29 replies to this topic

[BurningLight]

I believe god's true word can never been corrupted. It is not possible for man to be stronger than god. Biblical scholars know all the translational errors or interpolations in the Bible, and there are thousands of copies to compare and contrast. Most of the translation difficulties have proven to be negligible.
As for the Bible, we can also look up the words in the original language Hebrew/ Greek/ (Aramaic?) ourselves and come to our conclusion of what it means. No copies were ever destroyed. Can that also be said of the Quran?
It says in the Bible that god established His word in heaven forever. I believe this, but do Muslims actually believe that man's power to corrupt god's word is greater than god's ability to preserve it? God's word was written way before Muhammad was born. If god couldn't protect His word before Muhammad was born, why should I believe He could protect it after Muhammad's birth? These are the things that send up red flags and keep me from identifying with Islam.

Edited by BurningLight, 03 December 2011 - 10:59 PM.

[SaracenSoldier]

I will let others who are more knowledgeable answer most of you queries. However, I will say that the Quran has not changed at all. It is the same down to the letter, down to how to pronounce each letter that was revealed by God to prophet Muhammad(saw).

Watch this: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=CjlgPR_z328"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=CjlgPR_z328[/url]

[BurningLight]

I will let others who are more knowledgeable answer most of you queries. However, I will say that the Quran has not changed at all. It is the same down to the letter, down to how to pronounce each letter that was revealed by God to prophet Muhammad(saw).

Watch this: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=CjlgPR_z328"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=CjlgPR_z328[/url]

Thank for sharing that. I have seen that guy before. He is from my neighborhood in New York, Brooklyn. He explains that we can throw all our books into the ocean all Christians wouldn't be able to produce another Bible, but how does he know that. There are people with photographic memories that have memorized telephone directories just for the fun of it. How does he know if there isn't a couple or a few out ot the billions of Christians that haven't memorized the Bible.
Even I have the primary message of the Bible not only memorized but engraved in my heart. IOW, I appreciate your attempt to explain, but it doesn't come close to addressing my personal issue or questions. As I mentioned, I believe god's true word can never been corrupted. It's not possible for man to be stronger than god. The Bible says that God established His word in heaven forever. I believe this, but you didn't answer my question. Do Muslims actually believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than god's ability to preserve it? God's word was written way before Muhammad was born. If god couldn't protect His word before Muhammad was born, why should I believe He could protect it after Muhammad's birth? Please answer the questions. I am looking for your answer not someone more knowledgable since you were the first to respond. Thanks.

[Younes]

I believe god's true word can never been corrupted. It is not possible for man to be stronger than god. Biblical scholars know all the translational errors or interpolations in the Bible, and there are thousands of copies to compare and contrast. Most of the translation difficulties have proven to be negligible.
As for the Bible, we can also look up the words in the original language Hebrew/ Greek/ (Aramaic?) ourselves and come to our conclusion of what it means. No copies were ever destroyed. Can that also be said of the Quran?
It says in the Bible that god established His word in heaven forever. I believe this, but do Muslims actually believe that man's power to corrupt god's word is greater than god's ability to preserve it? God's word was written way before Muhammad was born. If god couldn't protect His word before Muhammad was born, why should I believe He could protect it after Muhammad's birth? These are the things that send up red flags and keep me from identifying with Islam.

There's a lot of false information there. First of all, copies were destroyed. Do a search on the Masoretes. They used to destroy manuscripts.

Secondly, (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Lost_books_of_the_Old_Testament"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Lost_books_of_the_Old_Testament[/url]

[Younes]

I believe god's true word can never been corrupted. It is not possible for man to be stronger than god. Biblical scholars know all the translational errors or interpolations in the Bible, and there are thousands of copies to compare and contrast.

Yet these interpolations and translational errors remain in the Bibles printed out today due to popular demand, making your point quite moot.

[Mercyonmankind]

You can't say that God is weak for not preventing man from hiding His words. As God said He does whatever He wills.
You are saying that God's word is established in Heaven forever, which I agree with. However, He didn't prevented man kind from hiding the true message. You can argue here again why He didn't prevented man kind? Well I will say it again, God does what He wills, He will not be questioned, but we will be questioned.

We can't say that man has power to corrupt the words of God, but the true message of God can be hidden by man by the permission of God as God said in the verse below.

[5.15] People of the Book! Our Messenger (Muhammad) has come to clarify to you much of what you have hidden of the Book, and to forgive you much. A light has come to you from Allah and a Clear Book,

God has send a final messenger to inform the community that the true message has been concealed from them by those who wish to gain pleasures of this world. Well we can think of it as this was the part of the God plans. God knew that His message would be concealed, but man kind forgot who is the best of the Planner. When the time came to complete His Favours on man kind God send the final messenger with a book which He promised to protect till the end time. If God didn't protect this book "Quran" until the end time, how would we know what's the true message and what's not?
Do you think it would be right for God to send us to hell by allowing man kind to also hide his final confirmation which is "Quran"?


Lastly, you shouldn't have these doubts that how can man have power to corrupt the words of God, these doubts are from the devil. You have to remember one thing, we only exist today, its because the Wills of God.
And as said by someone " The pen has been lifted and the pages have dried", everything has been pre-ordained just like a completed script, and now the actors have started performing the scenes.

Edited by Mercyonmankind, 04 December 2011 - 05:20 AM.

[BurningLight]

There's a lot of false information there. First of all, copies were destroyed. Do a search on the Masoretes. They used to destroy manuscripts.

Secondly, (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Lost_books_of_the_Old_Testament"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Lost_books_of_the_Old_Testament[/url]

"The Masoretes devised the vowel notation system for Hebrew that is still widely used, as well as the trope symbols used for cantillation." This was done during the 7th and 8th century. Christians and Jews have copies of the Scriptures that date back way before the 7th century. BTW, none of the Biblical text or manuscripts were destroyed by burning. Jews and Christians still have access to copies as they were before they were touched by the Masoretes. Do you know of any original copies of the Quran are in exsistence before they were burned by Uthman 20 years after Muhammad's death I believe? There might be missing manuscripts from before the 7th century, but this doesn't spell corruption of what does exist or of what we have today.
Besides, you are not addressing the main issues of this thread with your comment!
Thanks for trying though
Peace be unto you

Edited by BurningLight, 04 December 2011 - 05:37 AM.

[Younes]

"The Masoretes devised the vowel notation system for Hebrew that is still widely used, as well as the trope symbols used for cantillation." This was done during the 7th and 8th century. Christians and Jews have copies of the Scriptures that date back way before the 7th century. BTW, none of the Biblical text or manuscripts were destroyed by burning. Jews and Christians still have access to copies as they were before they were touched by the Masoretes. Do you know of any original copies of the Quran are in exsistence before they were burned by Uthman 20 years after Muhammad's death I believe? There might be missing manuscripts from before the 7th century, but this doesn't spell corruption of what does exist or of what we have today.
Besides, you are not addressing the main issues of this thread with your comment!
Thanks for trying though
Peace be unto you

Your post just goes on to show that you know nothing of the Masoretes. The Masoretes were the Jews who established the text of the Hebrew Bible and they used to destroy manuscripts, whether they burned them or disposed of them in another manner is highly inconsequential. The reason why the only complete, full version (the Leningrad codex) of the Hebrew Bible dates from the 11th century is because the Masoretes/the Jews used to destroy manuscripts. If you still have (full) copies of the Hebrew Bible (in Hebrew) that predate the Leningrad codex, then I would guess that you wouldn't have problem pointing them out to us. If you are going to say "the Dead Sea Scrolls", then don't bother. "Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest existing manuscripts of parts of the Hebrew Bible came from about 800-1,000 A.D" If you are Protestant, then the Bible you are using is based on the text established by the Masoretes. Read a bit more on the Masoretes than that short wiki article from which you took that quote.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdeadseascrollsfoundation(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdeadseascrollsfoundation(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/[/url]

Do you know of any original copies of the Torah before it was established by Josiah? Do you know of any original copies of the Torah before it was established by the men of the Great Assembly? Do you know of any original copies of the Torah before it was burned by Ahaz? I am going to guess that you don't. By the way, the Uthmanic manuscript is based on the original. It was copied from the original.

I am directly addressing the main issues of this thread. You are the one who doesn't want to address the main issues like the lost books of the Bible. No wonder why. God's word was written way before Jesus was born. If god couldn't protect His word (the lost books mentioned in the Bible) before Jesus was born, why should I believe He could protect it after Jesus's birth?

[EasternQibla]

I will say that the Quran has not changed at all. It is the same down to the letter, down to how to pronounce each letter that was revealed by God to prophet Muhammad(saw).

Now this confuses me. How can you say that the Quran is the same down to the pronunciation of each letter when there are different qiraats?
Examples in the the existing manuscripts/records of recitations:

1) different vowels points, so letters can be pronounced differently
2) different consonants, including minor consonantal differences between the manuscripts
3) words and phrases inserted or removed.

I was told that all these form one Quran from Allaah. While I did not challenge this at the time, it sounds even stranger than the traditional teaching on the Trinity. At least when talking about Allaah we can expect things to be beyond our comprehension, but why claim that there is only one text of the Quran with precise pronunciation/vowel points when clear differences exits? Many variant consonants etc are one??!?


Richard

[Younes]

Now this confuses me. How can you say that the Quran is the same down to the pronunciation of each letter when there are different qiraats?
Examples in the the existing manuscripts/records of recitations:

1) different vowels points, so letters can be pronounced differently
2) different consonants, including minor consonantal differences between the manuscripts
3) words and phrases inserted or removed.

I was told that all these form one Quran from Allaah. While I did not challenge this at the time, it sounds even stranger than the traditional teaching on the Trinity. At least when talking about Allaah we can expect things to be beyond our comprehension, but why claim that there is only one text of the Quran with precise pronunciation/vowel points when clear differences exits? Many variant consonants etc are one??!?


Richard

The Qur'an was sent down in seven modes unlike the other Books.

[EasternQibla]

The Qur'an was sent down in seven modes unlike the other Books.

So consonantal differences in the existing manuscripts of the Quran are merely evidence of one of he 7 modes, rather than human forgetfulness in recitation?

"I will say that the Quran has not changed at all. It is the same down to the letter, down to how to pronounce each letter that was revealed by God to prophet Muhammad(saw)."
So this isn't quite true: there are 7 different ways to pronounce each letter, even if some letters are missing or inserted?

This is what I don't get.

Richard

[Younes]

So consonantal differences in the existing manuscripts of the Quran are merely evidence of one of he 7 modes, rather than human forgetfulness in recitation?

Yes.

"I will say that the Quran has not changed at all. It is the same down to the letter, down to how to pronounce each letter that was revealed by God to prophet Muhammad(saw)."
So this isn't quite true: there are 7 different ways to pronounce each letter, even if some letters are missing or inserted?

No, it is true. There aren't seven different ways to pronounce each letter. The letters are pronounced the same. There are seven different modes. I gave you examples in that other thread of differences in Qira'at.

[EasternQibla]

There aren't seven different ways to pronounce each letter. The letters are pronounced the same. There are seven different modes. I gave you examples in that other thread of differences in Qira'at.

Thank you, yes I am aware of the other topic, but I still have problems, and seeing someone imply that the Quran has only one mode of recitation sounded strange. I left it as it was in the other topic as to me it seemed just incomprehensible.

What about phrases being inserted/removed? You may believe that it is all one Quran, but there must be something I am not understanding: to me differences in consonants imply variant readings of human origin. So all differences in the consonants - including phrases inserted or removed - originated with Muhammad (God rest his soul)?

Richard

[EasternQibla]

If I can clarify where I am coming from. Many years ago I was given a book by a Muslim friend, which said the following:

The Quran, on the other hand, exists exactly as it was revealed to the Prophet; not a word -- nay, not a syllable of it -- has been changed. It is available in its original text and the word of God has been preserved for all time.


"Towards Understanding Islam", by ABUL A'LA Mawdudi, page 75, also online
(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetymsite(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/books/tui/chp4.html#Faith%20in%20the%20Books%20of%20God"]Chapter 4, Faith in the Books of God[/url]

To my mind saying "not a syllable of it" denies the possibility of differing consonants etc. And this Muslim friend agreed that there were variant vowel points, but that there was not one consonantal difference. (A different Muslim I spoke to did not even know of different vowel points, and was very disturbed to find that out - he had heard the Quran recited with different vowels which changed the meaning, something like 'lameston' or 'limeston': forbidden to touch a woman, or only forbidden to have sexual relations with her? Perhaps you know the reference?)

So we are being told that not one syllable has changed, yet there are differing consonants?!? I find it dishonest to claim that not one syllable has changed when there are clear variants. Perhaps better to claim: "differing syllables exist, but somehow it is all the same". More honest, but lacking in weight I must admit.

When I first heard that not one consonant was different in the manuscripts/recitations I was openly shocked and surprised. Then I found out some of the differences, and felt betrayed by Islaam. A miracle that is not a miracle ...

Richard

PS. Just trying to understand ...

[Younes]

Thank you, yes I am aware of the other topic, but I still have problems, and seeing someone imply that the Quran has only one mode of recitation sounded strange. I left it as it was in the other topic as to me it seemed just incomprehensible.

What about phrases being inserted/removed? You may believe that it is all one Quran, but there must be something I am not understanding: to me differences in consonants imply variant readings of human origin. So all differences in the consonants - including phrases inserted or removed - originated with Muhammad (God rest his soul)?

The differences in consonants in the Qir'at originated from Muhammad (pbuh). For example,

"In chapter 3, verse 13, in one reading it says: " They saw them with their own eyes twice their number. And Allah supports with His aid whom He wills. Verily, in this is a lesson for those who understand" while in the other it says "You saw them....". This refers to the battle of Badr. God made the Muslims appear twice as much to the Pagan Quraish, that's why it says they, i.e. the Pagan Quraish, in the first reading. The second reading addresses the believers when it says you, i.e. the believers. This is an example of a consonantal difference, by the way. Plus this fact is referred to in an other part of the Qur'an: "And (remember) when you met, He showed them to you as few in your eyes and He made you appear as few in their eyes." (8:44)."

I don't know excactly what you mean by phrases being inserted/removed. To address that, you would have to be more specific.

[Younes]

So we are being told that not one syllable has changed, yet there are differing consonants?!? I find it dishonest to claim that not one syllable has changed when there are clear variants. Perhaps better to claim: "differing syllables exist, but somehow it is all the same". More honest, but lacking in weight I must admit.

Well saying "somehow it is all the same" might be what you would say. However, the correct thing is to say that there are multiple (versus differing which implies uncertainty) Qira'at/readings and they all originated from the Prophet (pbuh). He taught the Qur'an in seven different modes. I already gave you some examples in that other thread. There is nothing dishonest about what you quoted. What it means is that Muslims were meticulous in preserving everything down to the last syllable - in fact it goes beyond that. The reason why you hear of multiple consonants and vowels is that they have been preserved for 1400 years throughout Islam's history. Muslims didn't hide anything. They were since the beggining and still are very meticulous in preserving the multiple readings.

[EasternQibla]

Well saying "somehow it is all the same" might be what you would say. However, the correct thing is to say that there are multiple (versus differing which implies uncertainty) Qira'at/readings and they all originated from the Prophet (pbuh). He taught the Qur'an in seven different modes. I already gave you some examples in that other thread. There is nothing dishonest about what you quoted. What it means is that Muslims were meticulous in preserving everything down to the last syllable - in fact it goes beyond that. The reason why you hear of multiple consonants and vowels is that they have been preserved for 1400 years throughout Islam's history. Muslims didn't hide anything. They were since the beggining and still are very meticulous in preserving the multiple readings.

I THINK I GET IT!!!

There are multiple readings/recitations for some ayat, and all these originated with Muhammad (God rest his soul) and have all been preserved. This is what is meant by even all the syllables have been preserved.

This however is not quite the miracle Islam seemed to promise. So the Muslim who believed that there were no multiple consonantal readings misunderstood the nature of the Quranic preservation-miracle?

Richard

[EasternQibla]

I believe god's true word can never been corrupted. It is not possible for man to be stronger than god.

Man is not stronger than God, but God does not care for books. If he did, then the state of the manuscripts of the Bible would be identical - as indeed for the Quran, which they aren't.

God cares about people not books. Christians should be looking unto Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith, not a book about him, even if that book claims to be inspired of God.

The Christian faith is not based on books, but on the Holy Spirit (the very Presence of God) within us ...

Richard

Edited by EasternQibla, 06 December 2011 - 12:53 PM.

[EasternQibla]

I don't know excactly what you mean by phrases being inserted/removed. To address that, you would have to be more specific.

Because I like to be oraganised, I placed my reply in an existing topic more suited to a discussion of the Quran rather than the Bible:

from a different topic which really should be here:

Please follow the link!

Richard

[Younes]

This however is not quite the miracle Islam seemed to promise. So the Muslim who believed that there were no multiple consonantal readings misunderstood the nature of the Quranic preservation-miracle?

I haven't claimed that the preservation of the Qur'an is a miracle. But yes, those who believe that there are not multiple consonantal readings don't have full knowledge of the Qur'an and its text.