120 replies to this topic

[Abu Firdaws]

I agree that God is all knowing and omnipresent and He doesn't have to be somehere to know what's going on, but I really don't know how God operates that way. I just know He is all knowing and omnipresent

Yes and the point I was making is that we Muslims do NOT believe that God is omnipresent. We believe that He does NOT reside amongst His creation, but His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain.

Does the Bible support the idea of God being omnipresent? Or does the Bible agree with the Qur'an which states that God is above the heavens?

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth. [Psalms 108:5]

You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar. [Psalms 139:2]

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” [Genesis 11:5-7]

Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” [Genesis 18:20-21]

[Wesley]

[2:115] To Allah belongs the East and the West; so whithersover you turn, there will be the face of Allah. Surely, Allah is Bountiful, All-Knowing.
[2:186] And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me
[2:255] His throne extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them wearies Him not; and He is the High, the Great.
[4:58] And surely, excellent is that with which Allah admonishes you. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.
[6:103] The eyes see Him not, but He sees the eyes (of man) ; He is the All-subtle, the All-aware.
[10:61] And there is not hidden from thy Lord even an atom's weight in the earth or in heaven
[24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth
[34:50] Say, “If I err, I alone would bear its consequences. But if I am on the right path, it is because my Lord sends me the revelation. Indeed, He hears all, and He is really close at hand.”
[50:16]We are nearer to him than his life-vein
[57:3] HE is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and HE has full knowledge of all things.

Now I know someone will say "these are just attributes of Allah" or "the Qur'an doesn't categorically state All is always everywhere." Allah is beyond any person's imagination or scope of knowledge. However, even if one attribute of Allah is present everywhere, then the whole of Allah is everywhere.

[aj4u]

Yes and the point I was making is that we Muslims do NOT believe that God is omnipresent. We believe that He does NOT reside amongst His creation, but His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain.

Does the Bible support the idea of God being omnipresent? Or does the Bible agree with the Qur'an which states that God is above the heavens?

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth. [Psalms 108:5]

You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar. [Psalms 139:2]

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” [Genesis 11:5-7]

Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” [Genesis 18:20-21]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Your god is not omnipresent, but my God is. Therefore, we both have different Gods. The point is you have limited The God of the Bible to your own understanding. You say God is not omnipresent. You see, I am not the one who put limits on God.
The Bible shows that Satan is not omnipresent, but God is. Satan is limited - not God

Edited by aj4u, 08 November 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[Ron Shirt]

Yes and the point I was making is that we Muslims do NOT believe that God is omnipresent. We believe that He does NOT reside amongst His creation, but His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain.

Does the Bible support the idea of God being omnipresent? Or does the Bible agree with the Qur'an which states that God is above the heavens?

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth. [Psalms 108:5]

You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar. [Psalms 139:2]

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” [Genesis 11:5-7]

Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” [Genesis 18:20-21]

Hi, so you feel able to seperate God from His knowledge then? How is that?

Ron

[Ron Shirt]

Yes and the point I was making is that we Muslims do NOT believe that God is omnipresent. We believe that He does NOT reside amongst His creation, but His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain.

Does the Bible support the idea of God being omnipresent? Or does the Bible agree with the Qur'an which states that God is above the heavens?

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth. [Psalms 108:5]

You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar. [Psalms 139:2]

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” [Genesis 11:5-7]

Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” [Genesis 18:20-21]

Hi, so you feel able to seperate God from His knowledge then? How is that?

Ron

[Abu Firdaws]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Your god is not omnipresent, but my God is. Therefore, we both have different Gods. The point is you have limited The God of the Bible to your own understanding. You say God is not omnipresent. You see, I am not the one who put limits on God.
The Bible shows that Satan is not omnipresent, but God is. Satan is limited - not God

There is only one God, so one of us is right and the other wrong.

How am I putting a limit on God because I do not believe that He is omnipresent? I'm sorry, but what you have said is beyond stupid. I don't believe that God is like His creation; is that putting a limit on God? I don't believe that God drives a car; is that putting a limit on God? What you have said clearly suggests to me that you have absolutely no idea about the concept of God.

[Abu Firdaws]

Hi, so you feel able to seperate God from His knowledge then? How is that?

Ron

What are you talking about? I am merely quoting what Allaah said in the Qur'an!

“Allaah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or receive admonition)?” [al-Sajdah 32:4]

“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things [Yoonus 10:3]

“To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it (i.e. the goodly words are not accepted by Allaah unless and until they are followed by good deeds) [Faatir 35:10]

“He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him) [al-Hadeed 57:3]

[aj4u]

There is only one God, so one of us is right and the other wrong.

How am I putting a limit on God because I do not believe that He is omnipresent? I'm sorry, but what you have said is beyond stupid. I don't believe that God is like His creation; is that putting a limit on God? I don't believe that God drives a car; is that putting a limit on God? What you have said clearly suggests to me that you have absolutely no idea about the concept of God.

sigh

[Wesley]

Abu,

See Post #62...

You have to use the whole Qur'an. Yes, the verses you showed are definitely true, but not exclusive of all that God is.

[aj4u]

There is only one God, so one of us is right and the other wrong.

How am I putting a limit on God because I do not believe that He is omnipresent? I'm sorry, but what you have said is beyond stupid. I don't believe that God is like His creation; is that putting a limit on God? I don't believe that God drives a car; is that putting a limit on God? What you have said clearly suggests to me that you have absolutely no idea about the concept of God.

The Omnipresence Of God

by Allan Turner

The God who is eternal, and therefore not limited by time, is omnipresent, and not limited by space (Psalm 139:7-10; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:23,24). He is universally present to all of space at all times. Even so, this does not mean that He is dispersed throughout the infinite reaches of space, so that every part of space has at least a little part of God. In other words, God is not present in all space; He is, instead, present to all of space. This means that the unlimited God in His whole being is present at every point of our space. Perhaps a better way to express God's omnipresence is to say that all space is immediately present before Him.

God's omnipresence does not prevent Him from manifesting Himself in a localized place. In fact, although His self-existent, eternal, and infinite Being is present to all of space equally, He has, on occasion, entered space at specific points and become present in it for a specific purpose. These “theophanies,” as they are called, most often involved redemption. For example, the pillar of cloud bearing the glory of God that appeared before the israelites (Exodus 33:9; 40:34; I Kings 8:10ff) is but one example of such a case. Of course, the most dramatic incident of God entering time and space was the incarnation itself (John 1:14; I Timothy 3:16). Consequently, Jesus was called Immanuel, or “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). But, in entering time and space, God, in His self-existent, eternal, and infinite Being, did not cease to be omnipresent. He was, in fact, still present to every point of space, holding everything together by the word of His power (Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3). In fact, it is evidently the omnipresence of “God with us” that is the subject of John 3:13, which says, “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of God who is in heaven.”

If omnipresence is not under discussion, then pray(plz) tell me what is? Remember, these words were being spoken by God Himself while manifested here on this earth in the person of Jesus Christ. Another example of God interjecting Himself into time and space would be the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), as well as His indwelling of the body of every Christian (I Corinthians 6:19). “Mind-boggling,” you say? Yes, but such is the nature of the great I AM.
I do not put limits on God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by aj4u, 09 November 2011 - 01:08 AM.

[Ron Shirt]

"Yes and the point I was making is that we Muslims do NOT believe that God is omnipresent. We believe that He does NOT reside amongst His creation, but His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain."

Isn't this a contradiction? Your interpretation is that somehow He is presnt yet not present. How can He NOT reside amongst His creation when:

"His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain."

Ron

[Abu Firdaws]

The Omnipresence Of God

by Allan Turner

The God who is eternal, and therefore not limited by time, is omnipresent, and not limited by space (Psalm 139:7-10; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:23,24). He is universally present to all of space at all times. Even so, this does not mean that He is dispersed throughout the infinite reaches of space, so that every part of space has at least a little part of God. In other words, God is not present in all space; He is, instead, present to all of space. This means that the unlimited God in His whole being is present at every point of our space. Perhaps a better way to express God's omnipresence is to say that all space is immediately present before Him.

God's omnipresence does not prevent Him from manifesting Himself in a localized place. In fact, although His self-existent, eternal, and infinite Being is present to all of space equally, He has, on occasion, entered space at specific points and become present in it for a specific purpose. These “theophanies,” as they are called, most often involved redemption. For example, the pillar of cloud bearing the glory of God that appeared before the israelites (Exodus 33:9; 40:34; I Kings 8:10ff) is but one example of such a case. Of course, the most dramatic incident of God entering time and space was the incarnation itself (John 1:14; I Timothy 3:16). Consequently, Jesus was called Immanuel, or “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). But, in entering time and space, God, in His self-existent, eternal, and infinite Being, did not cease to be omnipresent. He was, in fact, still present to every point of space, holding everything together by the word of His power (Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3). In fact, it is evidently the omnipresence of “God with us” that is the subject of John 3:13, which says, “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of God who is in heaven.”

If omnipresence is not under discussion, then pray(plz) tell me what is? Remember, these words were being spoken by God Himself while manifested here on this earth in the person of Jesus Christ. Another example of God interjecting Himself into time and space would be the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), as well as His indwelling of the body of every Christian (I Corinthians 6:19). “Mind-boggling,” you say? Yes, but such is the nature of the great I AM.
I do not put limits on God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing more to say to you, I've given you the verses from the Bible and from the Qur'an. God is above the heavens, His Knowledge encompasses all creation. No problem, no contradiction, and no affect on me or you.

[Abu Firdaws]

"Yes and the point I was making is that we Muslims do NOT believe that God is omnipresent. We believe that He does NOT reside amongst His creation, but His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain."

Isn't this a contradiction? Your interpretation is that somehow He is presnt yet not present. How can He NOT reside amongst His creation when:

"His Knowledge encompasses everything that we say, do, and even think, and that is how He is closer to us than our jugular vain."

Ron

It is a contradiction for the one who believes that Allaah is like His creation; do you have a problem with Allaah being the First and the Last? The Eternal? These all contradict the realities of our world -- do you deny them also?

[Ron Shirt]

It is a contradiction for the one who believes that Allaah is like His creation; do you have a problem with Allaah being the First and the Last? The Eternal? These all contradict the realities of our world -- do you deny them also?

I don't have a problem with Him being the First and the Last. That seems pretty straightforward to me - until you try and analyse it.
I would say NOT that he IS His creation but that His creation is a manifestation of Him. I don't know if His creation is like Him or not.

I don't mind admitting that I don't know something when I don't know it.

All of this is about forming a concept or a mental model which may help us to understand things anyway.
'
The contradiction seemed to be when it was said that : 'He is closer to us than our juguler vein'. Then at the same time it was said that he is 'completely seperate from His creation.'

ron

[Abu Firdaws]

I don't have a problem with Him being the First and the Last. That seems pretty straightforward to me - until you try and analyse it.
I would say NOT that he IS His creation but that His creation is a manifestation of Him. I don't know if His creation is like Him or not.

I don't mind admitting that I don't know something when I don't know it.

All of this is about forming a concept or a mental model which may help us to understand things anyway.
'
The contradiction seemed to be when it was said that : 'He is closer to us than our juguler vein'. Then at the same time it was said that he is 'completely seperate from His creation.'

ron

As I've already explained to you God is above the heavens, but His knowledge encompasses everything of His creation -- why is that so difficult for you to understand? If I were to make a phone call to someone half way around the world do I have to be physically there? It's the same concept. HOW does God know our most inner-thoughts? We do not know this, but we accept that He can and leave it at that. Just because you can't make sense of something doesn't mean you then try rationalise it at the cost of destroying your faith.

And what do you mean you do not know whether His creation is like Him? There is nothing like Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala and to think otherwise is a serious serious mistake.

[Ron Shirt]

[57:3] HE is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and HE has full knowledge of all things.

This is the root of my problem, I believe.

If He is both the Manifest and the Hidden. Then that is what He IS. So He IS both, His creation (The Manifest) and the Un-Manifest (the Hidden)

This is simple logic. Either this verse is incorrect or is misleadingly worded.

Salaam,
Ron

[Abu Firdaws]

[57:3] HE is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and HE has full knowledge of all things.

This is the root of my problem, I believe.

If He is both the Manifest and the Hidden. Then that is what He IS. So He IS both, His creation (The Manifest) and the Un-Manifest (the Hidden)

This is simple logic. Either this verse is incorrect or is misleadingly worded.

Salaam,
Ron

What do you mean? What is your understanding of the word "manifest" in the context of God? Could you tell me how God is manifest?

And I've already explained the issue of Arabic and translation on this thread I believe.

[Ron Shirt]

What do you mean? What is your understanding of the word "manifest" in the context of God? Could you tell me how God is manifest?

And I've already explained the issue of Arabic and translation on this thread I believe.

Well my dictionary says: "to show something clearly, through signs or actions".

I would have said in this context in means: "To bring into being" A verb. So maybe this is where the discrepancy lies.
But the Quranic quote specifically says :Outer ( as being the opposite of Inner, i.e. hidden)

How would you define OUTER, if it is not His creation, ie. the material world which we can observe and are ourselves a part of ?

Ron

[Abu Firdaws]

Well my dictionary says: "to show something clearly, through signs or actions".

I would have said in this context in means: "To bring into being" A verb. So maybe this is where the discrepancy lies.
But the Quranic quote specifically says :Outer ( as being the opposite of Inner, i.e. hidden)

How would you define OUTER, if it is not His creation, ie. the material world which we can observe and are ourselves a part of ?

Ron

Can you tell me what the word is in Arabic which you are translating as "Outer"?

[Ron Shirt]

Can you tell me what the word is in Arabic which you are translating as "Outer"?

You are just the person I wanted to meet, by the way! Particularly because I have little or no knowledge of Arabic.

You'll need to ask the person who quoted this Quranic verse in the first place:

QUOTE(Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz @ Jun 30 2011, 05:53 PM) *
...
He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things.

As he is a moderator he should know.

Salaam

Ron