120 replies to this topic

[Ron Shirt]

peace to the truth seekers,

Ron, yes Allah is as he, all mighty, said, without "How". show me your spirit!! i'll explain now,
050.016 Y: It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
058.007 Y: Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three, but He makes the fourth among them, - Nor between five but He makes the sixth,- nor between fewer nor more, but He is in their midst, wheresoever they be: In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.

1st we have to admit that our mind, reasoning, perceiving and imagination have a limitations. And loading that mind with what beyond his limitations is not a wise decision. Exactly as you put over you shoulders more than 2000 tons or more, what could happen to it

We can't have any idea about "zat Allah ÐÇÊ Çááå" except what he, all mity told about himself, I think that could be translated to be "his shape, physics, psychology, …" the know how" he be here or there how he communicate with angles, human and all of his creatures. Are these inspirations are electromagnetic waves, photons or what ….. that's surly out of the human being capabilities.

In fact, There are still many things the human have no idea about like, how big the universe is? Can you imagine that the number of stars in this universe is more than the number of sand pieces on this earth……. And the nearest star to ours is 10 Light years away…….. The light speed is 300,000 km/sec…… who did imagine that?

Thankyou very much for this - most helpful!

Regards,

Ron
what was before the beginning of the universe? What is the time meaning before universe creation or even before the earth formation ? To where the universe is expanding into? I believe we didn't see but less than 0.1% of the universe and the same ratio in the underwater life.

Why go so far, let's get into ourselves. Where is your spirit? Is it in the mind, heart every cell? Where is it in every cell, in the nuclei? Where in the nuclei, in the DNA? And where in the DNA?.....
If you have two single cells creatures, one is alive while the second is just 2 minutes dead, what could happened to the second? Can you retain life to it?

We have no idea, and we will not, it's done, it's out of our previous and future knowledge. Allah tells in the Quran
017.085 Y: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Allah told us all what we need to know about his "Zat", we have to receive without the "how", it's out of our minds limitations,
002.255 Y: Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

While we have some good allowance to discuss his, all mighty, attributes, beautiful names. using the "what that means?" not "how can he do that?"
017.110 Y: Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."
017.111 Y: Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

In the Authentic Hadeeth in Moslem, the prophet (pbuh) said, what meant, " the people will say Allah has created every thing. Who created Allah?.... when any one reaches that he have to stop and says: "Aamnto Bellah" I believed in Allah"

I'm asking Allah to grant us all the right believe and the good deeds, amen

[Ron Shirt]

peace to the truth seekers,

Ron, yes Allah is as he, all mighty, said, without "How". show me your spirit!! i'll explain now,
050.016 Y: It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
058.007 Y: Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three, but He makes the fourth among them, - Nor between five but He makes the sixth,- nor between fewer nor more, but He is in their midst, wheresoever they be: In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.

1st we have to admit that our mind, reasoning, perceiving and imagination have a limitations. And loading that mind with what beyond his limitations is not a wise decision. Exactly as you put over you shoulders more than 2000 tons or more, what could happen to it

We can't have any idea about "zat Allah ÐÇÊ Çááå" except what he, all mity told about himself, I think that could be translated to be "his shape, physics, psychology, …" the know how" he be here or there how he communicate with angles, human and all of his creatures. Are these inspirations are electromagnetic waves, photons or what ….. that's surly out of the human being capabilities.

In fact, There are still many things the human have no idea about like, how big the universe is? Can you imagine that the number of stars in this universe is more than the number of sand pieces on this earth……. And the nearest star to ours is 10 Light years away…….. The light speed is 300,000 km/sec…… who did imagine that?
what was before the beginning of the universe? What is the time meaning before universe creation or even before the earth formation ? To where the universe is expanding into? I believe we didn't see but less than 0.1% of the universe and the same ratio in the underwater life.

Why go so far, let's get into ourselves. Where is your spirit? Is it in the mind, heart every cell? Where is it in every cell, in the nuclei? Where in the nuclei, in the DNA? And where in the DNA?.....
If you have two single cells creatures, one is alive while the second is just 2 minutes dead, what could happened to the second? Can you retain life to it?

We have no idea, and we will not, it's done, it's out of our previous and future knowledge. Allah tells in the Quran
017.085 Y: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Allah told us all what we need to know about his "Zat", we have to receive without the "how", it's out of our minds limitations,
002.255 Y: Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

While we have some good allowance to discuss his, all mighty, attributes, beautiful names. using the "what that means?" not "how can he do that?"
017.110 Y: Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."
017.111 Y: Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

In the Authentic Hadeeth in Moslem, the prophet (pbuh) said, what meant, " the people will say Allah has created every thing. Who created Allah?.... when any one reaches that he have to stop and says: "Aamnto Bellah" I believed in Allah"

I'm asking Allah to grant us all the right believe and the good deeds, amen

Thankyou very much for this - most helpful!

Regards,

Ron

[aj4u]

Where is that in any heavenly book?????????
As a Moslem, describing the god' "zaat, ذات", self or physics… is out of my knowledge, capabilities and mind limitations, except what he, all mighty told about himself.
Although I like that, but from where did you got it, is it in the bible??????

I noticed before that you don't like to discuss the describtions of the god in the bible, am I right?????????
He likes to have rest every now and then: GN 2:2
Have no Idea where Adam is!!: GN 3:9
Afraid of the man knowledge!! GN 3:22
Repents? GN 6:6, Ex 32-14
But doesn't repent!! Nm 23-19
Smells and re-correct his way with people GN 8:21
put some signs to remind himself!! GN 9:15
eats!! GN 18:8
hesitates!! GN 18:18
weak and looses the wrestling!!! GN 32-26
Sleepy Drunkard!! Ps 78:65
Like to shave with hired razor!!! PS 7:20
irresponsible actions, trying to kill a prophet for no reason, but the woman stopped him!! Ex 4:24
Children killer: KG II 2:24
Weak in front of modern weapons: JGS 1:19

That is my deduction from the Scriptures. I might want to say that God is the Holy eternal Spirit who is NOT bound by the confines of time and space with all things before His presents in all its dimensions past present and future. It doesn't state this in the Bible per se, but this is my understanding of the Scriptures. The thing about God I don't like to explain is how God can be a trinity and be only one God. I am constantly asked this and there is no good explanation. I tried mentioning H20 comes in liquid, gas and solid being the same one substance, but that doesn't do it or the two mirrors that reflect the one sun the one in heaven and the two on earth but there being only one true sun. That doesn't do it justice, but it is the best earthly explanation I have.

God repenting means He changed His mind. God can do that. Don't forget Man is made in His image. He is, therefore, able to do what we do without sin or failure. Just because he asked Adam where are you? doesn't mean He didn't know where he was; God was eliciting a response from Adam. The rainbow was to remind us of His promise and He reassures us that He will remember. The sign helps us not Him. God is not mentally lacking. It states that God awoke as from a sleep like a person who drank wine. These are similes and metaphoric. IOW, the Bible is a historic and poetic book or books.

When it says we hid in the shadow of the wings of the almighty. It doesn't mean God has wings or when it says the earth is His footstool, it doesn't mean He has a gigantic foot stepping of the earth. We should NOT be childish when reading the Bible, but instead use mature spiritual discernment by understanding the spirit of it. God is not limited by modern weapons, but His people can be for different reasons such as lack of faith. Don't think I can't show the negative limitation or aspects of Allah in the Quran like you’re trying to do with the God of the Bible. BTW, Some of your references don't exist in my Bible such as PS 7: 20

Peace

Edited by aj4u, 13 November 2011 - 08:36 PM.

[AHMAD_73]

That is my deduction from the Scriptures. I might want to say that God is the Holy eternal Spirit who is NOT bound by the confines of time and space with all things before His presents in all its dimensions past present and future.

God repenting means He changed His mind. God can do that. Peace

aj4u , i still like the first part, but with out the word "spirit", it may be "god", since the god didn't say it about himself,

while i have 4 points about the second part:

1- it contradict with the Nm 23-19 which clearly tells the god don't repent since he is not a man.

2- it contradict with your first part, if the god know the past, present and future then he suppose not to do something and then repent, he suppose to do it absolute from the first time and forever.

3- the knowledgeable and intelligent man who do more good choices have and fewer not-good choices is more better than the opposite. and since the god is the absolute in knowledge and intelligence, he suppose to be absolute in actions, no repentance.

4- on His image don't indicat with his mannars and ethics,

real peace to you too

[AHMAD_73]

BTW, Some of your references don't exist in my Bible such as PS 7: 20

Peace

sorry for that, yes your right. it is IS 7:20

"In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard"

have the real peace

[aj4u]

aj4u , i still like the first part, but with out the word "spirit", it may be "god", since the god didn't say it about himself,

while i have 4 points about the second part:

1- it contradict with the Nm 23-19 which clearly tells the god don't repent since he is not a man.

2- it contradict with your first part, if the god know the past, present and future then he suppose not to do something and then repent, he suppose to do it absolute from the first time and forever.

3- the knowledgeable and intelligent man who do more good choices have and fewer not-good choices is more better than the opposite. and since the god is the absolute in knowledge and intelligence, he suppose to be absolute in actions, no repentance.

4- on His image don't indicat with his mannars and ethics,

real peace to you too

Everyone has their own preconceived idea of what God should be able to do and what He shouldn't be able to do. Man also has his own interpretation of what and why God does things. Context is another factor. For instance, someone could say let go or someone says hang on. In the right connotation they are both right. For example, let go of your doubt and hang on to God. God doesn't repent and God does repent depending on the context. Balak was trying to get a prophet to curse God's people, but God is not a man that you can bribe him to change His mind through a prophet; But in other passages God repented that He made man because man had a free will and used it to continually do evil; so, is there not evidence of a world wide flood to prove God repented that He made man and promised never to do such a flood again? if you continue to mind quote, you can make or get the Bible to say almost anything you want to believe. The same can be done with the Quran. This doesn't get us anywhere
Peace to u as well!

Edited by aj4u, 13 November 2011 - 10:11 PM.

[AHMAD_73]

The rainbow was to remind us of His promise and He reassures us that He will remember. The sign helps us not Him. God is not mentally lacking.
Peace

in fact brother, Although I re-red the passage in Arabic and English, it's so clear these signs are for the god himself, to remind himself, not the people. i believe the god was able to ctear that point very easelly. or may be the translation!!

[ 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth] Gn9:14-16

While I'm care about another point, the rainbow in the sky is related to a natural phenomena when the light scatters some specific body, like the clouds and be analysed to its basic 7 colors, as I can remember from high school. You can see it all the time more clear when traveling by plane over the clouds. And I think it's always in the north pole. It seems to have no relation with the human sins.
I mean in some countries there is no rainbows at all and in some it almost all the year. Is that mean the hot climate countries don't sin? Or the north pole, where almost no one lives, is sinner all the time, or what?

have real peace, brother

[aj4u]

in fact brother, Although I re-red the passage in Arabic and English, it's so clear these signs are for the god himself, to remind himself, not the people. i believe the god was able to ctear that point very easelly. or may be the translation!!

[ 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth] Gn9:14-16

While I'm care about another point, the rainbow in the sky is related to a natural phenomena when the light scatters some specific body, like the clouds and be analysed to its basic 7 colors, as I can remember from high school. You can see it all the time more clear when traveling by plane over the clouds. And I think it's always in the north pole. It seems to have no relation with the human sins.
I mean in some countries there is no rainbows at all and in some it almost all the year. Is that mean the hot climate countries don't sin? Or the north pole, where almost no one lives, is sinner all the time, or what?

have real peace, brother

Okay, lets agree God did it to remind Himself. If he is powerful enough to create a rainbow, He is powerful enough to be my God. As far as the connection to sin all I know the sin of homosexuality uses the sign of the rainbow to show their sin. that is all I know

Edited by aj4u, 14 November 2011 - 02:16 AM.

[the sad clown]

I just wanted to say I really liked the quote. This is the only place on the internet I could find it.

[EasternQibla]

I have just found this in the Quran:

2:115. To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing

The presence of Allaah is wherever we turn! Of course, this is not the only description of Allaah, e.g. He is also above the heavens.

So what is all the fuss about? Why are Muslims unwilling to adhere to this simple verse and believe that Allaah is indeed everywhere? This may not be the full truth about Allaah, but it is part of the truth about him.

Richard

[Scotia]

Okay, lets agree God did it to remind Himself. If he is powerful enough to create a rainbow, He is powerful enough to be my God. As far as the connection to sin all I know the sin of homosexuality uses the sign of the rainbow to show their sin. that is all I know

On a sunny day i can create a rainbow with a garden hose, do you want to worship me?

[andalusi]

I have just found this in the Quran:



The presence of Allaah is wherever we turn! Of course, this is not the only description of Allaah, e.g. He is also above the heavens.

So what is all the fuss about? Why are Muslims unwilling to adhere to this simple verse and believe that Allaah is indeed everywhere? This may not be the full truth about Allaah, but it is part of the truth about him.

Richard

No, Allah is not everywhere, Allah is everywhere with His knowledge, sight and hearing. Allah is above the seven heavens, or 7 universes, correctly He is above centre of the paradise wich is called Firdews, His throne is above Firdews, that is where rivers of paradise are coming from.

How do we know that Allah is above heavens and not everywhere around us, simple, prophet Muhammed told us that

Muawiyah bin Al-Hakam As-Salmi said:
"I had a slave-girl who used to herd sheep for me. One day I discovered that a wolf had killed one of her sheep, and I'm a man from the children of Adam, I get upset like they get upset, and I slapped her in the face. Then I went to the Prophet who impressed upon me the seriousness of my act. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, should I not set her free?' He said, 'Bring her to me.' He asked her, 'Where is Allah', She said, 'He is above the heavens.' He said, 'Who am I?' She said, 'You are the Messenger of Allah.' He said, 'Free her, for she is a believer.' (Muslim and Abu Dawud)

[EasternQibla]

"Allah is not everywhere" - yet this seems to go against the part of the Quran I quoted.
So I am thinking, why are you against the belief that Allah is everywhere? What do you think such a belief implies that is so wrong? (I am thinking that we could be getting crossed in terminology)

Richard

[Ron Shirt]

Again this concept, statement, perception - whatever one wants to call it has arisen.
A few years ago I was banned for saying that certain Muslims were polytheists which seemed logical to me, given that God is everywhere, it must be a form of polythieism to say that God is not One and that there is something or things which are seperate from Him. This is a straightforward philosophical argument.
It appears that people are extremely reluctant to actually say 'I don't know' - (another trait that Muslims have in common with the rest of humanity.)
And it seems that the Qu'ran is unclear or seems contradictory regarding this issue. But then, maybe 'only God knows' is the only answer.

regards,

ron

[EasternQibla]

Ron,

I am fascinated by your statement "given that God is everywhere, it must be a form of polythieism to say that God is not One and that there is something or things which are seperate from Him. This is a straightforward philosophical argument". Could you clarify please?

But with all such questions, our background can lead us to interpret a statement in vastly different ways: misunderstanding abound!

Thanks,

Richard

[Ron Shirt]

Well to take it a step further: If God is One then that must mean He is the only existent, i.e. the only thing in existance, the only real being. Thus if you assert that there are other things as well as God in existence that would make you a polytheist. At least it would make you a polytheist in a technical sense because actually the true meaning of polytheism is to believe that there is more than one God.

Maybe this is simply a teaching statement which I remembered from many years ago when I was learning about the Sufis.

salaam,

ron

[EasternQibla]

"If God is One then that must mean He is the only existent, i.e. the only thing in existance, the only real being. Thus if you assert that there are other things as well as God in existence that would make you a polytheist"

To be more exact, God's 'existence' is nothing like the meaning of our concept of the word 'existence'. He is uncreated, we are created. Totally different.

[EasternQibla]

"Allah is not everywhere" - yet this seems to go against the part of the Quran I quoted.
So I am thinking, why are you against the belief that Allah is everywhere? What do you think such a belief implies that is so wrong? (I am thinking that we could be getting crossed in terminology)

Richard

Could a Muslim help me to understand this please?

Richard

[Ron Shirt]

"If God is One then that must mean He is the only existent, i.e. the only thing in existance, the only real being. Thus if you assert that there are other things as well as God in existence that would make you a polytheist"

To be more exact, God's 'existence' is nothing like the meaning of our concept of the word 'existence'. He is uncreated, we are created. Totally different.

All this comes down to is how you define 'existence'. It must mean something, musn't it?

ron

[EasternQibla]

All this comes down to is how you define 'existence'. It must mean something, musn't it?

ron

Ron, in (traditional) Christianity, and probably Islam too, we do not grasp Allah by our words trying to describe him, but merely try to eradicate false ideas. We say God exists, not so we can examine our terminology 'exists' to analyse Allah, but we say it so that people do not think that there is no God.

Is this any clearer?

Richard