87 replies to this topic

[ParadiseLost]

Hi Luckee,

Don't think that God is not Just by us being here. Actually we are lucky that we are giving the opportunity to live life and use our own mind. God tells us in the quran to actually You wouldn't be on an Islamic forum if you didn't have questions about God - be open minded and try learn about God and hopefully you will accept God in your life. Don't be hesitant in searching for the truth.

Narrated Anas ibn Malik Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim [Al Timirdhi Hadith #74]


Abdullah b. Qais reported from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) that none is more forbearing in listening to the most irksome things than Allah, the Exalted. They associate rivals with him, attribute sonhood to Him, but in spite of this He provides them sustenance, grants them safety, confers upon them so many things. (Sahih Muslim, Book #039, Hadith #6732)

[Abu Firdaws]

100 lifetimes of disbelieve still doesn't justify an eternity in Hell.

What causes a soul to be evil. Who created the soul, was it neutral at the beginning, good or evil? Does the soul have free will, then how can it choose evil for eternity when the eternal choice to choose the good is always available? Assuming that Allah exists and total submission to His will is a choice we have to make. It seems that an eternal disbelieve is non-existant. The disbelieve can only approach eternity, but will never reach it l. If one has an eternal disbelieve of Allah, then sure He is Allah himself! This cannot be possible, right? If God wills, surely He can show the way even to the most evil when there is an eternity to show it?

If the soul does not choose evil or disbelieve, yet is still being put in Hell as a punishment, what does that imply? The goodness of the soul is not being increased, but rather decreased. When you take out this soul, he will be a good soul, not because his soul is good, but because he fears Allah and fears Hell. The fear is not the roots of goodnes, but fear is the root of all evil. So the very concept Hell is by no means a useful thing for the soul. It does not motivate or promote goodness of soul, but rather evil. Why does Allah put souls in hell for them to become more evil? To enforce the fear that already is present within the soul? Why would Allah promote fear by spreading a promise of punishment for those who do evil? How will these disbeliever submit to such a scary merciless God when fear is what caused their disbelieve and evil deeds to be in the first place? It seems contradicting.

No offence but I get the impression that you post questions without even thinking. Fear is the root of all evil? Fear caused people to disbelieve and do evil deeds? What are you talking about?

[Luckee]

No offence but I get the impression that you post questions without even thinking. Fear is the root of all evil? Fear caused people to disbelieve and do evil deeds? What are you talking about?

I am trying to understand it, so I expose my honest believes in order to change them if this is necessary. These are my honest thoughts.

I have always experienced fear to point out a lie in my perception. Whenever I fear something, it seems that this fear is usually based on a lie that I have accepted as my truth. For example, I fear death, because I think death is the end of my existance. Take away this lie, there is no more fear. I fear spiders, vecause they are dangerous, take away this lie, I suddenly see the truth that spiders are afraid of me, etc.

When a persons goodness is based on fear, the goodness is but a mere beautifull shell rotten and ugly and evil from the inside. There is no such thing as a good deed that has fear at its roots. A fearfull soul expresses the truth as a lie, which creates the experience of fear. This fear point at the lie that caused the fear, and thanks to the fear we expose the lie, which makes it instanteniously powerless. Choosing to believe in the exposed lie is no longer a habbit, but a choice. Thus is what has been revealed to me during my meditations and prayer with intention to find the truth.

All the evil deeds I have commited in my life were all based on lies which caused fear. For example, when someone touches my food, I become angry, but conceal my anger and get frustrated. I feel hatred in my heart for this person and I cannot forgive him! Why? Because I believe in the lie that I will die of hunger if I let other people take my food. This is a lie. I no longer choose to believe it. God has gifted us with fear in this way to expose lies, so that I now have discovered the truth that putting my self last, I end up ahead of everyone.

I assure you, these questions I ask you are not sarcastic questions. This is my lifes experience and perceptions. My interpretation of my own life. I appreciate every response I have received so far and desire to dig even deeper to discover more and gain a deeper understanding of Islam.

[Redeem]

100 lifetimes of disbelieve still doesn't justify an eternity in Hell.

And you know what a child would say? Cheating on 100 exams wouldn't justify being grounded for a month. Because the child lacks the capacity for understanding how bad cheating is. And you don't seem to understand how terrible it is for the creation, created solely to worship the one deserving of it, to reject its Creator.

Salam.

[Luckee]

And you know what a child would say? Cheating on 100 exams wouldn't justify being grounded for a month. Because the child lacks the capacity for understanding how bad cheating is. And you don't seem to understand how terrible it is for the creation, created solely to worship the one deserving of it, to reject its Creator.

Salam.

I'm trying very hard to understand though. Let me tell you what I think. I would love for you to point out the flaws in my thinking so that I may come closer to the truth, if you are willing to do so. All I can do is to reveal my honest thoughts. This is coming from me, not did I take any drugs. I don't even consume sugar, nor alcohol. My brain is as best as can be. I'm sure I'll be able to understand you quite well if you explain to me. My intentions is honestly to find the truth, together, not on my own, but practicing agreement and not disagreement.

It seems that we are able to choose not to worship God. There must be some design flaws here and there, appearantly.

I think cheating on 100 exams would be a huge accomplishment for any child. To denie the talent of this child and punish him for expressing the talent that God gave him, is a sin in my eyes. The parent is responsible to provide the right environment that helps te child to grow according to his or her specific needs. To live out her or his specific theme in life. Instead of locking the child in a house, I'm sure there are more useful ways to teach the child some diligence and find the confidence to use his or her talents in more useful ways and to express his or her talents in more truthful ways. More true to the soul.

How much do you know about the education system to place your complete trust in it? School is a game of social engineering. Who created the books that your child takes exams on? How much do you know about them? In a true school, there is no cheating and no exam. There is only student and teacher. The student cared for by a respected teacher, not clever teacher, not beautiful teacher, not funny teacher, not angry teacher... A WISE teacher. People who innovate while keeping the constant in mind!
The corrupt people who are responsible for the education of the children of the world certainly do not send their children to a public school that brainwashes children to think in the most limiting ways as possible and believe in the most self limiting ways as possible and learn from teacher who are already socialy engineerd themselves.
Math teachers reading qu'ran, yet who have 6 year old daughters who sit behind computer all day and browsing naked japanese anime for children and watch tv programs that literally pump the child with lies about how to relate to the opposite sex.

So no, I don't know how terrible it is for the created to reject his or her creator. I have never witnessed anyone reject his or her creator. Its just that people are confused about who or what the creator is.

Edited by Luckee, 18 December 2011 - 03:59 AM.

[Redeem]

It seems that we are able to choose not to worship God. There must be some design flaws here and there, appearantly.

I'm sure you've heard of the term free will. The fact that there is a choice is what makes God Just. Otherwise, there would be no choice and people would be thrown into Hellfire for things beyond their control.

I think cheating on 100 exams would be a huge accomplishment for any child. To denie the talent of this child and punish him for expressing the talent that God gave him, is a sin in my eyes.

Setting aside the fact that I don't agree with your moral stance on the issue (I don't want the topic to be sidetracked), I was using an analogy. The point of an analogy is that there is a similarity drawn between two otherwise different scenarios. I.e. comparing an apple to an orange because both are fruits.

Scenario 1: You're claiming that disobeying God in 100 lifetimes doesn't warrant an eternity in Hellfire.
Scenario 2: I pointed out that, to a child, a punishment will never be "just" either, because the child lacks the capacity to understand that his/her actions are wrong. Just as you seem to lack the capacity to understand the wrongdoings of those who end up in Hellfire. In both cases, the comparison is NOT how "wrong" or "right" the punishments are or what the wrongdoing is to begin with, but the perception that the recipient of the punishment has of the crime and the punishment.

The analogy is not the subject of discussion. The point of the analogy is that none of us, like that child who doesn't understand right from wrong, can fully grasp the rights that God has on us, His creation.

So no, I don't know how terrible it is for the created to reject his or her creator. I have never witnessed anyone reject his or her creator. Its just that people are confused about who or what the creator is.

I've met plenty of people who have rejected Him outright. For those who seek guidance, Allah will guide them. For those who have no desire, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Salam.

[Abu Firdaws]

When a persons goodness is based on fear, the goodness is but a mere beautifull shell rotten and ugly and evil from the inside. There is no such thing as a good deed that has fear at its roots. A fearfull soul expresses the truth as a lie, which creates the experience of fear. This fear point at the lie that caused the fear, and thanks to the fear we expose the lie, which makes it instanteniously powerless. Choosing to believe in the exposed lie is no longer a habbit, but a choice. Thus is what has been revealed to me during my meditations and prayer with intention to find the truth.

But you're not taking into consideration that God is also a God of Mercy. There is a balance but you are only concentrating on one aspect of God. Yes God will punish those who disbelieve in Him, and He is justified as we already mentioned -- so yes we must fear His punishment. At the same time He is a God of Mercy, a Loving God, who has invited you to enter Paradise for eternity.

[Luckee]

I'm sure you've heard of the term free will. The fact that there is a choice is what makes God Just. Otherwise, there would be no choice and people would be thrown into Hellfire for things beyond their control.
Setting aside the fact that I don't agree with your moral stance on the issue (I don't want the topic to be sidetracked), I was using an analogy. The point of an analogy is that there is a similarity drawn between two otherwise different scenarios. I.e. comparing an apple to an orange because both are fruits.

Scenario 1: You're claiming that disobeying God in 100 lifetimes doesn't warrant an eternity in Hellfire.
Scenario 2: I pointed out that, to a child, a punishment will never be "just" either, because the child lacks the capacity to understand that his/her actions are wrong. Just as you seem to lack the capacity to understand the wrongdoings of those who end up in Hellfire. In both cases, the comparison is NOT how "wrong" or "right" the punishments are or what the wrongdoing is to begin with, but the perception that the recipient of the punishment has of the crime and the punishment.

The analogy is not the subject of discussion. The point of the analogy is that none of us, like that child who doesn't understand right from wrong, can fully grasp the rights that God has on us, His creation.
I've met plenty of people who have rejected Him outright. For those who seek guidance, Allah will guide them. For those who have no desire, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Salam.

Yes, the child learn that their wrong doing is being PUNISHED for doing the thing they did, not because they are doing the thing that is called "wrong." The fact that a child is not biased to call things either wrong or right point to their purity and innocence. So they no longer get themselves PUNISHED as they grow up, their goodness is then based on FEAR of being punished and AVOIDANCE of it and not based on goodness. It is ROTTEN from the inside out. Sooner or later the child will discover these lies that are fed to him/her by his/her parents and let them go. Only then will the child be able to freely express his truth and live the life that God has set out to him/her. To discover the goodness from within and not without.
Besides, who invented the you're "grounded" thing? Do we look TV to learn how to raise our children these days? That would be very sad...

Anyways... When I was a child, I got punished and I found the punishment not SEVERE enough. I could not even forgive my self for the discontentment of my own parents. How can you say that a child does not know he has done wrong? I even hurt my self when my parents did wrong, taking responsibility for their wrong doings on my self... When my brother whined for expensive toys, I would punish my self by playing only with old and inexpensive toys! Being grounded for 500 years is not a punishment in my eyes. It would be a gift of the new experience of God, and no moment has been denied as such for me. Every moment of my life has been and always will be Just... How does an eternity in Hell compare to all my lifetimes is a human being? How does an unearthly and eternal punishment compare to an earthly and finite sin?

So, let us say we receive 100 lifetimes in Hell. Then we come out of that Hell... What do you think the first intention of that soul will be? To love God, submit to him, and bow to him and praise him? Hahaha... He will certainly do so, while concealing a dagger behind his back. Not for killing God, but denie his Creation by killing himself and return to Hell... This is how corrupt Hell makes the people. Maybe they will take some sacrifice along with them. This is what ideas have been implemented in the minds of people who disbelieve. The believers have created this evil by claiming that these people are doomed to experience the eternal punishment of Hell Fire... To believers? They claim the eternal pleasure of heaven?

Now I'm getting really confused. You know why? I think I would rather go to Hell and help the poor souls there who are suffering. The souls that have been casted out by their Creator and are being emprisoned. What is the purpose of Heaven?

Lastly, I have sought guidance. I do believe in God. Yet, that word is relative to each person in my view. I am trying to understand currently how an eternal punishment in Hell is Just. It seems to ignore the fact that God is the all-mercifull. It does not even contain 50% of that mercifullness of His. IT does not even contain 1%.

Edited by Luckee, 18 December 2011 - 01:12 PM.

[Luckee]

But you're not taking into consideration that God is also a God of Mercy. There is a balance but you are only concentrating on one aspect of God. Yes God will punish those who disbelieve in Him, and He is justified as we already mentioned -- so yes we must fear His punishment. At the same time He is a God of Mercy, a Loving God, who has invited you to enter Paradise for eternity.

And who created this dualistic idea of mercilessness and the all-mercifull? It did certainly not come from me. I am simply discussing with you what you have been telling me. As I said, my believe is currently that it is the greatest sin to give Allah a name. If Allah is indeed his name, given to those who requested His name out of stubborness; it is, in my view, the greatest sin to speak of His name in any way or form. By doing so, we associate "things" with him. I don't even believe we are to speak of His creation. As soon as we name the things he has created for us, we are no longer with God, but have seperated our selves from Him. So now back to the Islamic understandings. That is what I am here for after all. To learn more about Islam. Gain new perspectives. So please do understand that I am simply asking you questions and trying to explain these questions so that you can more easily answer them. I am not enforcing my believes upon you, since I have already stated my believe above, should you wish to discuss them anyway.

Question:
In Islam, to God belongs all the beautiful names. Yet, now you say that God is 50% mercilnessness and 50% all-mercifull? That His all-mercy is only one aspect of His fragmented being? Why don't we call God the all-merciless God, the Greatest Tyrant? Why don't we call Him, the neutral, impartial God? Why don't we call him, "sometimes good, sometimes bad" God? Or even better... Why don't we call Him the unnamable?

Edited by Luckee, 18 December 2011 - 01:13 PM.

[AHMAD_73]

Question:
In Islam, to God belongs all the beautiful names. Yet, now you say that God is 50% mercilnessness and 50% all-mercifull? That His all-mercy is only one aspect of His fragmented being? Why don't we call God the all-merciless God, the Greatest Tyrant? Why don't we call Him, the neutral, impartial God? Why don't we call him, "sometimes good, sometimes bad" God? Or even better... Why don't we call Him the unnamable?

Answer:

The answer depends totally on How do you see Mercy is?

1- The god told us that what we have of mercy on the earth (including that the animal may keep her leg suspended up because it afraid to heart its son) is just 1% of what he will saved for us on the day of judgment. Believe or not we will see 99 mercies more than all what ever happened on this life.

2- This concept (50% mercilessness and 50% all-merciful, as you call it) is logic when implemented in the right pasition/aituation/for the right persons. if you, Luckee, knew and saw an stupid aggressive 17 years old adult (Columbine) is attacking, striking or killing a 5 years old meek childs. now if you show that kind of mercy you have in mind towards, the first, i believe that means you are just doing the opposite.
my point is some times "showing less mercy, as some think" is the "real mercy", to stop the aggressor from further stupidities and to satisfy the oppressed.

3- From the god mercy forms, although some may not see it like that, he, Almighty gave us more capabilities/facilities than we need to perform the life test. If he, almighty, created us with only one eye one ear one hand, three fingers a hand, lower mind capabilities walking on four less beautiful,……..imagine what else. He, almighty, able to take many, many of what he blessed us and we still be able to complete the test. All what we have (above the minimum) is just a merciful blessings from Allah.

4- He, almighty will not account you for what the society and circumstances made you, unless he sends you a messenger/ real proof.
17:15 S: Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.

5- How merciful the god will account people:
While, and due to his mercy, he don't count the intention to do a sin, as a sin, neither all the preparation steps for the sin. But when some one commits a sin it will count as 1 sin.
While if you intended to do a good deed, Allah will account that as 1 good deed (hasanah), while during each step of preparing to it the reward is doubled. When you do the good deed Allah will reward you from 10 doubles to 700 doubles, and more depends on the kind of deed.

6- All of his guiding codes-religions- is just for our own benefits in this life before the second one. for example prohibiting adultery, incest,...was for the benefit, happiness and less suffering for all humanity, we just discover that just few decades ago.

In fact there are many other forms of the real mercy

[Redeem]

Yes, the child learn that their wrong doing is being PUNISHED for doing the thing they did, not because they are doing the thing that is called "wrong."

You're completely ignoring the point. A disbeliever knows that he is being punished for doing what he did as well, right? Your claim is that the disbeliever is being punished unfairly. And guess what? Most children never feel it's fair to be punished for their wrongdoings.

The fact that a child is not biased to call things either wrong or right point to their purity and innocence. So they no longer get themselves PUNISHED as they grow up, their goodness is then based on FEAR of being punished and AVOIDANCE of it and not based on goodness. It is ROTTEN from the inside out. Sooner or later the child will discover these lies that are fed to him/her by his/her parents and let them go.

No offense, but you've gone off on a tangent about an analogy. Why are you changing the subject and talking about children and child development, when as I've told you already, the example of a child is an analogy and not a subject of debate?

So, let us say we receive 100 lifetimes in Hell. Then we come out of that Hell...

Except that this won't happen. Discussing this is no more relevant than discussing a time when pigs will fly. Or maybe I shouldn't use another analogy, since you might start talking about pigs and wings now.

This is how corrupt Hell makes the people.

You don't know the condition an individual will be in, emotionally, physically or mentally, after they have been in Hellfire. You're merely assuming that they will be corrupted.

Now I'm getting really confused. You know why? I think I would rather go to Hell and help the poor souls there who are suffering. The souls that have been casted out by their Creator and are being emprisoned. What is the purpose of Heaven?

If you find yourself in boiling lava, just how helpful do you think you'd be in that situation?

Cast out? Imprisoned? Now you're playing word propaganda. Again, people in Hellfire reap what they sow. And people in Heaven reap what they sow. If you think you'd have the capacity to throw away your life for anyone, so that you can burn in fire along with them, get back to me when you find yourself standing in front of the gates of Hell.

It seems to ignore the fact that God is the all-mercifull. It does not even contain 50% of that mercifullness of His. IT does not even contain 1%.

God is not Merciful in the way you're defining it. It does not mean that God is merciful to every single person, every single moment. If God was always, unfailingly merciful, then He would have mercy on those who do wrong. Meaning that if a man rapes and murders a woman, on the Day of Judgment God would simply bestow His mercy on the man without judging Him.

God is Just. Don't throw away His attribute of being Just, so that He will seem Merciful to you.

Salam.

[Luckee]

Answer:

The answer depends totally on How do you see Mercy is?

1- The god told us that what we have of mercy on the earth (including that the animal may keep her leg suspended up because it afraid to heart its son) is just 1% of what he will saved for us on the day of judgment. Believe or not we will see 99 mercies more than all what ever happened on this life.

2- This concept (50% mercilessness and 50% all-merciful, as you call it) is logic when implemented in the right pasition/aituation/for the right persons. if you, Luckee, knew and saw an stupid aggressive 17 years old adult (Columbine) is attacking, striking or killing a 5 years old meek childs. now if you show that kind of mercy you have in mind towards, the first, i believe that means you are just doing the opposite.
my point is some times "showing less mercy, as some think" is the "real mercy", to stop the aggressor from further stupidities and to satisfy the oppressed.

3- From the god mercy forms, although some may not see it like that, he, Almighty gave us more capabilities/facilities than we need to perform the life test. If he, almighty, created us with only one eye one ear one hand, three fingers a hand, lower mind capabilities walking on four less beautiful,……..imagine what else. He, almighty, able to take many, many of what he blessed us and we still be able to complete the test. All what we have (above the minimum) is just a merciful blessings from Allah.

4- He, almighty will not account you for what the society and circumstances made you, unless he sends you a messenger/ real proof.
17:15 S: Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.

5- How merciful the god will account people:
While, and due to his mercy, he don't count the intention to do a sin, as a sin, neither all the preparation steps for the sin. But when some one commits a sin it will count as 1 sin.
While if you intended to do a good deed, Allah will account that as 1 good deed (hasanah), while during each step of preparing to it the reward is doubled. When you do the good deed Allah will reward you from 10 doubles to 700 doubles, and more depends on the kind of deed.

6- All of his guiding codes-religions- is just for our own benefits in this life before the second one. for example prohibiting adultery, incest,...was for the benefit, happiness and less suffering for all humanity, we just discover that just few decades ago.

In fact there are many other forms of the real mercy

To satisfy the opressed is to safe them and free them. There is no mercy in this. The opressed have done nothing wrong for them to even be granted mercy in the first place. How does killing or stopping the enemy of the opressed equal to mercy to the opressed? It is opression of the opressors. An eternal punishment to those who have opressed other people out of fear and scarcity thinking? I do not even desire such a thing for my biggest enemy. I'd rather take their place in hell and have them go to heaven. I will not be able to enjoy heaven, knowing that someone is in hell because of my "desires" to not be opressed.

Also, why does Allah reward good deeds and promise punishment for bad deeds, when this kind of goodness is also based on fear of punishment and not on goodness? Why are we rewarded for good deeds with points as if it is a video game? Why does god give a competetive system for us to follow and compete in to gain higher points? Why does God not teach us to find goodness from within and not without? trough his messengers

Edited by Luckee, 18 December 2011 - 05:53 PM.

[Luckee]

You're completely ignoring the point. A disbeliever knows that he is being punished for doing what he did as well, right? Your claim is that the disbeliever is being punished unfairly. And guess what? Most children never feel it's fair to be punished for their wrongdoings.
No offense, but you've gone off on a tangent about an analogy. Why are you changing the subject and talking about children and child development, when as I've told you already, the example of a child is an analogy and not a subject of debate?
Except that this won't happen. Discussing this is no more relevant than discussing a time when pigs will fly. Or maybe I shouldn't use another analogy, since you might start talking about pigs and wings now.
You don't know the condition an individual will be in, emotionally, physically or mentally, after they have been in Hellfire. You're merely assuming that they will be corrupted.
If you find yourself in boiling lava, just how helpful do you think you'd be in that situation?

Cast out? Imprisoned? Now you're playing word propaganda. Again, people in Hellfire reap what they sow. And people in Heaven reap what they sow. If you think you'd have the capacity to throw away your life for anyone, so that you can burn in fire along with them, get back to me when you find yourself standing in front of the gates of Hell.
God is not Merciful in the way you're defining it. It does not mean that God is merciful to every single person, every single moment. If God was always, unfailingly merciful, then He would have mercy on those who do wrong. Meaning that if a man rapes and murders a woman, on the Day of Judgment God would simply bestow His mercy on the man without judging Him.

God is Just. Don't throw away His attribute of being Just, so that He will seem Merciful to you.

Salam.

As I said, punishing a child is not punishment. If you become angry at the child, you should be punished. If you teach the child a lesson, your are the teacher. What is the good, but a bad man's teacher?

[size=4]ETERNAL PUNISHMENT! [using large font size is not allowed] What is the lesson in this, and how is it Just? How can we sow and reap and eternity of Hell Fire? Are we God to have such capabilities? Do you even understand what eternity is? It never ends, you know that right? If I'm a women and I get raped and killed, I'd be happy to become his daughter in another life, so that I can teach him and be a guide to him. So, does this make me more mercifull then God? To not leave him rotting in his low place, but give him a hand to reach the heavens? When no one is shown the way, there is no sin in his wrong doings. to forgive your enemy, you must first learn to forgive your self. If I become angry at the person raping me, then God allowed that person to rape me, to teach me a lesson. As long as I hate people who rape me, I will attract them in my life. Untill I decide to stop hating them, to forgive them. Then there is no more rape, there is only forgetfullness of God.

Also, are you saying that God is failingly mercifull? So, he's just a human being then? Do you say that God does not show mercy to those who do wrong? So he is not all-mercifull. Neither all-compassionate. He does not show compassion to those who do "wrong." So its some-compassionate, but not all compassionate?

Do you know how children get punished for murdering someone? They get slapped in the face, at most, and their life limitted. Do you know how someone who does not believe in a "name" that is relative to every person? According to you: an eternity in Hell Fire, burning, a pain that grows whenever it seems to diminish, a suffering that does not end, neither by death nor sleep, nor time. I'm kinda childish to think that this is not Just?

Edited by Luckee, 18 December 2011 - 06:20 PM.

[Abu Firdaws]

I'm kinda childish to think that this is not Just?

It's your decision whether you go to Hell or not, what's so difficult to understand about that? And where is the injustice in that? Good has given you free will, so at the end day it's your decision.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)." [Sahih Bukhari]

[Luckee]

It's your decision whether you go to Hell or not, what's so difficult to understand about that? And where is the injustice in that? Good has given you free will, so at the end day it's your decision.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)." [Sahih Bukhari]

So it is a choice? Are people in Paradise free to go to Hell whenever they wish, and are people in Hell free to go to Paradise whenever they wish?

How does that make Hell an eternal punishment? Maybe I'm confused as to what is ment with "eternal punishment"... What is ment with it exactly? Does it perhaps mean the eternity of "present moment" as long as the choice is there to be in Hell, then thats where we shall be eternally?

If one in Hell begins to believe in Allah, surely Hell and its eternity dissapears in an instant, is this not so? If we can change between believe and disbelieve in an instant, then we can move from paradise to hell in an instant and the other way around?

Edited by Luckee, 19 December 2011 - 01:08 AM.

[Redeem]

As I said, punishing a child is not punishment. If you become angry at the child, you should be punished. If you teach the child a lesson, your are the teacher. What is the good, but a bad man's teacher?

Now you're preaching your moral stance. When you're willing to acknowledge the context of the analogy, which is comparison between the mentality of a child (NOT the adult, as you keep on preaching about) and the mentality of the Hell dweller, we'll revisit the issue.

[size=4]ETERNAL PUNISHMENT! [using large font size is not allowed] What is the lesson in this, and how is it Just?

Who said there is a lesson? And I believe I've already mentioned how it is just.

A person is in control of his or her own fate. They reap what they sow. That's what makes it just. Not whether or not you think that lessons are better than punishments.

If I'm a women and I get raped and killed, I'd be happy to become his daughter in another life, so that I can teach him and be a guide to him.

And what about the countless women who wouldn't want such a cruelty of fate that makes them the daughter of their rapist? What if they want God to make their rapists suffer as they did? If God refuses, how is He merciful to the rape victim?

If I become angry at the person raping me, then God allowed that person to rape me, to teach me a lesson.

In other words, God was punishing you. And by the way, this doesn't even make sense. You're saying that God allowed the person to rape you because you became angry at the person for raping you. So what came first, the anger or the rape? Because you can't be angry until you've been raped, and God can't "teach you a lesson" by allowing this man to rape you when the anger came after the rape.

As long as I hate people who rape me, I will attract them in my life. Untill I decide to stop hating them, to forgive them.

So you're saying that the rape victim is to blame for being raped...because she didn't forgive all of those who had hurt her in the past? But that the evil man who rapes women left and right and gets away with it deserves to be loved by his victims? And how on God's wide earth is THIS supposed to be just?

Also, are you saying that God is failingly mercifull?

Are you saying that being merciful is a failure?

Do you say that God does not show mercy to those who do wrong? So he is not all-mercifull. Neither all-compassionate. He does not show compassion to those who do "wrong." So its some-compassionate, but not all compassionate?

I never said God was "all-merciful" to begin with. I said He was the Most Merciful. You can't dispute that. Because He is the only source of mercy in the universe.

Salam.

[Abu Firdaws]

So it is a choice? Are people in Paradise free to go to Hell whenever they wish, and are people in Hell free to go to Paradise whenever they wish?

How does that make Hell an eternal punishment? Maybe I'm confused as to what is ment with "eternal punishment"... What is ment with it exactly? Does it perhaps mean the eternity of "present moment" as long as the choice is there to be in Hell, then thats where we shall be eternally?

If one in Hell begins to believe in Allah, surely Hell and its eternity dissapears in an instant, is this not so? If we can change between believe and disbelieve in an instant, then we can move from paradise to hell in an instant and the other way around?

Look mate, you're reading into things too much and coming up with all sorts of unfounded ideas. Islaam is simple, there's no secret mystical meaning behind the text. Those who believe in God in this life will be entitled to His Mercy in the next. Those who disbelieve in God in this life (and only the evil, misguided, corrupt, arrogant etc. would do such a thing) aren't entitled to God's Mercy in the next life. God gave both the believer and the disbeliever ample opportunity to believe in this life, the Mercy of God encompasses even the disbeliever in this life -- so for him to reject God would mean that he pretty much didn't want to believe in Him.

The punishment is justified. A warner came to you telling you that God has created a Paradise and a Hell, and it is an eternal abode. Look, I am warning you now that punishment in Hell is eternal -- so where is the excuse? Maybe you're asking the wrong question.

[AHMAD_73]

[size=4]ETERNAL PUNISHMENT! [using large font size is not allowed]

Luckee, salam

1- For you, I'll narrate the opinion of some odd Moslem scholars who see the hell punishment will not be eternal, or at least not sure to be so, based on some evidences from the Quran and Sunnah,
Allah tells in the Quran:

006.128 Y: One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as Allah willeth." for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.

011.107 Y: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.

Some hadeeths:
"Allah has divided the mercy into 100 parts, and he kept 99 part with him and descended on the earth only one part with which every mercy action on that earth, including that the animal may keep her leg suspended up because it afraid to heart here son." Bukhary 5570 -6000

" Allah has divided the mercy into 100 parts, and he kept 99 part with him and descended on the earth only one part. So if the "unbeliever, Kafir" know the real god mercy he won't Despair that he may get to the paradise, ……….. " Bukhary 6017- 6469

that what could be felt as a great scholar of Islam thoughts, Ibn Qaym Al-Gawziah, in his book " Hady Al-Aroah ila belad Al-Afrah حادي الارواح الى بلاد الافراح", which talks about "a spirit journey to the hereafter" .although some may say he retreated back in the next books.

2- For me, and the main stream of Muslems, and i hope that you too, Eternal or non-eternal, I trust my god Justice. He have the real absolut mercy, in this life and the hereafter what ever he, almighty, decreed. We can't apply the small minds, we have in this life, to every law of the hereafter.

If the Human, felt free (relative free), he wasn't deterred enough, afraid enough from the god punishments. He may be more, relative free, to sin, which is so bad for the person and society in this life and the second life too. Deterring is the most merciful way to save the greater part of humanity.

in the Hadeeth "....Allah will get a man, and ask the angles to read his sins, the small among them, and the man is admitting every one and so afraid to hear the big among them. Allah then will say, my servant, i covered you in the 1st life and i'll replace every bad deed with one deed. the man will say O Allah there still many sins i did't see it here......the prophet of Allah laugh" Moslem (471)(1/262)
I can't how this god won't be Justified and Merciful, He almighty is, but we don't know.

That's a very late question, we are just in the middle of the test, and instead of arguing is this the real or relative, what the laws of the test suppose to be,……..we have to go answer and study and succeed the test as best as we can. And be sure we are just following the most Justice and merciful god.

The Hadeeths translation is mine, may Allah forgive me if I did a mistake.

May Allah show you and every truth seeker the real truth, Amen

Edited by AHMAD_73, 19 December 2011 - 02:38 PM.

[Scotia]

It's your decision whether you go to Hell or not, what's so difficult to understand about that? And where is the injustice in that? Good has given you free will, so at the end day it's your decision.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)." [Sahih Bukhari]

LOL you think free will is being given 2 choices?

[Redeem]

LOL you think free will is being given 2 choices?

Care to explain why it's not? Because I believe, just now, I had the choice between writing this message or declining. There's that free will of mine.

Salam.