235 replies to this topic

[BurningLight]

Those are some good points. Maybe I should reconsider Ron Paul. My only concern is that I have serious doubts about Congress legislating many of the regulations that I think are deservedly in place, even if they represent an over extension of Executive power.

Asking me to choose between all these canidates is like asking me how do I want to die with an axe, knife or gun.

[the sad clown]

Unfortunately, Ron Paul doesn't seem to have much of a chance of getting the Republican nomination.

[BurningLight]

I think that America sees israel like their blessing from God. They believe if they bless israel God will bless them and if they turn their back and curse them, God will do the same to America. They use the Scripture to back this up, but there are many that feel it would be best to let israel completely fend for themsleves. America is actulaly in a catch 22 situation in regards to israel. The Jews own all the major garment centers in NY and all the major diamond exchanges so they have a lot of money and pull in America. You could almost say America is israel.

[Wanderer]

Unfortunately, Ron Paul doesn't seem to have much of a chance of getting the Republican nomination.

We're working on it. He's in a statistical tie for 1st in Iowa, and is in 2nd in New Hampshire. He's been steadily creeping up in the polls all season. One thing about him is that he loses very little support once he gains it. He has tremendous crossover appeal to Democrats and Independents that none of the other candidates can claim. Republicans love him on domestic and economic issues, but they seem to falter on his foreign policy. It seems, though, that the economy is a greater issue than the foreign policy for GOP caucus-goers and primary voters. The other thing that endears him, despite his foreign policy, is his consistent voting record that none can touch. His immense integrity in both his oath to the Constitution and his 54 year marriage with his wife attracts many in the Republican party, and may just be enough to push him over the top.

We'll see what happens come January.

[Wanderer]

I think that America sees israel like their blessing from God. They believe if they bless israel God will bless them and if they turn their back and curse them, God will do the same to America. They use the Scripture to back this up, but there are many that feel it would be best to let israel completely fend for themsleves. America is actulaly in a catch 22 situation in regards to israel. The Jews own all the major garment centers in NY and all the major diamond exchanges so they have a lot of money and pull in America. You could almost say America is israel.

israel seems like a sticky situation for the United States. We should simply treat them as any other country and not interfere in their internal affairs; likewise, we shouldn't tolerate any meddling they'd have in ours. If I remember right, Benjamin Netanyahu recently stated that israel doesn't need democracy because they already have it, israel doesn't need aid because they are a developed country, and israel doesn't need military support from the U.S. because they can defend themselves. I think it would be wise to simply honor the fact that another country wants to run its own affairs and deal with the consequences of its own actions.

America's founding fathers warned us about engaging in entangling alliances with other nations. I see israel as one such alliance. We should try to be friends with all nations and seek peace, commerce, and honest friendship. With regard to Biblical passages, what is called "israel" in Genesis is not necessarily the "state of israel" today.

[the sad clown]

Asking me to choose between all these canidates is like asking me how do I want to die with an axe, knife or gun.

That will always be the case with politics and voting (unless you run for office, I suppose there wouldn't be any qualms about voting for yourself).

I think that America sees israel like their blessing from God. They believe if they bless israel God will bless them and if they turn their back and curse them, God will do the same to America. They use the Scripture to back this up, but there are many that feel it would be best to let israel completely fend for themsleves. America is actulaly in a catch 22 situation in regards to israel. The Jews own all the major garment centers in NY and all the major diamond exchanges so they have a lot of money and pull in America. You could almost say America is israel.

I see israel like a foreign policy anchor around our necks, dragging us down. I think it is ridiculous to equate the modern state of israel with the covenantal people recording in the Old Testament, aside from being distant relations. Zionists do seem to have a strong lobby here in the US and lots of money from supporters, but it would never be possible without the religious zealotry of certain Protestant groups that see the state in terms of guaranteeing Jesus imminent return and the whole blessings bunk you mentioned.

[the sad clown]

We're working on it...We'll see what happens come January.

I wish you guys the best of luck. Since there likely won't be a Democratic primary, maybe I'll give you guys an extra vote in Texas.

We should try to be friends with all nations and seek peace, commerce, and honest friendship.

Agreed.

[mrhyder]

what is called "israel" in Genesis is not necessarily the "state of israel" today.

So what does 'israel' in Genesis interpreted as?

[SaracenSoldier]

I don't care what the motivation is if it helps people. And a dollar in Somalia helps a lot more than it will here in the U.S. Besides, do you really think the answer to politics being mixed with humanitarian aid is to cut humanitarian aid?

Excuse me for jumping in. Often the case is that it helps in the short term at the cost of the long term. Even in Somalia where is the money going? To the TFG which is only continuing the War and suffering of the Somalis. Even with UN "aid organizations" the country was being prevented from getting back on its feet. As you can read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&"]here[/url].

Just recently al-Shabaab banned many "aid" organizations because they were getting involved politically and even distributing expired food. Humanitarian aid is GREAT but when politics is involved it does more harm than good in most cases.

[the sad clown]

So what does 'israel' in Genesis interpreted as?

Jacob, and I suppose by extension, the descendents of Jacob. There is also the organizational principle of a covenant between these people and God

[the sad clown]

Excuse me for jumping in. Often the case is that it helps in the short term at the cost of the long term. Even in Somalia where is the money going? To the TFG which is only continuing the War and suffering of the Somalis. Even with UN "aid organizations" the country was being prevented from getting back on its feet. As you can read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&"]here[/url].

Al-Shabaab didn't seem interested in receiving aid (and they seem fond of expressing this disinterest with guns). I don't think you can really complain that famine assistance wasn't going to them. Besides, it isn't just money being given to the TFG.

Just recently al-Shabaab banned many "aid" organizations because they were getting involved politically and even distributing expired food. Humanitarian aid is GREAT but when politics is involved it does more harm than good in most cases.

Tell that to someone starving.

[mrhyder]

Jacob, and I suppose by extension, the descendents of Jacob. There is also the organizational principle of a covenant between these people and God

Thanks! SC. Some say; God blesses those who stand with the state of israel and curse those who curse it; are they misinterpreting it?.

[SaracenSoldier]

Al-Shabaab didn't seem interested in receiving aid (and they seem fond of expressing this disinterest with guns). I don't think you can really complain that famine assistance wasn't going to them. Besides, it isn't just money being given to the TFG.

Of course they wanted aid for the people. They allowed many orgs. to continue like one Muslim organization who just delivered and helped the people and did not get involved with handing out expired food or being involved politically. They were doing the best they can to help their people.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736900.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736900.html&[/url]

Tell that to someone starving.

Even if I was to give you that but the drought/famine is something that happened this year what about the years before?

Back in 2006 just as Somali farmers brought their grain harvest to market the WFP began the distribution of its entire years grain aid for Somalia. With thousands of tons of free grain available Somali farmers found it almost impossible to sell their harvest and faced disaster.

Thousands of angry Somali farmers gathered at WFP distribution centers across Somalia to protest, sometimes violently. In an attempt to calm matters the WFP promised an investigation which in due course announced that yes the WFP had done the Somali farmers wrong and promised they wouldn't do it again.

Then in 2007 just as the Somali grain harvest began to arrive in local markets the WFP once again distributed its entire years grain aid, only this time with the Ethiopian army there to protect it. With a four year long on and off again drought since afflicting most of Somalia you could say the WFP helped put the nail in the coffin of Somali agriculture.

Small wonder then why the Somali resistance, “The Youth”, Al Shabab, has since kicked the WFP out of most of southern Somalia that they control. It was only a couple of months ago that the WFP had cut the minimum survival food rations for the one million or more Somali refugees it had been feeding by 70% due to a “funding shortfall” yet today they would have us believe that they are desperately concerned for the survival of the Somali people suffering from the drought?

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=736642.html&[/url]

So you see it harms more than good. But my point wasn't just about Somalia. I am talking more broader. Just like the example of Egypt was given and many other countries around the world. The US gives aid to countries where the government eats it up. Even in Pakistan the money that was being poured into the country went into the pockets of government ministers and other people who have power with little to no help being given to the needy. Add to that the political side of it when the US wants to buy allegiances from certain parties and whatnot and it becomes a disaster.

Humanitarian aid is perfectly fine and should be encouraged but not when it is like it is now.

[the sad clown]

Of course they wanted aid for the people. They allowed many orgs. to continue like one Muslim organization who just delivered and helped the people and did not get involved with handing out expired food or being involved politically. They were doing the best they can to help their people.

And yet they ban UNICEF, the World Health Organisation, UNHCR, the Norwegian Refugee Council, the Danish Refugee Council, German Agency For Technical Co-operation (GTZ), Action Contre la Faim, Solidarity, Saacid and Concern, and the World Food Program. So, how is that working out?

Even if I was to give you that but the drought/famine is something that happened this year what about the years before?

I am sure the dying children in Somalia are just as concerned as you are about the geopolitical ramifications of food aid. If you want to get angry and ban the WFP, then ban them when people aren't dying. As for your broader point, I believe it was already an established point of agreement that military aid was not desired.

Humanitarian aid is perfectly fine and should be encouraged but not when it is like it is now.

I don't mind having such a discussion, but Al-Shabaab failed its people when it decided to restrict food aid. That is an uncontroversial statement and its facts are counted in the numbers of dead and starving. I know you are fond of Al-Shabaab, or at least you see them in a much more positive light than most, but I don't see how they can escape criticism on this one point.

I don't want to make this more harsh than it needs to be, because I do think you have a legitimate point about how aid is conducted, both by the United States and other organizations. I just think that perhaps Somalia is not the best example at this time.

[BurningLight]

That will always be the case with politics and voting (unless you run for office, I suppose there wouldn't be any qualms about voting for yourself).
I see israel like a foreign policy anchor around our necks, dragging us down. I think it is ridiculous to equate the modern state of israel with the covenantal people recording in the Old Testament, aside from being distant relations. Zionists do seem to have a strong lobby here in the US and lots of money from supporters, but it would never be possible without the religious zealotry of certain Protestant groups that see the state in terms of guaranteeing Jesus imminent return and the whole blessings bunk you mentioned.

You might see it that way, but it is not the way the leaders of the land in America see it. The do equate God's OT covenant with modern day israel as a covenant that God doesn't break. After all they are the descendants of the OT convenantal people group. History shows that whoever tried to wipe them out in the past got wiped out. They might think that israel is what hold them together as a nation before God.

Edited by BurningLight, 17 December 2011 - 04:54 AM.

[the sad clown]

You might see it that way, but it is not the way the leaders of the land in America see it. The do equate God's OT covenant with modern day israel as a covenant that God doesn't break. After all they are the descendants of the OT convenantal people group. History shows that whoever tried to wipe them out in the past got wiped out. They might think that israel is what hold them together as a nation before God.

I think the leaders of the land in America cynically take advantage of these naive beliefs held by many Protestants in order to stay in office. Yes, they are descendants, but the state of israel was not established on the basis of the covenant, but by a UN resolution led by the victorious Allied powers after WWII. And history shows no such thing. The Romans treated with them brutally at times, and went on for hundreds of years after that (tens of hundreds, if you consider that the Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire). And the United States held together before 1948. I haven't seen any improvement in American unity subsequently.

[Wanderer]

Speaking of Ron Paul, he's on Jay Leno right now.

[SaracenSoldier]

I understand your point. However, any good they might be doing far outweighs the bad. Are you seriously saying that people should be handed with expired, mouldy food? On another forum there were even pictures posted of warehouses of UN, etc where the food was shown to be expired and mouldy. I will try to search it up and post it here. And by them being political they are prolonging Somalia's conflict. You would not want that for your country. Why should they compromise the future and security of their country when they can get aid from other more friendly and less sinister sources? Such as Ummah welfare and many others who get less media attention. Add to this the fact that AS' policies from recent years did a lot of good for the Somali economy and according to al-Shabaab the crisis is being over blown in the western media so they can get their organizations into Somalia for political reasons.

In fact one of the major camps they opened for the displaced and needy, 'Ala Yasir'(I think that was the name) which received quiet a few media attention was recently closed because the situation improved:

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And yet they ban UNICEF, the World Health Organisation, UNHCR, the Norwegian Refugee Council, the Danish Refugee Council, German Agency For Technical Co-operation (GTZ), Action Contre la Faim, Solidarity, Saacid and Concern, and the World Food Program. So, how is that working out?

Clearly these organizations were not helping their people then. As I've already shown in the posts above. Recently they did ban about 15 or 16 agencies. Some of the reasons(not all) that they gave for this were:

- Working vigorously in partnership with several organisations in order to exploit the country of its natural resources.
- Acting as an impediment to the people’s ability to reach long term sustainability through the preservation and management of their natural resources in a self-determined manner.
- Amplifying the refugee crisis in the country and failing to implement durable solutions that satisfactorily resolve the suffering of internally displaced refugees.
- Promoting the fragmentation of the local population through the pursuance of tribal associations in their social interactions and partnerships.

Yo would not accept the above for your country so why should the Somali's accept it. And like this article said (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwalesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/12/13/terror-group-somalia-s-only-hope-for-peace-and-stability-91466-29942080/#ixzz1gkltoVv5"]here[/url] they are the only ones who can end this crisis. Problem is the West, including its so called 'aid organizations', are more interested in fighting AS rather than helping the needy.

[SaracenSoldier]

Speaking of Ron Paul, he's on Jay Leno right now.

Link to the video?

[Wanderer]

Link to the video?

Well it's playing on TV right now. I'll provide a link to the YouTube when it's posted online (Ron Paul supporters are rather quick when it comes to providing YouTube videos of Ron's media appearances). So far, he's doing exceptionally well.