearned for this aayaa/sign
"no secret conference of 3 and Subhanohu is the fourth----"
is what i wished explained
if moderators feel this discussion ought to be elsewhere then do shift please
Allah's Purity of being needy of being there to be present is understood
Subhanohu v ta'la
subhan Allah
how do i explain to myself the aayaa quoted by ibn abdul aziz and i referred to above?
My profession needs telling my visitor that there are three of us
the visitor
myself
and Subhanohu
and all agree
SubhanAllah
(only one said no there is no third but when reminded said Allah is omnipresent)
so help me please
to know what i am saying to my visitors.
alhamdulillah
salaam

Edited by writewhite, 30 June 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[Ron Shirt]

This is all very telling.
I think I will have to contact the authorities in Palermo. I don't yet know what I may have stumbled upon. Maybe it will result in the removal of the inscribed Arab text on the outside of the church. Perhaps a new war will begin.

Regards,

Shirt.

[EasternQibla]

...
He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things.
...
What all of these verses mean is that God is Omnipresent. It doesn't mean that God is contained in the creation or that the creation is contained in God. The Creator and the creation are seperate. The Creater is Al-Wahid (the One) and al-Ahad (Alone).

How can Allah be both "the Outward and the Inward"? Isn't this a contradiction?

"God is Omnipresent. It doesn't mean that God is contained in the creation or that the creation is contained in God." What then does Allah's omnipresence mean in Islam?

I know how I understanding these things, but want to hear how Muslims understand them.

Thank you,

Richard

[Mercyonmankind]

How can Allah be both "the Outward and the Inward"? Isn't this a contradiction?

"God is Omnipresent. It doesn't mean that God is contained in the creation or that the creation is contained in God." What then does Allah's omnipresence mean in Islam?

I know how I understanding these things, but want to hear how Muslims understand them.

Thank you,

Richard

By Outward it means - The Manifest One
By Inward it means - The Hidden One

We cannot compare God existence to the existence of His Creation.. God is incomparable...

There is a parallel universe to our universe, the hidden universe and the manifest universe. We are in the manifest universe and most of us can not see the hidden universe. For example God said in the Quran that we have two angels assigned to us who are recording our deeds.. But we can't see them, so these angels exist in the hidden universe.. By the permission of God they can enter the manifest realm and so can we enter the hidden realm..

[Ron Shirt]

By Outward it means - The Manifest One
By Inward it means - The Hidden One

We cannot compare God existence to the existence of His Creation.. God is incomparable...

There is a parallel universe to our universe, the hidden universe and the manifest universe. We are in the manifest universe and most of us can not see the hidden universe. For example God said in the Quran that we have two angels assigned to us who are recording our deeds.. But we can't see them, so these angels exist in the hidden universe.. By the permission of God they can enter the manifest realm and so can we enter the hidden realm..

Surely this is an obvious contradiction: if God is the 'outer and the inner' and by outward is meant - the 'Manifest one' then the Manifest one is quite clearly God's creation. Yet you say that God is 'completely seperate' from His creation...

Salaam, Ron

[EasternQibla]

The reason I am asking these questions is to see to what extent we are permitted to use logic with regards to what has been revealed about Allah.

If we can use logic, then surely God cannot be both hidden and manifest.

Again, from another similar topic,

What is the relationship between Allah's unseen essence and His most evident immanent presence?

What does Islam have to say about these names, except that they are qualities of Allah?

Is Allah somehow divided into parts - part called 'unseen essence' and another 'immanent presence'?

I'm just seeing to what extent contradictory things are said about Allah in Islam because He is above our comprehension, and to what extent we use logic to deduce things about Allah from what has been revealed in Islam. For example, I did think Islam did not use the term 'essence' of God - or is it a word that is used merely to help us talk about aspects of God, being deduced so to speak?

Blessings,

Richard

[ParadiseLost]

Allah is everywhere by His knowledge but He is above His throne because he is the Most High and there is nothing above Him.

Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawa ) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allah, your Lord; so worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember? [10:3]


Have you not seen that Allaah knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), — nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), — nor of less than that or more but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be” [58:7]


And He is the Irresistible, (Supreme) above His slaves, and He is the All-Wise, Well-Acquainted with all things. [6:18]



This video is useful although the sound is a little behind but listen to it anyway.

[Mercyonmankind]

Surely this is an obvious contradiction: if God is the 'outer and the inner' and by outward is meant - the 'Manifest one' then the Manifest one is quite clearly God's creation. Yet you say that God is 'completely seperate' from His creation...

Salaam, Ron

By Manifest it doesn't mean you can see Him with your worldly eyes.. It can be applied to His Mercy, Wrath etc... which are manifest through out His creation..
Allah knows best..

Edited by Mercyonmankind, 04 November 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[Abu Firdaws]

The reason I am asking these questions is to see to what extent we are permitted to use logic with regards to what has been revealed about Allah.

If we can use logic, then surely God cannot be both hidden and manifest.

Again, from another similar topic,
Is Allah somehow divided into parts - part called 'unseen essence' and another 'immanent presence'?

I'm just seeing to what extent contradictory things are said about Allah in Islam because He is above our comprehension, and to what extent we use logic to deduce things about Allah from what has been revealed in Islam. For example, I did think Islam did not use the term 'essence' of God - or is it a word that is used merely to help us talk about aspects of God, being deduced so to speak?

Blessings,

Richard

We only say about Allaah what He said about Himself in the Qur'an. For example the Qur'an mentions the "hands" of Allaah, so we can say Allaah has "hands"... but that's as far as we can go. We can't start debating as to how Allaah has "hands" or what His "hands" look like or anything like that... we don't go beyond that which was revealed to us like the Christians seem to do.

[Ron Shirt]

We only say about Allaah what He said about Himself in the Qur'an. For example the Qur'an mentions the "hands" of Allaah, so we can say Allaah has "hands"... but that's as far as we can go. We can't start debating as to how Allaah has "hands" or what His "hands" look like or anything like that... we don't go beyond that which was revealed to us like the Christians seem to do.

I'm not sure that logic and religion always go together.

Personally I don't see why speculation should be forbidden, provided it is done with a good intent.

Some branches of Islam (such as the Dervishes and Sufis) through the teachings of Ibn-el Arabi and others have the idea that there is an absolute unknown - or al-Ghayb al-Mutlaq, His absolute essence, known only to Himself and then there is 'the Divine effulgence' through which His creation becomes manifest.

I find these things helpful and interesting to think about, if only to be able to form more concrete concepts regarding Allah and the world.

Ron

[Abu Firdaws]

I'm not sure that logic and religion always go together.

Personally I don't see why speculation should be forbidden, provided it is done with a good intent.

Some branches of Islam (such as the Dervishes and Sufis) through the teachings of Ibn-el Arabi and others have the idea that there is an absolute unknown - or al-Ghayb al-Mutlaq, His absolute essence, known only to Himself and then there is 'the Divine effulgence' through which His creation becomes manifest.

I find these things helpful and interesting to think about, if only to be able to form more concrete concepts regarding Allah and the world.

Ron

Having good intent doesn't make it ok. Those who worshipped idols had good intention, they believed that the idols would get them closer to God... yet they were doing something which isn't acceptable to God. As Muslims we do not go beyond the boundaries, because this is what corrupted the religions of the past and lead them to saying/believing things about God which were not true. We only know about God what He taught us, forming our own opinions leads to dangers and is not at all necessary. We need to have proof for what we say/believe, we aren't like the followers of other faiths which make it up as they go along.

The beliefs of dervishes and sufis have nothing to do with the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

Edited by Abu Firdaws, 04 November 2011 - 05:15 PM.

[Ron Shirt]

Having good intent doesn't make it ok. Those who worshipped idols had good intention, they believed that the idols would get them closer to God... yet they were doing something which isn't acceptable to God. As Muslims we do not go beyond the boundaries, because this is what corrupted the religions of the past and lead them to saying/believing things about God which were not true. We only know about God what He taught us, forming our own opinions leads to dangers and is not at all necessary. We need to have proof for what we say/believe, we aren't like the followers of other faiths which make it up as they go along.

The beliefs of dervishes and sufis have nothing to do with the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

Well I'm sorry for your harsh stance on this.
To say that the beliefs of the Sufi's and Dervishes have nothing to do with the Quran is simply not true. They would say that they base the whole of their belief on the Quran and their teachings are full of quotations from the Quran.

I certainly hope that the majority of mankind will never ever become mindless robots who are forbidden to speculate on things.
This is (probably) one of the most abhorant things that the conservative face of Islam presents to the world. I'm very sorry, but if thinking is stifled then our real humnanity is lost to a tyranny.

Salaam

ron

[Abu Firdaws]

Well I'm sorry for your harsh stance on this.
To say that the beliefs of the Sufi's and Dervishes have nothing to do with the Quran is simply not true. They would say that they base the whole of their belief on the Quran and their teachings are full of quotations from the Quran.

I certainly hope that the majority of mankind will never ever become mindless robots who are forbidden to speculate on things.
This is (probably) one of the most abhorant things that the conservative face of Islam presents to the world. I'm very sorry, but if thinking is stifled then our real humnanity is lost to a tyranny.

Salaam

ron

This is not a harsh stance, this is the stance of the Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him and the companions when it came to innovated matters in the religion.

Perhaps you could point me towards the evidence in the Qur'an or Sunnah which support the practices of the dervishes.

I'm saddened that you feel my position is harsh, I can assure you the teachings of the sufis and the dervishes are not supported by the Qur'an or the authentic Sunnah. I'm quite happy to discuss this with you providing we do so referring to the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and the understanding of the companions.

By the way, are you a Muslim?

[Redeem]

Well I'm sorry for your harsh stance on this.
To say that the beliefs of the Sufi's and Dervishes have nothing to do with the Quran is simply not true. They would say that they base the whole of their belief on the Quran and their teachings are full of quotations from the Quran.

I certainly hope that the majority of mankind will never ever become mindless robots who are forbidden to speculate on things.
This is (probably) one of the most abhorant things that the conservative face of Islam presents to the world. I'm very sorry, but if thinking is stifled then our real humnanity is lost to a tyranny.

Salaam

ron

And I certainly hope that the majority of Muslims won't live to disrespect Allah by "free thinking" their way through life. If you want Islam, take it as it was revealed to Allah and taught by His Messenger, who in turn passed his knowledge to the following generations. Anything beyond that is the invention of man and has no place in God's law.

On another note, sectarian discussions are not permitted on Gawaher.

Salam.