29 replies to this topic

[BurningLight]

I am directly addressing the main issues of this thread. You are the one who doesn't want to address the main issues like the lost books of the Bible. No wonder why. God's word was written way before Jesus was born. If god couldn't protect His word (the lost books mentioned in the Bible) before Jesus was born, why should I believe He could protect it after Jesus's birth?

lol, you reversed what I said on me, but you didn't really, because it is something to ask ourselves. If God couldn't preserve His word through man before Christ, (You are correct) why should we trust it after Christ? That is a true statemnet and I agree, but you are only looking at questioning the preservation of GOD'S WORD shortly after Christ! I take it even futher than you. I take it to date! This is the issue I am trying to address!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now it is my contention that Man is not stronger than GOD. It is my contention that man's ability to lose, burn, destroy or hide God's word is not stronger than GOD'S power to preserve His word starting from day one. It is my contention that GOD ALMIGHTY will not give one message that He says is established forever in heaven then completely give another contradicting message claiming that to be HIS WORD! This is spiritually logical to me and makes sense. btw, interesting website link you sent Thanks.

Edited by BurningLight, 06 December 2011 - 05:05 PM.

[EasternQibla]

I haven't claimed that the preservation of the Qur'an is a miracle. But yes, those who believe that there are not multiple consonantal readings don't have full knowledge of the Qur'an and its text.

Ahhhh!! Thank you.

I think about songs I heard years ago and can still remember them. A more organised and group effort could succeed. That could be why most of the differences are of the type expected by misremembering, although you would say that they all were recited originally by Muhammad (God rest his soul).

Richard

[Younes]

lol, you reversed what I said on me, but you didn't really, because it is something to ask ourselves. If God couldn't preserve His word through man before Christ, (You are correct) why should we trust it after Christ? That is a true statemnet and I agree, but you are only looking at questioning the preservation of GOD'S WORD shortly after Christ! I take it even futher than you. I take it to date! This is the issue I am trying to address!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now it is my contention that Man is not stronger than GOD. It is my contention that man's ability to lose, burn, destroy or hide God's word is not stronger than GOD'S power to preserve His word starting from day one. It is my contention that GOD ALMIGHTY will not give one message that He says is established forever in heaven then completely give another contradicting message claiming that to be HIS WORD! This is spiritually logical to me and makes sense. btw, interesting website link you sent Thanks.

Actually in this thread I am not questioning the preservation of God's Word shortly after Christ. Had you read the link concerning the lost books of the Old Testament, you would know this. Jesus (pbuh) doesn't even enter the picture, really. If it is your contention that man's ability to lose, burn, destroy or hide God's Word is not stronger than God's power to preserve it, then what do we make of the lost books that are referenced in the Bible (Old Testament)? Feel free to read that link and respond. Or I'll just copy the list here:

The Book of Jasher (whose title fully translated means the Book of the Upright or the Book of the Just) is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18. From the context in the Book of Samuel it is implied that it was a collection of poetry. Several books have claimed to be this lost text, but are widely discounted as pseudepigrapha.
The Book of the Wars of the Lord.[1] Referenced at Numbers 21:14.
A "Book of Songs" is referenced at 1 Kings 8:12-13 (Septuagint).
The Chronicles of the Kings of israel (lost/missing) and Chronicles of the Kings of Judah ("2 Chronicles" in the Christian Old Testament or "Divrei Hayamim II" in the Hebrew Tanakh) are mentioned in the Books of Kings (1 Kings 14:19, 14:29). They are said to tell of events during the reigns of Kings Jeroboam of israel and Rehoboam of Judah, respectively. The Chronicles of the Kings of israel is again mentioned in 1 Kings 16:20 regarding King Zimri, and many other times throughout 1 and 2 Kings.
"The Book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the Seer" (also called Story of the Prophet Iddo or The Annuals of the Prophet Iddo) is mentioned in the book of 2nd Chronicles. (II Chr 9:29, 12:15, 13:22). Iddo was a seer who lived during the reigns of Solomon, Rehoboam, and Abijah. His deeds were recorded in this book, which has been completely lost to history, save for its title. However, it is interesting to note that Zechariah was the son of Iddo (Ezra 5:1, Zechariah 1:1)
The Manner of the Kingdom[2]
Referenced at 1Samuel 10:25.
The Acts of Solomon[3]
Referenced at 1Kings 11:41.
The Annals of King David[4]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 27:24.
The Book of Samuel the Seer Also called Samuel the Seer or The Acts of Samuel the Seer, which could be the same as 1 & 2 Samuel .[6]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 29:29.
The Book of Nathan the Prophet Also called Nathan the Prophet or The Acts of Nathan the Prophet or History of Nathan the Prophet[5]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 29:29, and also 2Chronicles 9:29.
The Book of Gad the Seer[6]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 29:29.
The Prophecy of Ahijah[7], might be a reference to 1 Kings 14:2-18.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 9:29.
The Book of the Kings of Judah and israel[8]
Referenced in 2Chronicles 16:11, 2Chronicles 27:7 and 2Chronicles 32:32. Might be the same as 1 & 2 Kings.
The Book of Jehu[9], Could be a reference to 1 Kings 16:1-7.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 20:34.
The Story of the Book of Kings[10]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 24:27.
The Acts of Uziah Also called The Book by the prophet Isaiah. Perhaps the same as the Book of Isaiah[7]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 26:22.
The Vision of Isaiah[11]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 32:32.
The Acts of the Kings of israel Also called The Acts and Prayers of Manasseh.[8] May be identical to The Book of the Kings of israel, above.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 33:18.
The Sayings of the Seers[12]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 33:19.
The Laments for Josiah Also called Lamentations. This event is recorded in the existing Book of Lamentations.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 35:25.
The Chronicles of King Ahasuerus[13] Perhaps the same as 1 & 2 Chronicles.
Referenced at Esther 2:23, Esther 6:1, Esther 10:2, and Nehemiah 12:23.

This one can be hard to read because these are no spaces in between the lines. If you want a proper read, go read the link. My question is: What is the deal with these books?


PS: Does established in Heaven also mean that it is established on earth?

[EasternQibla]

My dear fellow Christians,

It is quite clear from the above list that there are missing books of the Bible. I suppose it could be countered that they were not scripture, but the point is this: it seems you are trying to defend the Bible to prove it true, so that Muslims have to accept it. You'll be here a long time ...

It is good to point out the gross errors that Muslims have about the Bible (yes, dear Muslims, you are mistaken in many things): I read such things in Islamic web sites (including some posts here) and they are very hurtful, simply because it is clear that the writers do not want to learn or dialogue.

Leave the Muslims to their lowly Quran - who cares? We have something far greater living within us that they do not know about: "[you are] light in the Lord. Walk as children of light" (Ephesians 5:8).

Richard

[EasternQibla]

Leave the Muslims to their lowly Quran

PS I feel slightly guilty about mentioning 'lowly Quran', especially in an Islamic forum. I simply want to try to pull my fellow Christians out of the bondage of God's revelation being contained in books. In my opinion God's revelation is far greater than this. Remember, dear Muslims, I learnt Surah 112 because I agreed with it. I also remember kissing that page of the Quran to show my agreement with it, even though Muslims would accuse me of idolatry for kissing it ...

[BurningLight]

Actually in this thread I am not questioning the preservation of God's Word shortly after Christ. Had you read the link concerning the lost books of the Old Testament, you would know this. Jesus (pbuh) doesn't even enter the picture, really. If it is your contention that man's ability to lose, burn, destroy or hide god's Word is not stronger than God's power to preserve it, then what do we make of the lost books that are referenced in the Bible (Old Testament)?

I have no idea...??.??. I would imagine that because something is lost doesn't mean it is corrupted or not preserved where ever it is. What I meant was god's message of what we already have written is clear already in the Bible and since we don't have any of the lost or hidden material to contrast with what we have, I trust that god has revealed what is important to us and as we obey that, more will be revealed. But I find it particularly interesting that you aren't challenging or questioning the preservation of god's word shortly after Christ that is if you are not referring to the Quran

Feel free to read that link and respond. Or I'll just copy the list here:

The Book of Jasher (whose title fully translated means the Book of the Upright or the Book of the Just) is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18. From the context in the Book of Samuel it is implied that it was a collection of poetry. Several books have claimed to be this lost text, but are widely discounted as pseudepigrapha.
The Book of the Wars of the Lord.[1] Referenced at Numbers 21:14.
A "Book of Songs" is referenced at 1 Kings 8:12-13 (Septuagint).
The Chronicles of the Kings of israel (lost/missing) and Chronicles of the Kings of Judah ("2 Chronicles" in the Christian Old Testament or "Divrei Hayamim II" in the Hebrew Tanakh) are mentioned in the Books of Kings (1 Kings 14:19, 14:29). They are said to tell of events during the reigns of Kings Jeroboam of israel and Rehoboam of Judah, respectively. The Chronicles of the Kings of israel is again mentioned in 1 Kings 16:20 regarding King Zimri, and many other times throughout 1 and 2 Kings.
"The Book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the Seer" (also called Story of the Prophet Iddo or The Annuals of the Prophet Iddo) is mentioned in the book of 2nd Chronicles. (II Chr 9:29, 12:15, 13:22). Iddo was a seer who lived during the reigns of Solomon, Rehoboam, and Abijah. His deeds were recorded in this book, which has been completely lost to history, save for its title. However, it is interesting to note that Zechariah was the son of Iddo (Ezra 5:1, Zechariah 1:1)
The Manner of the Kingdom[2]
Referenced at 1Samuel 10:25.
The Acts of Solomon[3]
Referenced at 1Kings 11:41.
The Annals of King David[4]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 27:24.
The Book of Samuel the Seer Also called Samuel the Seer or The Acts of Samuel the Seer, which could be the same as 1 & 2 Samuel .[6]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 29:29.
The Book of Nathan the Prophet Also called Nathan the Prophet or The Acts of Nathan the Prophet or History of Nathan the Prophet[5]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 29:29, and also 2Chronicles 9:29.
The Book of Gad the Seer[6]
Referenced at 1Chronicles 29:29.
The Prophecy of Ahijah[7], might be a reference to 1 Kings 14:2-18.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 9:29.
The Book of the Kings of Judah and israel[8]
Referenced in 2Chronicles 16:11, 2Chronicles 27:7 and 2Chronicles 32:32. Might be the same as 1 & 2 Kings.
The Book of Jehu[9], Could be a reference to 1 Kings 16:1-7.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 20:34.
The Story of the Book of Kings[10]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 24:27.
The Acts of Uziah Also called The Book by the prophet Isaiah. Perhaps the same as the Book of Isaiah[7]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 26:22.
The Vision of Isaiah[11]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 32:32.
The Acts of the Kings of israel Also called The Acts and Prayers of Manasseh.[8] May be identical to The Book of the Kings of israel, above.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 33:18.
The Sayings of the Seers[12]
Referenced at 2Chronicles 33:19.
The Laments for Josiah Also called Lamentations. This event is recorded in the existing Book of Lamentations.
Referenced at 2Chronicles 35:25.
The Chronicles of King Ahasuerus[13] Perhaps the same as 1 & 2 Chronicles.
Referenced at Esther 2:23, Esther 6:1, Esther 10:2, and Nehemiah 12:23.

This one can be hard to read because these are no spaces in between the lines. If you want a proper read, go read the link. My question is: What is the deal with these books?
PS: Does established in Heaven also mean that it is established on earth?

Good question friend, I don't know. But I believe god would never let his people be without his uncorrupted word ever! And if god would let us be with a corrupted word before Christ or shortly after, that means he can't be trusted keeping it uncorrupted at any time let alone shortly after Christ. I could just see the atheists gloating over our discussion. My contention is that if we had those missing books it wouldn't change god's plan for salvation established from the foundation of the earth. God's laws are written on the hearts of men by god; so, everyone knows at one point where there missed god's best for their lives and now they are blinded by deception and yet god in his mercy still reaches out

Edited by BurningLight, 06 December 2011 - 09:13 PM.

[Younes]

I have no idea...??.??. I would imagine that because something is lost doesn't mean it is corrupted or not preserved where ever it is. What I meant was god's message of what we already have written is clear already in the Bible and since we don't have any of the lost or hidden material to contrast with what we have, I trust that god has revealed what is important to us and as we obey that, more will be revealed. But I find it particularly interesting that you aren't challenging or questioning the preservation of god's word shortly after Christ that is if you are not referring to the Quran

If something is lost, it by definition is not preserved. There is no way getting around that. Let's not start playing with basic definitions. You said that your contention was that man's ability to lose, burn, destroy or hide god's Word is not stronger than God's power to preserve it. The matter is clear. There are lost books of the Bible and were we to go by your contention, man's ability to lose God's Word would be greater than God's power to preserve His Word.

[BurningLight]

If something is lost, it by definition is not preserved. There is no way getting around that. Let's not start playing with basic definitions. You said that your contention was that man's ability to lose, burn, destroy or hide god's Word is not stronger than God's power to preserve it. The matter is clear. There are lost books of the Bible and were we to go by your contention, man's ability to lose God's Word would be greater than God's power to preserve His Word.

No, that is not true. If you don't believe me ask an objective opinion about it, but not about a subjective topic with built in baises such as Islam and Christianity. For instance, someone could put a message in a bottle. You can try it yourself. Cork a message in a vaccum sealed bottle and throw it into the sea. I am sure it will get lost as far as your concerned, but that message is still in that bottle preserved from the elements of water, weather and temperature and can be read hundreds of years later by anyone that finds it. If Man's power is greater that GOD Almighty, then GOD is not worth serving plain and simple.

One would think that GOD would have preserved the Injeel to confirm Muhammad's message, but Muslims haven't been able to come up with the lost Injeel, but Christians don't need it, because they have enough in the Bible to get a clear picture of GOD's will and HIS demonstration of love. Jesus said "if any man will follow me, let him take up his cross and follow me." he also said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me" I have heard his voice so I follow him and not another, so we are both dancing to the beat of a different drummer. Are there any bridges that can be built between Islam and Christianity? I am afraid I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I think the only thing we have is to try and discuss using reason and love to presuade each other, but if a Muslim or a Christian doesn't have an interest to reach someone for GOD; than, that person is useless to GOD and humanity from a spiritual perspective IMO.

[zain al]

Yeah if you want to save the Muslims, go and study the Quran.
Come back in ten years' time.

Edited by zain al, 07 December 2011 - 09:38 AM.

[BurningLight]

Yeah if you want to save the Muslims, go and study the Quran.
Come back in ten years' time.

Are you saying it takes someone ten years to learn the Quran? I can save no one even if I studied the Quran or Bible for 50 years neither can you. What are you talking about ???

Edited by BurningLight, 07 December 2011 - 03:35 PM.