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Help Me Understand This Plz


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#1 Youssie

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:09 PM

Salaam alaikoum brothers and sisters,
I had a discution with someone about Quran and he says that it had errors in it. i know it does not, but i just don't know how to explain to him, and was hoping that someone here inshallah can.

First 1:

How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?

Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days
But......

Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days

Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.


Second:

Quran 36: 40 It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

The Sun doesn't 'orbit' anything.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421
"Abzar do you know after setting where does Sun go?" I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle can say better. Then Prophet replied, "After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon Earth."

but the Sun doesn't go anywhere.



Thank you in advance.

#2 Younes

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:31 PM

As-salamu alaikum

The Earth was created in 6 days as it is explicitly stated many times in the Qur'an. The person who did the math is at fault.

"Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days."

What he didn't take into account is that some of these things happened simultaneously. For example, 2 days for the the Earth and the Heaven and 4 days for nourishment which amounts to six days. The Qur'an in those verses which mention 2 days, 4 days and 2 days speaks of the length of time.

The Sun does have an orbit in our galaxy. It isn't stationary.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

The Sun has its course under God's Throne. It isn't around the Earth. What the hadith you quoted means speaks of an unseen nature because the Sun literally doesn't prostrate. It means that the Sun ask God for God to function as our Sun. For example, the Qur'an says that the Sun, the Moon, the mountains and animals prostrate to God:

Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills. (22:18)

Literally it says prostrate in Arabic. This is obviously speaking of an unseen phenomena which we as humans cannot observe because nobody would suggest that mountains or trees in reality prostrate.

#3 Youssie

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:26 PM

As-salamu alaikum

The Earth was created in 6 days as it is explicitly stated many times in the Qur'an. The person who did the math is at fault.

"Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days."

What he didn't take into account is that some of these things happened simultaneously. For example, 2 days for the the Earth and the Heaven and 4 days for nourishment which amounts to six days. The Qur'an in those verses which mention 2 days, 4 days and 2 days speaks of the length of time.

The Sun does have an orbit in our galaxy. It isn't stationary.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

The Sun has its course under God's Throne. It isn't around the Earth. What the hadith you quoted means speaks of an unseen nature because the Sun literally doesn't prostrate. It means that the Sun ask God for God to function as our Sun. For example, the Qur'an says that the Sun, the Moon, the mountains and animals prostrate to God:

Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills. (22:18)

Literally it says prostrate in Arabic. This is obviously speaking of an unseen phenomena which we as humans cannot observe because nobody would suggest that mountains or trees in reality prostrate.


Salam alaikoum brother and thank you for the fast reply,

I understood your answers except this part:

The Sun has its course under God's Throne. It isn't around the Earth. What the hadith you quoted means speaks of an unseen nature because the Sun literally doesn't prostrate. It means that the Sun ask God for God to function as our Sun. For example, the Qur'an says that the Sun, the Moon, the mountains and animals prostrate to God.

What do you mean by this plz: The Sun has its course under God's Throne. It isn't around the Earth

Thank you and my Allah reward you with all what is good inshallah.

#4 Younes

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:29 PM

Salam alaikoum brother and thank you for the fast reply,
What do you mean by this plz: The Sun has its course under God's Throne. It isn't around the Earth


Wa alaikumu as-salam

It means that the Sun's course/orbit is under God's Throne. Does that help?

#5 the sad clown

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:03 PM

Wa alaikumu as-salam

It means that the Sun's course/orbit is under God's Throne. Does that help?

I think he was wondering what the "under" part meant. Is it physically under, or is this a metaphor for it being directed by God's authority or will?

#6 Younes

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:11 PM

I think he was wondering what the "under" part meant. Is it physically under, or is this a metaphor for it being directed by God's authority or will?


That's a good question. The Throne is real and physical, so it is not just a metaphor. The whole Heavens and the Earth are physically under the Throne, so I guess it is physically under.

#7 the sad clown

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:21 PM

That's a good question. The Throne is real and physical, so it is not just a metaphor. The whole Heavens and the Earth are physically under the Throne, so I guess it is physically under.

That is very interesting. This is the second thing I have discovered about Islam in a single day. By physically under, does that mean the center of the galaxy which our Sun revolves around, or does Islam ascribe an actual objective spatial orientation to the universe in which one direction is up and another down?

#8 Younes

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:25 PM

That is very interesting. This is the second thing I have discovered about Islam in a single day. By physically under, does that mean the center of the galaxy which our Sun revolves around, or does Islam ascribe an actual objective spatial orientation to the universe in which one direction is up and another down?


No, it isn't doesn't. All that is described is that God has a Throne and that the Heavens and the Earth are under it.

#9 the sad clown

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:42 PM

No, it isn't doesn't. All that is described is that God has a Throne and that the Heavens and the Earth are under it.

For for the Sun to be under God's throne, then God's throne has to be above it. And for one thing to be under and another thing to be above, then you have to have direction, an up and a down, for otherwise there is no way of knowing if the relationship isn't actually reversed. And since this passage is objectively true, then the directions this arrangement has established would also have to be objectively true, hence up and down are not subjective, but rather objective directions, a part of the very fabric of the universe. Unless I am misunderstanding something here. Hopefully you can help clear this up for me.

#10 Younes

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:20 PM

For for the Sun to be under God's throne, then God's throne has to be above it. And for one thing to be under and another thing to be above, then you have to have direction, an up and a down, for otherwise there is no way of knowing if the relationship isn't actually reversed. And since this passage is objectively true, then the directions this arrangement has established would also have to be objectively true, hence up and down are not subjective, but rather objective directions, a part of the very fabric of the universe. Unless I am misunderstanding something here. Hopefully you can help clear this up for me.


God's Throne is above the Sun so I guess the Sun is the point of reference. However, I am not entirely sure about the rest of your post. For example, we believe that there are seven heavens and each heaven wraps the other from all directions. I guess it all depends on the point of reference which in this case is God's Throne that is above everything.

#11 Youssie

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:56 PM

Wa alaikumu as-salam

It means that the Sun's course/orbit is under God's Throne. Does that help?


Not really brother and im sorry becouse maybe i did not explain it well.
I mean that After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh ? how can this be while the sun is visible to us all the time ?

thank you so much

#12 Younes

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:04 AM

Not really brother and im sorry becouse maybe i did not explain it well.
I mean that After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh ? how can this be while the sun is visible to us all the time ?

thank you so much


As-salamu alaikum

The Sun is in constant prostration:

Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills. (22:18)

#13 Youssie

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:51 AM

Thank you brother, i understand it but it will be hard to make an unbeliever to understand i think., but i will try.

thank you and peace be with you.

#14 BurningLight

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:09 AM

Thank you brother, i understand it but it will be hard to make an unbeliever to understand i think., but i will try.

thank you and peace be with you.

Can u activate your PM? I tried to do it but it doesn't work

#15 the sad clown

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:31 AM

Can u activate your PM? I tried to do it but it doesn't work

He won't be able to yet. There are restrictions on new accounts. You can read about it here: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=2081.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=2081.html&[/url]

#16 BurningLight

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 04:56 AM

He won't be able to yet. There are restrictions on new accounts. You can read about it here: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=2081.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=2081.html&[/url]

Thanks, I didn't realize that was the reason

#17 EasternQibla

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:50 PM

I was studying the ancient Jewish legends for signs of the hidden meanings of Solomon's temple, and read things which I remembered about Islam.

Anyway, here is what the Tabernacle (the tent in which was the ark of the covenant) represented:

Day 1-Hence the Tabernacle in its separate parts also corresponded to the heaven and the earth, that had been created on the first day.

Day 2-As the firmament had been created on the second day to divide the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above, so there was a curtain in the Tabernacle to divide between the holy and the most holy.

Day 3-As God created the great sea on the third say, so did He appoint the laver in the sanctuary to symbolize it, and as He had on that day destined the plant kingdom as nourishment for man, so did He now require a table with bread in the Tabernacle.

Day 4-The candlestick in the Tabernacle corresponded to the two luminous bodies, the sun and the moon, created on the fourth day; and the seven branches of the candlestick corresponded to the seven planets, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, the Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars.

Day 5-Corresponding to the birds created on the fifth day, the Tabernacle contained the Cherubim, that had wings like birds.

Day 6-On the sixth, the last day of creation, man had been created in the image of God to glorify his Creator, and likewise was the high priest anointed to minister in the Tabernacle before the Lord and Creator.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsacred-texts(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jud/loj/loj304.htm"]The Legends of the Jews, By Louis Ginzberg, vol 3, ch 2:THE INSTALLATION OF ELDERS[/url], section "THE ERECTION OF THE TABERNACLE COMMANDED" (it's at the very end; I inserted 'Day #-' for ease of reading here)


From this the Quranic account quoted at the start fits in well. There is additional material:

41:11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
In front of the curtain was the altar of incense, thereby producing smoke in-front of the curtain, "as smoke". (Exdodus 40:26, "He put the gold altar in the tabernacle of meeting in front of the veil (curtain); and he burned sweet incense on it")

The seven heavens and seven earths probably correspond respectively to the steps going from the main temple through the curtain into the Holy of Holies, and the steps going into the temple from the outside. See the picture in wikipedia, (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Solomon%27s_temple#Architectural_description"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Solomon%27s_t...ral_description[/url]

From this we can deduce that whenever anything to do with the sky/'outer space' or the earth is mentioned we have to think carefully if it refers to the world we see around us or to the tabernacle and/or temple!!! In other words, if we find bizarre things described then it probably refers to the temple symbolism, for example:

"and after that He spread out the earth: He made it flat, for it had been created before the heaven, but without having been spread out"; (Tafsīr al-Jalālayn on [79:30]): well of course the earth is flat - what else do you expect a floor to be like? (i.e. floor of tabernacle/temple!)

"Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. "( Bible, Isaiah 40:22): er, the tabernacle was a tent, with the top fabric being deep blue, like the sky!

It all becomes very simple:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421
"Abzar do you know after setting where does Sun go?" I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle can say better. Then Prophet replied, "After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon Earth."


(For non-Muslims, Aro’sh is the Throne, and I think Qeyamot is the Last Judgment.)

The sun refers to the seven branched lamp-stand, but also probably any lamp. The other lamps were put out at night, which is probably all that is referred to by "After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh" and the rising in the east to the lamps being lit again; the entrance to the temple was in the east.

So once it is realised how deep this symbolism is, and how seamlessly integrated into the Bible/legends/Quran/hadith/commentaries a lot of things start to make sense!

Richard
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#18 AHMAD_73

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 03:07 PM

That is very interesting. This is the second thing I have discovered about Islam in a single day. By physically under, does that mean the center of the galaxy which our Sun revolves around, or does Islam ascribe an actual objective spatial orientation to the universe in which one direction is up and another down?


although it's not totally perceived yet, while it's not impossible from relative motions point of view. while we (science) didn't reach a final model of the universe yet, to prove or not this point. when i tried to find how the universe is expanding i found many different models one along over the surface of a ball, another is just as enlarged circles on the same level , another as enlarged circles on different levels an a conical manner.

while if we are (the inertial/absolute stationary frame), and we are monitoring a moving train to the right with respect to the rail way frame, while the rail way frame is moving to the left with respect to the inertial frame, then we will see that train as stationary object.

the Quran as long as the previous scriptures are talking about "7" skies/overhead different ceils, no one yet reached to got that. while wht we may say now, the sun is revolving around its axis while it and the sun group are rotating around the Galaxy center in an complicated spiral motion. the whole Galaxy is doing the same with respect to some thing else,.......

if the sun is performing many complicated motions alone and along with different frames, it stell could be stationary with respect to the inertial frame.

Allah knows best

#19 Yateem

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:14 AM

A list of great questions and great dialogue. In regards to the Sun being 'physically' under Allah (SWT) or under his 'Control'....I believe it definitely means that it is under his 'control' because everything is under His control. However, it may very likely mean both.

#20 the sad clown

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:58 PM

A list of great questions and great dialogue. In regards to the Sun being 'physically' under Allah (SWT) or under his 'Control'....I believe it definitely means that it is under his 'control' because everything is under His control. However, it may very likely mean both.

I suppose this is one of those matters that is open to interpretation? Some have said it is physical, and you have suggested that a metaphorical reading is acceptable.