42 replies to this topic

[SaracenSoldier]

[size=4]Muslim Scholars' statements about the Caliphate during the uprisings in 2011[using large font size is not allowed]

[Bodanyx]

well, you forget that this is the 21st century, and while muslim nations do share a bond, there cant be any domination and lack of democracy, cooperation has to replace empire, there should be a caliphate of economic cooperation not empirical caliphate.

[SaracenSoldier]

well, you forget that this is the 21st century, and while muslim nations do share a bond, there cant be any domination and lack of democracy, cooperation has to replace empire, there should be a caliphate of economic cooperation not empirical caliphate.

Why is that? Just because we are in the 21st century does not mean we abandon our religion. The Caliphate was and has always been an Islamic Empire uniting the Muslims in everything. One economy, One land, One army, One ruler. This was how the Prophet(saw) did it and this was how the Sahaba(ra) did it so who are we to change what the Prophet(saw) was sent with?

Unless of course you can provide evidence from the Quran or Sunnah to back up your claim. The only reason you've given is because its "the 21st century" and that in not good enough. And democracy is not an Islamic system. Allah has sent us with our own system. Democracy is made by man, made by non-Muslims and it is not compatible with Islam. In a democracy the power is for the people, their elected parliament can change laws, etc. Whereas in Islam the power belongs to Allah only and ONLY His LAW will rule.

And didn't you hear the hadith towards the end of the video? The Prophet(saw) has already told us the Caliphate will return. When the Mahdi comes do you think he will be sent to strengthen economic ties between Muslim countries? Or will he unite the Muslims and rule an Islamic Empire?

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "The Prophethood will be among you as long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then a khilafah on the model of Prophethood will prevail so long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then there will be a biting monarchy as long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then there will be an oppressive monarchy as long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then a Khilafah on the way of Prophethood will prevail and he kept silent." [Ahmed]

[Bodanyx]

Why is that? Just because we are in the 21st century does not mean we abandon our religion. The Caliphate was and has always been an Islamic Empire uniting the Muslims in everything. One economy, One land, One army, One ruler. This was how the Prophet(saw) did it and this was how the Sahaba(ra) did it so who are we to change what the Prophet(saw) was sent with?

Unless of course you can provide evidence from the Quran or Sunnah to back up your claim. The only reason you've given is because its "the 21st century" and that in not good enough. And democracy is not an Islamic system. Allah has sent us with our own system. Democracy is made by man, made by non-Muslims and it is not compatible with Islam. In a democracy the power is for the people, their elected parliament can change laws, etc. Whereas in Islam the power belongs to Allah only and ONLY His LAW will rule.

And didn't you hear the hadith towards the end of the video? The Prophet(saw) has already told us the Caliphate will return. When the Mahdi comes do you think he will be sent to strengthen economic ties between Muslim countries? Or will he unite the Muslims and rule an Islamic Empire?

i didnt say anything about abandoning religion, there should be a healthy dose of Islam, but governments should mix it with more progressive prospects like socialism and rights for workers, not just ethnocentrism like your suggesting. for example before napoleon came to egypt most men didnt have equal rights, it was a rich get everything poor get nothing, he destroyed the feudal system,while they had the quran to keep them comfortable they didnt know anything about equality and class rights, after he left they adopted some of his systems, and napoleon took some sharia law to france and his empire in europe, where it spread throughout the world.

as for one economy, one land, one army, this is a fairy tale idea, a joke, not in the next 300 years will we see all muslim nations together like this, its too idealistic. but it should be against the law for muslim nations to go to war with each other. i agree.

I said its the 21st century because it would look bad if lets say a country like turkey were to just take back syria and the middle east and restore the ottoman caliphate, imagine that, there would be uproar all over the world. there needs to be cooperation, not domination. learn from the germans, they dont just try and conquer, they cooperate. we need a middle east-asian union/islamic union, not another ottoman empire, follow the lead of the european union.

trying to fulfil the prophecy of mahdi? how will that help anything, the mahdi will come thousands of years from now, you cant simply try and build an Islamic empire in order to make the coming of the mahdi sooner, you sound like an evangelical christian.

[SaracenSoldier]

i didnt say anything about abandoning religion, there should be a healthy dose of Islam, but governments should mix it with more progressive prospects like socialism and rights for workers, not just ethnocentrism like your suggesting. for example before napoleon came to egypt most men didnt have equal rights, it was a rich get everything poor get nothing, he destroyed the feudal system,while they had the quran to keep them comfortable they didnt know anything about equality and class rights, after he left they adopted some of his systems, and napoleon took some sharia law to france and his empire in europe, where it spread throughout the world.

Assalamualikum

Well the Caliphate is a religious obligation. The model for an Islamic State is the one Run by the Prophet(saw) and the first four Caliphs. Not in Egypt during Napoleons time.. a time where the Islamic world was in decline.

as for one economy, one land, one army, this is a fairy tale idea, a joke, not in the next 300 years will we see all muslim nations together like this, its too idealistic. but it should be against the law for muslim nations to go to war with each other. i agree.

When it happens is not in our hands. What is in our hands is that we work for what is obligatory. A Caliphate is a requirement and something ordered in Islam. And we know its going to happen because the Prophet(saw) told us so we either be part of the revival and get reward for it or just stay on the sideline and watch others get the reward. Whether it happens tomorrow or in 500 years is up to Allah. But we have to show Him(swt) that we are working for his religion.

And inshAllah it's not something impossible, etc even the kuffar know its a very real possibility. Look at what they have said:


“Terrorists’ ultimate aim is to establish a caliphate (Khilafah) covering a region from Spain, across North Africa, through the Middle East and South Asia, all the way to Indonesia -and it wouldn’t stop there,” Sydney Morning Herald, US VP Richard Bruce “######” Cheney 1428-2-24 H

———————————————————–


” If we enhance the recruiting of this jihadist cause, there will be an attempt to re-establish the caliphate
(Khilafah),… the caliphate (Khilafah) that twice has gone all the way across the Pyrenees, up to the gates of
Vienna… I am concerned that it will be difficult for Europe to stand and that you will have a re-established
caliphate (Khilafah) sitting on 58 percent of the world’s oil.” US Lieutenant General William G. Boyk at Manna
Church for the graduation ceremony of Fayetteville Christian School in North Carolina US 1428-4-9 H

———————————————————–


“They see Iraq as the center of a new caliphate (Khilafah), from which they can stir extremism and violence
throughout the region” New York Times, US VP Richard Bruce “######” Cheney 1428-4-25 H

———————————————————–


“This caliphate (Khilafah) would be a totalitarian Islamic empire encompassing all current and former Muslim
lands, stretching from Europe to North Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia… They hope to establish a
violent political utopia across the Middle East, which they call caliphate (Khilafah), where all would be ruled
according to their hateful ideology.” George Walker Bush 1427-8-12 H

———————————————————–


” Iraq’s future will either embolden terrorists and expand their reach and ability to re-establish a caliphate
(Khilafah), or it will deal them a crippling blow ” New York Times reported about the statement of US
Undersecretary of Defense Eric S. Edelman speaking at Council on Foreign Relations 1426-12-11 H

———————————————————–


” They want to reestablish the Supreme Caliphate (Khilafah) . It’s in every writing that you ever want to look at it…
their goal is to start in Iraq, expand their Islamic caliphate (Khilafah) throughout the Middle East to Europe, and
ultimately across the entire world. ” US Lieutenant General Raymond T. Odierno, assistant to the chairman of the
joint chiefs of staff given talk at American Enterprise Institute 1426-12-18 H

———————————————————–


” They talk about wanting to re-establish what you could refer to as the seventh-century caliphate (Khilafah),…
governed by Sharia law, the most rigid interpretation of the Koran.” US VP Richard Bruce “######” Cheney at
Lake Elmo, Minnesota 1425-8-15 H

———————————————————–


“Do you really want to live in… a Stone Age Islamic caliphate (Khilafah) with no rights, no economy and no
future? I am confident the answer will be no.” The Independent, James Philip Rubin, was assistant US secretary

I said its the 21st century because it would look bad if lets say a country like turkey were to just take back syria and the middle east and restore the ottoman caliphate, imagine that, there would be uproar all over the world. there needs to be cooperation, not domination. learn from the germans, they dont just try and conquer, they cooperate. we need a middle east-asian union/islamic union, not another ottoman empire, follow the lead of the european union.

Is the uproar more important than re-establishing and uniting the Muslim ummah? Doesn't matter what the world says as long as that's what Allah wants from you.

trying to fulfil the prophecy of mahdi? how will that help anything, the mahdi will come thousands of years from now, you cant simply try and build an Islamic empire in order to make the coming of the mahdi sooner, you sound like an evangelical christian.

You understood me wrong. No one is trying to fulfill any prophecy. My point was that when the mahdi returns he will be the leader of Muslims. Do you think he will want to establish more economic ties or will he unite the Muslims in everything? Point being what he does is what Islam commands and so that's what our view should be. And you don't know when the mahdi will come. He can come next year.. maybe in 10 years maybe not only Allah knows.

[aj4u]

If a “Caliphate (Khilafah) " were from God it would have never fallen apart to begin with. Any government that is under God's rule would never fall apart if they are doing God's will. One of the reasons the USA was so successful is they established a government that matches what God is; for instance, The Bible shows that God is Supreme ruler or King of all; He is Judge; and He is law giver. That is where the USA got the idea of three branches of government. This government would never come to and end if they had stay faithful to God. As soon as American policy turns against israel as a nation, so will the USA go down. Right now America is holding on by a thread. Radical Islam is not just against Christian theology and America's support of israel they are against peaceful Muslims as well. The peaceful Muslim will be the last to find this out.
Many think that all Muslim are terrorist, but that is definitely not true, but in this century we live in most if not all terrorist have been Muslim. So if peaceful Muslim along with Christians don't non-violently fight against radical Islam, you too will be handed a one way ticket back to the 7th century which is not progress. Radical Islam will take you where you don't want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay and cost you more than you want to pay. Moreover, if it happens, it will be done through violence and it won't last just like it didn't in the past!

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Edited by aj4u, 27 October 2011 - 02:17 AM.

[SaracenSoldier]

If a “Caliphate (Khilafah) " were from God it would have never fallen apart to begin with. Any government that is under God's rule would never fall apart if they are doing God's will. One of the reasons the USA was so successful is they established a government that matches what God is; for instance, The Bible shows that God is Supreme ruler or King of all; He is Judge; and He is law giver. That is where the USA got the idea of three branches of government. This government would never come to and end if they had stay faithful to God. As soon as American policy turns against israel as a nation, so will the USA go down. Right now America is holding on by a thread. Radical Islam is not just against Christian theology and America's support of israel they are against peaceful Muslims as well. The peaceful Muslim will be

Firstly, victory and defeat are from Allah and he tests the believers with victory and defeat. Secondly, when the Caliphate fell it was corrupt with anti-Islamic activities and non-Islamic laws rampant across the Islamic world. So Allah punished us by taking away our unity and power. The United States?! Are you seriously saying that the US is supported by Allah? You mean the country that has(and promotes) homosexuality, abortion, interest, pornography, and I can go on and on. Look into your bible and see why the nations of the past were destroyed. Combine all those sins and you will see them all within the United States and you are saying the US is faithful to Allah and Allah is supporting them?


And we have already been told that our Caliphate would be gone but also that it will return:

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "The Prophethood will be among you as long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then a khilafah on the model of Prophethood will prevail so long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then there will be a biting monarchy as long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then there will be an oppressive monarchy as long as Allah wills, then he will eliminate it if he so wills. Then a Khilafah on the way of Prophethood will prevail and he kept silent." [Ahmed]

[Wesley]

Did you know the fall of the Caliph was prophecized?

[Teckni]

Salam.

Well Saracen, it seems they're just ignoring the hadith you put up.

[RAHIMI]

This government would never come to and end if they had stay faithful to God. As soon as American policy turns against israel as a nation, so will the USA go down. Right now America is holding on by a thread.

So to stay faithful to god, you have to obey every whims and fancies of israel? Is that what you are saying AJ4U, that israel = god?

[RAHIMI]

This government would never come to and end if they had stay faithful to God. As soon as American policy turns against israel as a nation, so will the USA go down. Right now America is holding on by a thread.

So to stay faithful to god, you have to obey every whims and fancies of israel? Is that what you are saying AJ4U, that israel = god?

[RAHIMI]

..

Edited by RAHIMI, 06 November 2011 - 02:12 PM.

[Abu Firdaws]

trying to fulfil the prophecy of mahdi? how will that help anything, the mahdi will come thousands of years from now, you cant simply try and build an Islamic empire in order to make the coming of the mahdi sooner, you sound like an evangelical christian.

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh,

Allaahu alam when Imam al-Mahdi will come, that is not something which we have knowledge of. We may look at the signs and conclude that the time of his arrival is near, but we do not know; and our actions should not be based upon the coming of al-Mahdi. There are some who believe that these uprising will bring about an Islamic State... if I'm honest I'm not as convinced as others, but Allaahu alam it could be setting the scene for it in the future -- Allaah knows best.

No doubt Imam al-Mahdi will rule according to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Edited by Abu Firdaws, 06 November 2011 - 07:48 PM.

[Abu Firdaws]

One of the reasons the USA was so successful is they established a government that matches what God is; for instance, The Bible shows that God is Supreme ruler or King of all; He is Judge; and He is law giver.

You must have an extremely twisted view of God then.

[Wesley]

This was written in 1873 by Baha'u'llah, who was imprisoned by the Ottoman Empire under the advisement of Vizier Pasha and the rule of Sultan Abdul-Aziz. Neither Ottoman ruler survived 3 years.

"O people of Constantinople! Lo, from your midst We hear the baleful hooting of the owl. Hath the
drunkenness of passion laid hold upon you, or is it that ye are sunk in heedlessness? O Spot that art situate on the shores of the two seas! The throne of tyranny hath, verily, been established upon thee, and the flame of hatred hath been kindled within thy bosom, in such wise that the Concourse on high and they who circle around the Exalted Throne have wailed and lamented. We behold in thee the foolish ruling over the wise, and darkness vaunting itself against the light. Thou art indeed filled with manifest pride. Hath thine outward splendour made thee vainglorious? By Him Who is the Lord of mankind! It shall soon perish, and thy daughters and thy widows and all the kindreds that dwell within thee shall lament. Thus informeth thee the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 52)

This is a history of the Ottoman Empire, notice the events which happened which lead to the eventual end of the Caliphate.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetnaqshbandi(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ottomans/history/1860.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetnaqshbandi(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ottomans/history/1860.htm[/url]

Any thoughts?

[Abu Firdaws]

This was written in 1873 by Baha'u'llah, who was imprisoned by the Ottoman Empire under the advisement of Vizier Pasha and the rule of Sultan Abdul-Aziz. Neither Ottoman ruler survived 3 years.

"O people of Constantinople! Lo, from your midst We hear the baleful hooting of the owl. Hath the
drunkenness of passion laid hold upon you, or is it that ye are sunk in heedlessness? O Spot that art situate on the shores of the two seas! The throne of tyranny hath, verily, been established upon thee, and the flame of hatred hath been kindled within thy bosom, in such wise that the Concourse on high and they who circle around the Exalted Throne have wailed and lamented. We behold in thee the foolish ruling over the wise, and darkness vaunting itself against the light. Thou art indeed filled with manifest pride. Hath thine outward splendour made thee vainglorious? By Him Who is the Lord of mankind! It shall soon perish, and thy daughters and thy widows and all the kindreds that dwell within thee shall lament. Thus informeth thee the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 52)

This is a history of the Ottoman Empire, notice the events which happened which lead to the eventual end of the Caliphate.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetnaqshbandi(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ottomans/history/1860.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetnaqshbandi(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ottomans/history/1860.htm[/url]

Any thoughts?

I'm not sure what your question is

[Wesley]

I was just mainly curious what your thoughts and opinions were. The writer of that "promise" was a prisoner of the Ottoman Empire who wasn't even charged of a crime. The writer promised, in 1873, that God and the angels are basically upset at the tyranny of the Ottoman Empire. The promise is the leaders will lose power and all the people of Constantinople (the head city of the Caliphate) will lament their loss.

In 1873, the empire was struck with a drought. In 1874, the empire was struck with major floods. In 1876, the Sultan Abdul-Aziz was removed from power and committed suicide (possibly killed). Within a generation, the Caliphate was no more and Constantinople was nothing more than a regional capitol.

How do you think a promise of a prisoner can come true?
Since the prisoner said the tyranny was not from God, was the Caliphate also not from God?
Who has the authority to lead a religion from God, such as Islam?

[Abu Firdaws]

I was just mainly curious what your thoughts and opinions were. The writer of that "promise" was a prisoner of the Ottoman Empire who wasn't even charged of a crime. The writer promised, in 1873, that God and the angels are basically upset at the tyranny of the Ottoman Empire. The promise is the leaders will lose power and all the people of Constantinople (the head city of the Caliphate) will lament their loss.

In 1873, the empire was struck with a drought. In 1874, the empire was struck with major floods. In 1876, the Sultan Abdul-Aziz was removed from power and committed suicide (possibly killed). Within a generation, the Caliphate was no more and Constantinople was nothing more than a regional capitol.

How do you think a promise of a prisoner can come true?
Since the prisoner said the tyranny was not from God, was the Caliphate also not from God?
Who has the authority to lead a religion from God, such as Islam?

I do not believe that it would be accurate for us to state that such and such "Caliphate" is a Caliphate from God... that would suggest that everything that they do is acceptable to God, and we know that that wasn't the case.

Any nation which does not rule in accordance to the Qur'an and the Sunnah and does not enjoin good and forbid evil is at risk of punishment from God.

I can promise you many things based on what the Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him told us; you have probably heard some of them already.

Edited by Abu Firdaws, 07 November 2011 - 02:45 PM.

[Wesley]

I do not believe that it would be accurate for us to state that such and such "Caliphate" is a Caliphate from God... that would suggest that everything that they do is acceptable to God, and we know that that wasn't the case.

Any nation which does not rule in accordance to the Qur'an and the Sunnah and does not enjoin good and forbid evil is at risk of punishment from God.

I can promise you many things based on what the Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him told us; you have probably heard some of them already.

Of course, any promise God makes has either come true or will come true. Makes you wonder what authority that prisoner had when he promised, from prison, an empire would fall at God's command. I don't think the Caliphate will ever come back, and if so, will be an entirely human creation with no authority. The reason being is that Islam is not unified in its application of religious law nor does the Qur'an stipulate who is an authorized interpreter of the Qur'an's verses.

[Abu Firdaws]

Of course, any promise God makes has either come true or will come true. Makes you wonder what authority that prisoner had when he promised, from prison, an empire would fall at God's command. I don't think the Caliphate will ever come back, and if so, will be an entirely human creation with no authority. The reason being is that Islam is not unified in its application of religious law nor does the Qur'an stipulate who is an authorized interpreter of the Qur'an's verses.

The Caliphate will return, whether or not you believe so is irrelevant as we believe in what Allaah and His Messenger peace be upon him have told us regarding this. And no one here follows Baha'u'llah; if you want to follow him and follow a different religion then that's up to you, but this is an Islamic forum.