52 replies to this topic

[Rational Skeptic]

I personally find the concept of hell absurd and repulsive. My question to you guys:

1. Why would Allah send non-believers to hell, unless he's evil and megalomaniac?
2. How is the concept of an eternal hell justified for ANY crime, let alone for not believing?
3. Would you be able to take pleasure in heaven while hearing the agonizing scream of your friends (presuming you have a few non believing friends) or even a fellow human being?

I would love it if you kept it short though, thanks for bearing with me.

[bint Ali......ÈäÊ Úáì]

1. Why would Allah send non-believers to hell, unless he's evil and megalomaniac?

why would anyone disbelieve in his creator after He has created him and given him so many blessings?
for example, would you like your child to serve someone else when he grows up without serving you?after all what you have done for him?

2. How is the concept of an eternal hell justified for ANY crime, let alone for not believing?

and how is it not suitable for anyone to disbelieve after clear signs of the existance of Allah, unless ofcourse that person is blind and deaf to Allah's aayaaths?had that person lived forever by the grace of Allah, that person would have disbelieved forever.

3. Would you be able to take pleasure in heaven while hearing the agonizing scream of your friends (presuming you have a few non believing friends) or even a fellow human being?

it would give me pleasure if i hear those who torture muslims in this world scream in hell. who call themselves good humans...talking about human rights.....how dare they kill innocent muslims just because we believe in Allah. and when we try to protect our selves we become terrorists.

then there are who dont torture the muslims....we muslims if we have non muslim friends, we call to them on to the path of truth.-ie: Islam. if they believe it is good for them...if they dont, then Allah has the right to punish them for their disbelief as Allah has created them and given them all those blessings which they did not even ask for.

[IAmZamzam]

1. Why would Allah send non-believers to hell, unless he's evil and megalomaniac?

The true, literal meaning of "kafir", often translated "evildoer" or "unbeliever", is "one who holds the truth in his heart". If someone disbelieves for no other reason than an honest mistake then they won't be held accountable for that. Problem is: EVERYONE *thinks* they believe what they do for legitimate and intellectually honest reasons, including the biggest self-deceivers in the entire species. That's how the thing works. The question is whether, on some level, this is only what they've *told* themselves to think. (See the final verse of surah 2.)

2. How is the concept of an eternal hell justified for ANY crime, let alone for not believing?

Hell isn't necessarily eternal, and some such as Osama Abdallah have argued that it never is. In any event the scriptures are plain about at least some people being taken out of the fire. One way or another it will be only those who have merited it. We're not talking about a random process here.

3. Would you be able to take pleasure in heaven while hearing the agonizing scream of your friends (presuming you have a few non believing friends) or even a fellow human being?

I think I heard somewhere of a hadith saying that the blessed will be too overwhelmed by what's happening to be able to even think about it, although this would seem to contradict certain Koranic verses. Being filled with hyperawareness of God's presence would, I think, be sufficiently distracting from even the greatest and most profound concerns.

[writewhite]

I personally find the concept of hell absurd and repulsive. My question to you guys:

1. Why would Allah send non-believers to hell, unless he's evil and megalomaniac?
2. How is the concept of an eternal hell justified for ANY crime, let alone for not believing?
3. Would you be able to take pleasure in heaven while hearing the agonizing scream of your friends (presuming you have a few non believing friends) or even a fellow human being?

I would love it if you kept it short though, thanks for bearing with me.

[at]skeptic
that is how hell is defined'absurd and repulsive' and these are understatements
how absurd/repulsive/ugly is the act of a human killing another just for land/money/woman
what would be the agony like for a mother whose child is abducted and till her death was not found
how ugly do you sense the acts of those that commit crimes upon minors/childrem
how wretched must a woman in middle age feel when her teen aged son is killed for no valid reason
how torturing is it for a spouse to live with the knowledge that the partner is cheating
(the victims above may be of any religion)
it is the feelings of the victims mentioned above that design the abdsurdity and the repulsiveness of hell
every human thought is a creation that will remain for ever unless washed away by Allah
next you ask why hell for not believing?
Allah Guides every person to the truth, and after realising the truth, and the necessity of it, they choose to deny Allah
those shall/should be vindicated
next about enjoying paradise
years-thousands or hundreds of years in paradise and one day the paradise dwellers will be given their good deeds that they did in the world
the paradise dwellers will then ask Allah that since they already reaped the fruits of thier deeds
what good are they then?
So Allah Will Say" go into hell, and anybody who showed you kindness or did you a favour
in the worldly life, give them your deeds so they may make it to paradise
this repitition will go on till Allah Knows When

[Kai Thaabit]

1. It is not that Allah punishes the polytheist, oppressors, hypocrites, or disbelievers with hellfire, but every person is destined for hellfire, but because of His Mercy He Rescues the believers from Hellfire. We all move towards hellfire. Hellfire is like a magnet, but Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala Rescues the Righteous from it. That is the difference. No deeds, even the deeds of all the angels combined are enough for us to enter Paradise and they can never pay back the blessings and favors Allah bestows upon us. It is Allah's Mercy and Kindness that rescues those from the Fire who deserve it.

Allah created us. Therefore, he can do with us whatever He likes. There is no law for Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Why should God Almighty rescue a person who worshipped an idol or the angels. God ignores them because they ignored Him in this world.

If Allah decides to be benevolent then He has the Right to be benevolent and if He decides to be malevolent to the disbelievers and hypocrites then He has the right to do that. He created us and He owns us and He can do with his ownership whatever he wants.

By the way, the warnings are everywhere and the cure against hellfire is also mentioned in abundance. There is no excuse.

[xocoti]

Seems he is rather confused then. He can do whatever he wants and yet he decides to send people to hell, and to avoid it he contrives a series of hoops and tricks that people have to jump though. He seems to be the protagonist and antagonist of the same story.

Edited by xocoti, 06 August 2011 - 12:39 AM.

[bint Ali......ÈäÊ Úáì]

xocoti,no iti is not so. the people diobey Allah then they are putting themselves in hell. it is Allah's mercy that Allah forgives His sincere slaves and saves them from the Hell fire

[xocoti]

So God didn't create hell, he is trying to save us from it? Who created it then?

Edited by xocoti, 06 August 2011 - 06:28 AM.

[twoswordali]

I personally find the concept of hell absurd and repulsive. My question to you guys:

1. Why would Allah send non-believers to hell, unless he's evil and megalomaniac?

Allah says He knows best who is deserving of hell so anyone that HE puts in hell deserves to go to hell

2. How is the concept of an eternal hell justified for ANY crime, let alone for not believing?

Again Allah says that He knows best who is deserving of hell, we dont know, the same way some people dont know that their best friend is be a child molestor.Nevertheless Allah knows best who deserves hell, and if you cant grasp that understanding then no one would be able to answer you.

3. Would you be able to take pleasure in heaven while hearing the agonizing scream of your friends (presuming you have a few non believing friends) or even a fellow human being?

Nobody would hear the agonizing screams of people while n paradise, if im in paradise then my friends will be there as well, the believeres are friends to each other and heaven and hell start in the mind. Like you can be sitting right next to me and we can both be going through a same situation but in your mind you can have hell and in my mind i can have paradise. Do i hear your evil thoughts thats leading you to be in hell?? No i do not. I will be in paradise

[Cruorem_Deus]

why would anyone disbelieve in his creator after He has created him and given him so many blessings?
for example, would you like your child to serve someone else when he grows up without serving you?after all what you have done for him?
and how is it not suitable for anyone to disbelieve after clear signs of the existance of Allah, unless ofcourse that person is blind and deaf to Allah's aayaaths?had that person lived forever by the grace of Allah, that person would have disbelieved forever.

Why would anyone disbelieve?

How about ridiculous assertions with absolutely no evidence to back it up?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I refuse to believe Allah even exists until such evidence can be provided that proves the existence of Allah beyond reasonable doubt.

He created me? Prove it.

Also, I'd expect my children to serve themselves, and make their lives happy and worth living. Children aren't servants.

it would give me pleasure if i hear those who torture muslims in this world scream in hell. who call themselves good humans...talking about human rights.....how dare they kill innocent muslims just because we believe in Allah. and when we try to protect our selves we become terrorists.

It's a sick person that enjoys the screaming and suffering of others. That would make you a sadist.

then there are who dont torture the muslims....we muslims if we have non muslim friends, we call to them on to the path of truth.-ie: Islam. if they believe it is good for them...if they dont, then Allah has the right to punish them for their disbelief as Allah has created them and given them all those blessings which they did not even ask for.

Except you have no evidence to support that claim.

[twoswordali]

Why would anyone disbelieve?

How about ridiculous assertions with absolutely no evidence to back it up?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I refuse to believe Allah even exists until such evidence can be provided that proves the existence of Allah beyond reasonable doubt.

The extraorddinary evidence is the earth and the universe, both of which show that they were created and both of which show that new creations is happening all the time. New galexies forming all the time, now you prove that there is no intelligent force behind the structuring of the earth and the universe. Keep in mind the universe follows laws... not man made laws, laws set in place. So go ahead and try to disprove that there is no intelligent force behind our universe

He created me? Prove it.

OK,you was created by your father and mother comming together, and they was created by their father and mother comming together and so on an so forth ect ect... where does your creation begin, you think it begins with your mother and father?? No it goes back further than that. heres a list of words that is a synonym for create words that science uses for explanation

actualize, author, beget, bring into being, bring into existence, bring to pass, build, cause to be, coin, compose, conceive, concoct, constitute, construct, contrive, design, devise, discover, dream up, effect, erect, establish, fabricate, fashion, father, forge, form, formulate, found, generate, give birth to, give life to, hatch, imagine, initiate, institute, invent, invest, make, occasion, organize, originate, parent, perform, plan, procreate, produce, rear, set up, shape, sire, spawn, start

THE FACT remains that there was an intelligent force behind your creation or you being created if it wasnt then doctors who study the body would be stupid instead of gaining intelligence from studying an intelligent being(a human). The human being which goes through a process, of being created, which leads one to say ,who or what is the originator of this creation. Whatever it is, it must be highly intelligent, we say it is Allah, you say its nothing?? Science helps us to unsderstand the beauty of Allah's creation and the Quran helps us to live in this creation.

Also, I'd expect my children to serve themselves, and make their lives happy and worth living. Children aren't servants.

well if your children arent servents tell them to not breathe, teach them to not be a servent of oxegen, or teach them to conqure death, once you are born you are a servant willingly or unwillingly to the things that God created. So you are a servant of God its your choice whether you reject Him or accept Him and if your teaching your children to reject God then your trying to make them servants to your way of thinking.

It's a sick person that enjoys the screaming and suffering of others. That would make you a sadist.

I 100% agree with this statement it makes you evil as well

[Scotia]

You say......

THE FACT remains that etc...............

without actually providing any facts what so ever

[Ron Shirt]

You say......

THE FACT remains that etc...............

without actually providing any facts what so ever

This, as I have discovered, is the diferrence between faith and actual knowledge. Try looking up epistemolgy, the science of how we can actually say that we know a thing, or not.

regards,

ron

[twoswordali]

You say......

THE FACT remains that etc...............

without actually providing any facts what so ever

science proves that it is an intelligent force.....im not even going to go into all that re read my post and prove otherwise

[Cruorem_Deus]

science proves that it is an intelligent force.....im not even going to go into all that re read my post and prove otherwise

You're missing the point entirely.

My position is "I do not know how the universe was formed.".

I know what happened after the big bang, the universe began to cool and expand.

Before the big bang? No idea. Is the questio "What happened before the big bang" even the right thing to ask? No idea. I don't need a God of the Gaps for answers, I'd rather say "I don't know." than say I do know and be wrong.

The point is, I fail to see any intelligent design behind anything. We can explain how stars form, how galaxies and planets form we can explain a lot NATURALLY, without the need of a deity of any description. The things we don't know, we say we don't know and we try to find out, we don't need to make up gods and myths and fables to explain it, because they're just stories, they explain nothing to any degree of accuracy.

It's YOU making 2 assertions. You're both asserting that there was intelligence behind and AND that previously mentioned intelligence was Allah. I'm rejecting both statements.

If I were to assert that the universe always existed, you'd reject that. If I were to assert that there was intelligence behind it, and that intelligence was Homer Simpson, you'd also reject that, and in both instances you'd be right to unless I can provide evidence to back those statements up.

You're essentially saying "The universe exists, so it must've been made by Allah."

You have to provide evidence to your assertions, otherwise they're worthless.


I follow my lineage back, past my mother and father, past my grand parents, my great great great grandparents, and eventually I get to Homo Erectus. I go back further and I get to Homo Habilis. Further still and eventually I arrive at Homo Heidelbergensis. Then Australopithicus, then Ardipithicus, then through Great Apes, then Old World Moneys, then Euarchonta, then these mammals get smaller and more reptillian as time goes back until we arrive at mammal-like reptiles, or synapsids. Keep going back and we have reptiles, then amphibians, then fish, then Cnidarians, then sponges, then the cohanoflagellates, single celled organisms that can become multicellular, then the first simle eukaryotes (Cells with a cell wall), then beyond that lipids containing primitive genetic molecules, then just chemicals floating around an ocean.

I could go on right up until the big bang, and the difference between us? I can provide evidence for any one of those transitions.

You say "Science proves it's an intelligent force" and to refer to your earlier post, but I see no science, no reasoning, just blind assertions that you accept an automatic. Pseudoscientific at best.

[Cruorem_Deus]

At which stage does Allah come into play?

Did he cause the Big Bang?

How do you know this?

Because NO ONE knows what caused the big bang.

All you have is a book written by bronze age desert nomads and goat herders, and faith.

Faith is gullibility masquerading as a virtue - blind belief in that which is either unsupported by, or contradicted by, evidence.

[twoswordali]

You're missing the point entirely.

My position is "I do not know how the universe was formed.".

No one knows how the universe was formed

The point is, I fail to see any intelligent design behind anything. We can explain how stars form, how galaxies and planets form we can explain a lot NATURALLY, without the need of a deity of any description. The things we don't know, we say we don't know and we try to find out, we don't need to make up gods and myths and fables to explain it, because they're just stories, they explain nothing to any degree of accuracy.

If you fail to see intelligent design behind anything then you would fail as a human being to be intelligent.(think about that) We explain based off of our intelligent conclusion from studying a system that we know very little about. Yet we say forming which we can also say that the galaxies is being created as well. For something to form means that its taking some sort of shape shape, this is the excat thing as saying something is being created. A baker can form a chocalate cake ...he can also create a chocolate cake.

It is unintelligent to study elements and matter thats makes us intelligent and then turn around and say that there is no intelligence in its begining when or while its being created (formed). These elements and matter have a design that is clear as day, and you want me to accept that its not of intelligent design?

I can look at this whole universe and see that i didnot play a role in making any of it rather it made me. And i look at myself and see that i am a creator but everything that i use to create something im using something that was placed here that i had no role in designing. So im making designs from matter yet the question comes ..where did this matter come from? Now how can i get intelligence out of matter and create something out of matter but reject that this matter is of intelligent design and it "just happened"

It's YOU making 2 assertions. You're both asserting that there was intelligence behind and AND that previously mentioned intelligence was Allah. I'm rejecting both statements.

Thats fine you can reject that but you have yet to explain how there is no intellegence in it.

If I were to assert that the universe always existed, you'd reject that. If I were to assert that there was intelligence behind it, and that intelligence was Homer Simpson, you'd also reject that, and in both instances you'd be right to unless I can provide evidence to back those statements up.

You're essentially saying "The universe exists, so it must've been made by Allah."

You have to provide evidence to your assertions, otherwise they're worthless.

Your twisting my words i did not say that the universe eixists so it must be made by Allah, again i will say this The human being which goes through a process, of being created, which leads one to say ,who or what is the originator of this creation. Whatever it is, it must be highly intelligent, we say it is Allah, you say its nothing??
Just by studying us as human beings we didnt just come from nothing we was created (formed) from something and that something has to be the most intellegent being out there.

I follow my lineage back, past my mother and father, past my grand parents, my great great great grandparents, and eventually I get to Homo Erectus. I go back further and I get to Homo Habilis. Further still and eventually I arrive at Homo Heidelbergensis. Then Australopithicus, then Ardipithicus, then through Great Apes, then Old World Moneys, then Euarchonta, then these mammals get smaller and more reptillian as time goes back until we arrive at mammal-like reptiles, or synapsids. Keep going back and we have reptiles, then amphibians, then fish, then Cnidarians, then sponges, then the cohanoflagellates, single celled organisms that can become multicellular, then the first simle eukaryotes (Cells with a cell wall), then beyond that lipids containing primitive genetic molecules, then just chemicals floating around an ocean.
I could go on right up until the big bang, and the difference between us? I can provide evidence for any one of those transitions.

Yes show me how we come from apes and reptiles and we share no genetic structure of either one.

You say "Science proves it's an intelligent force" and to refer to your earlier post, but I see no science, no reasoning, just blind assertions that you accept an automatic. Pseudoscientific at best.

Then tell me how do scientist get so intelligent from studying the universe? It takes something for something to happen. In order to become smart you have to study something that makes you smart. In order to make a plane we studyied flying animals and we designed a plane, yet the bird can fly and move better than any plane. But the point is we studyied a design in order to make a design, but your saying that even the bird is not of design?? There is intelligence in everything to be studyied. Hence there is an intelligent force behin the forming behind the creating of the universe. And Allah also means the great originator of the universe and im very comfortable with that.

[twoswordali]

At which stage does Allah come into play?

Allah was always in ...never out

Did he cause the Big Bang?

if there was a big bang Allah created it

How do you know this?

I know this because everything i see is created (formed) from something and doesnt just exist it has a start.

Because NO ONE knows what caused the big bang.

and no one knows how we were formed yet you would get a book and tell me based off of faith that we came from and you dont have any solid proof that we came from sponges.

All you have is a book written by bronze age desert nomads and goat herders, and faith.

Wrong the book wasnt written by men, one man Muhammad was given the revelation, second your comment is condensending and a direct attack at being rude and not trying to dialog for peace. And the bronze age was way before the event of Muhammad, look up tubalcain in the bible if you read that.

Faith is gullibility masquerading as a virtue - blind belief in that which is either unsupported by, or contradicted by, evidence.

You have proven that you have faith in how we as human beings got here here is what you said....
follow my lineage back, past my mother and father, past my grand parents, my great great great grandparents, and eventually I get to Homo Erectus. I go back further and I get to Homo Habilis. Further still and eventually I arrive at Homo Heidelbergensis. Then Australopithicus, then Ardipithicus, then through Great Apes, then Old World Moneys, then Euarchonta, then these mammals get smaller and more reptillian as time goes back until we arrive at mammal-like reptiles, or synapsids. Keep going back and we have reptiles, then amphibians, then fish, then Cnidarians, then sponges, then the cohanoflagellates, single celled organisms that can become multicellular, then the first simle eukaryotes (Cells with a cell wall), then beyond that lipids containing primitive genetic molecules, then just chemicals floating around an ocean.

none of which you have seen with your eyes all of which you put complete faith in that whoever wrote that is telling you the truth. YOU didnt write it you read it and even the writer wasnt there he read and made an educated guess. Can you show me floating chemicals along with all that you describes comming together to make a human being? If all that you say is true then we could surely develop a human being from all that you have given as evidence. Truth of the matter is you faithfully believe in this, which is not a problem but you cant prove none of it nor have you seen any of it. Is it all intelligence that comes from some where ...yes it is you want to stop at the chemicals in the earth or the big bang and before that it was nothing. LOL HAHAHAHA how do you get a big bang something made a big bang.
Little kids are so innocent and intelligent, try droping something on a floor and let it make a big bang then tell a child that nothing made that noise.

[Cruorem_Deus]

No one knows how the universe was formed
If you fail to see intelligent design behind anything then you would fail as a human being to be intelligent.(think about that) We explain based off of our intelligent conclusion from studying a system that we know very little about. Yet we say forming which we can also say that the galaxies is being created as well. For something to form means that its taking some sort of shape shape, this is the excat thing as saying something is being created. A baker can form a chocalate cake ...he can also create a chocolate cake.

Ok, let me rephrase. I fail to see intelligent design in anything natural.

When a volcano erupts, and the molten rock flows, it forms into igneous rock. We don't say that the igneous rock was intelligently designed, do we? No, we say it's a natural process.

It is unintelligent to study elements and matter thats makes us intelligent and then turn around and say that there is no intelligence in its begining when or while its being created (formed). These elements and matter have a design that is clear as day, and you want me to accept that its not of intelligent design?

If it's unintelligent to study physics and say there's no aparent intelligent design to it, then you're saying to study and understand physic you have to say that there is intelligent deign. Really?

Show me ONE single published, peer-review paper that concludes that the laws (no moral laws, don't get that confused.) of physics were intelligently designed.

Oh, and from a reputable source, not some creationist journal - that is obviously trying to push its creationsit agenda.

I mean, if what you're claiming is even remotely accurate, then physics journals would be stock full of papers confirming the evidence for the existence of an intelligent designer.

I can look at this whole universe and see that i didnot play a role in making any of it rather it made me. And i look at myself and see that i am a creator but everything that i use to create something im using something that was placed here that i had no role in designing. So im making designs from matter yet the question comes ..where did this matter come from? Now how can i get intelligence out of matter and create something out of matter but reject that this matter is of intelligent design and it "just happened"
Thats fine you can reject that but you have yet to explain how there is no intellegence in it.
Your twisting my words i did not say that the universe eixists so it must be made by Allah, again i will say this The human being which goes through a process, of being created, which leads one to say ,who or what is the originator of this creation. Whatever it is, it must be highly intelligent, we say it is Allah, you say its nothing??
Just by studying us as human beings we didnt just come from nothing we was created (formed) from something and that something has to be the most intellegent being out there.
Yes show me how we come from apes and reptiles and we share no genetic structure of either one.
Then tell me how do scientist get so intelligent from studying the universe? It takes something for something to happen. In order to become smart you have to study something that makes you smart. In order to make a plane we studyied flying animals and we designed a plane, yet the bird can fly and move better than any plane. But the point is we studyied a design in order to make a design, but your saying that even the bird is not of design?? There is intelligence in everything to be studyied. Hence there is an intelligent force behin the forming behind the creating of the universe. And Allah also means the great originator of the universe and im very comfortable with that.

You're once again not getting what I'm saying. WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THE MATTER CAME FROM. To say that it was an intelligent designer is stupid, there's absolutely no empirical evidence to support that. You can't say "Everything is evidence, herp derp.", because how could you possibly falsify something like that? The entuire universe could be made out of jelly and ice cream and you could always use the exact same arguments. It's irrational. If we knew, do you think we'd be building massive particle accelerators spanning multiple countries?

Just don't be so arrogant as to assume you know - you don't. You don't know that there was a creator, you don't know that the universe is a creation and you don't know that it's Allah. There's absolutely no evidence to support that. Real evidence. There's also no possible way to falsify it.

You're assuming that everythign was created. Just saying it as if it's blatently obvious, yet there's clearly no evidence to support this, otherwise it'd've been published in a journal, and the person who published it would be up there with the likes of Darwin, Newton, Galileo, Pasteur or Einstein.

Two words - NATURAL PROCESS.

The bird is "not of design", as in, it wasn't consciously designed.

The wright brothers flew in 1903. We've been flying for little over 100 years.

Nature's had ~3.8 billion years.

The bird had a bit of a headstart.

It found a way to survive, and genetic mutation and natural selection expanded on those ways to survive. The more useful adaptations survived.

Absolutely no need or requirement for a god of the gapes.

Here's those two words, again, just incase you forgot them: NATURAL PROCESS.

And yes, we HAVE EVIDENCE in the form of Microraptor, and Archeopteryx, off the top of my head. There's more, though.

[Cruorem_Deus]

Also, about not sharing genetic structure with apes or reptiles? Haha.

Epic fail.

Epic, epic fail.

Our genomes (s and ape's) are almost identical. Not only that, but certain things about them can [i]ONLY[/] be the result of common ancestry.

Take the chromosomal fusion in human chromosome #2, for example.

Or the shared ERV markers in both human and chimp genomes.

Or shared mitochondrial DNA markers.

To say that we don't share any genetic structure with them only highlights how little you understand of either genetics or the process of evolution.