87 replies to this topic

[Abu Firdaws]

LOL you think free will is being given 2 choices?

Erm, yeah?

[Luckee]

How can we know what eternity even means? How can we name God and put so many conditions upon him, yet at the same time say that we not to put any conditions upon him, giving him so many names? Why is Islam contradicting itself, by speaking so much about the unspeakable and unseen and unnamable?

[Abu Firdaws]

How can we know what eternity even means? How can we name God and put so many conditions upon him, yet at the same time say that we not to put any conditions upon him, giving him so many names? Why is Islam contradicting itself, by speaking so much about the unspeakable and unseen and unnamable?

The definition of the word eternity is "time without end" -- I'm sure you can understand that, whether you can comprehend it in it's entirety is something else. Allaah speaks about His attributes in the Qur'an, for example He is The Most Merciful, do you know what mercy is? Yes. Can you comprehend the Mercy of Allaah fully? Probably not. But the point is as a human you know what mercy is, you know what forgiveness is, you know what wisdom is, you know what power is etc. and that is a means for you to understand God -- otherwise you would have no understanding of God at all. And it is not us who gave Allaah names, He revealed those names to us in the Qur'an, and through that we get a better understanding of God.

[Luckee]

The definition of the word eternity is "time without end" -- I'm sure you can understand that, whether you can comprehend it in it's entirety is something else. Allaah speaks about His attributes in the Qur'an, for example He is The Most Merciful, do you know what mercy is? Yes. Can you comprehend the Mercy of Allaah fully? Probably not. But the point is as a human you know what mercy is, you know what forgiveness is, you know what wisdom is, you know what power is etc. and that is a means for you to understand God -- otherwise you would have no understanding of God at all. And it is not us who gave Allaah names, He revealed those names to us in the Qur'an, and through that we get a better understanding of God.

Thanks for the reply. I guess it makes sense if Muslims believe that God created the language for human beings. This is so, right?

So it is a time in hell, without end. If this time is boundless and endless, can we assume that it is infinitely long or infinitely short? How are we to comprehend the concept of boundlessness and infinity, according to Islam?

Edited by Luckee, 28 December 2011 - 01:59 AM.

[Abu Firdaws]

Thanks for the reply. I guess it makes sense if Muslims believe that God created the language for human beings. This is so, right?

So it is a time in hell, without end. If this time is boundless and endless, can we assume that it is infinitely long or infinitely short? How are we to comprehend the concept of boundlessness and infinity, according to Islam?

Sorry, can you explain what "infinitely long" and "infinitely short" mean, and what the difference between the two is?

[Luckee]

Sorry, can you explain what "infinitely long" and "infinitely short" mean, and what the difference between the two is?

I don´t know, I was just making up words in my head, hehe... I don´t even know what infinity means or what it is or how to look at it. It is 0, right?

You said eternity is time without end. Its the same as infinite time right? What is infinite time?

Forget about the infinitely short and long. My question was actually this:

How do muslisms look at the concepts of "infinity", "without end"?

When you say "without end" this comes into my mind: without a limit, without a boundary, without a border, unknown, without idea, without concept, nothingness, void, etc.

To be honest, I just don't know what eternity means. I can't seem to grasp it with my mind. Thats why I was asking.

[Abu Firdaws]

I don´t know, I was just making up words in my head, hehe... I don´t even know what infinity means or what it is or how to look at it. It is 0, right?

You said eternity is time without end. Its the same as infinite time right? What is infinite time?

Forget about the infinitely short and long. My question was actually this:

How do muslisms look at the concepts of "infinity", "without end"?

When you say "without end" this comes into my mind: without a limit, without a boundary, without a border, unknown, without idea, without concept, nothingness, void, etc.

To be honest, I just don't know what eternity means. I can't seem to grasp it with my mind. Thats why I was asking.

What part of it don't you understand? Without end means without end. You live forever.

[Luckee]

What part of it don't you understand? Without end means without end. You live forever.

So sorry for late response! My mind is still on this topic allot these days... I'm very confused about this eternity of Hell. I know obviously that Hell is not pleasant, but I don't comprehend the eternity, without end, infinity of it. It seems like Hell has got no time or something? Time without end, I assume also no beginning? How do we grasp such a thing with our minds or thoughts?

I don't understand the boundlessness of it, the "forever" part. Everything seems to have some sort of boundary, besides God. God to me is the only infinite thing. That is why God is essentially nameless, yet I understand that Allah is the name that has been revealed to Islam.

So what is Hell? I don't know how to look at it, since it has no limit. What does "without end" mean? What does forever mean? How can one live forever and suffer at the same time? Suffering has no eternity to it. Suffering is just a temporary thing that comes and goes. Eternity is infinite like God. There is no "eternal this or that" There is only one eternal, that is God. How can we call Hell eternal? Then surely Hell is Heaven and Heaven is Hell, because they would both be God.

I mean, you think of God and you think, "He is infinite, the Greatest Truth there. unchanging, without end" then you look at Hell and you see that same eternity and infinity. Is Hell an equal Truth to God? Or is God a Higher Truth then Hell? I still don't understand the eternity of it. What is the purpose of suffering an eternity? Do we become demi-Gods who live eternally in Hell? Are we eternal beings? Are we God's? Are there more then one God? Is Hell a God?

I thought Allah is the one and only "eternity" there is. The one and only "Forever" the one and only "without end".

Heaven and Hell seems like two sides of the same coin. Or two extremes of one spectrum. One end is of extreme suffering and the other end is of extreme pleasure. Yet, they are both eternal and equally dependant on this Eternity. Does Heaven depend on Hell? It is written that people become "fuell for the fire" as if this Hell is the powering engine of Heaven.
More suffering in Hell will result in more pleasure in Heaven? Would Heaven be pleasurable even if there existed no Hell?

I can understand "a long time that seems to have no end" but I cannot comprehend something like "it will never end". Surely, then it will also never begin! I don't really feel like I'm in Hell right now, so I've not been in hell eternally. If I sin and go to Hell after this life, then it will begin after this life and then it will also end, because it has a beginning. What am I missing here? How can you look at eternity? It is like the eye describing its own appearance without a mirror. The only way to look at eternity, is to become it and then create a reflection of yourself to look at. Like God creating its own and looking at itself. Or am I looking at it the wrong way? I hope you can see my confusion about Hell being Eternal and unpleasant at the same time more clearly now.

Edited by Luckee, 03 January 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Abu Firdaws]

I mean, you think of God and you think, "He is infinite, the Greatest Truth there. unchanging, without end" then you look at Hell and you see that same eternity and infinity. Is Hell an equal Truth to God? Or is God a Higher Truth then Hell?

Paradise and Hell were created, they didn't always exist. God was not created, Hell was, so you can't compare the two. God can put an end to Hell, Hell can't put an end to God. God owns Hell.

[Luckee]

Paradise and Hell were created, they didn't always exist. God was not created, Hell was, so you can't compare the two. God can put an end to Hell, Hell can't put an end to God. God owns Hell.

I see... That makes sense... So Hell is not eternal in the eyes of God, right?

Heaven and Hell seems like two sides of the same coin. Or two extremes of one spectrum. One end is of extreme suffering and the other end is of extreme pleasure. It is written that people become "fuell for the fire" as if this Hell is the powering engine of Heaven.
More suffering in Hell will result in more pleasure in Heaven?

I also understand that to deny God's existance is the greatest suffering there is. Yet, how can one suffer in Hell when you already are conscious of God and there is no doubt in His existance? It seems that Hell is insignificant compared to God's existance, or is Hell a "forgetfulness" of God or "distraction" from the Ultimate Truth that is Allah?

Edited by Luckee, 03 January 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Abu Firdaws]

I see... That makes sense... So Hell is not eternal in the eyes of God, right?

Heaven and Hell seems like two sides of the same coin. Or two extremes of one spectrum. One end is of extreme suffering and the other end is of extreme pleasure. It is written that people become "fuell for the fire" as if this Hell is the powering engine of Heaven.
More suffering in Hell will result in more pleasure in Heaven?

I also understand that to deny God's existance is the greatest suffering there is. Yet, how can one suffer in Hell when you already are conscious of God and there is no doubt in His existance? It seems that Hell is insignificant compared to God's existance, or is Hell a "forgetfulness" of God or "distraction" from the Ultimate Truth that is Allah?

Well, let me put it this way... Heaven and Hell will last as long as God Wills them to last; if He wanted to He could destroy Heaven and Hell, but instead He has Willed for them to be an eternal abode.

I don't see the connection between the fuel for the fire and an "engine powering Heaven". Heaven is not powered by Hell, how did you come up with that?

Hell is a place of punishment, torment, regret, etc. If you did not believe in this life then it wont benefit you to believe in the Hereafter -- how could you not believe when you see the punishment in front of you? Your chance to believe is in this life, once you leave this world it's game over.

Where are you getting these ideas by the way? What are you reading?

[the sad clown]

So sorry for late response! My mind is still on this topic allot these days... I'm very confused about this eternity of Hell. I know obviously that Hell is not pleasant, but I don't comprehend the eternity, without end, infinity of it. It seems like Hell has got no time or something? Time without end, I assume also no beginning? How do we grasp such a thing with our minds or thoughts?

What does that have to do with hell? An ant can't comprehend euclidean geometry or differential calculus, but that doesn't mean we don't use them.

I don't understand the boundlessness of it, the "forever" part. Everything seems to have some sort of boundary, besides God. God to me is the only infinite thing. That is why God is essentially nameless, yet I understand that Allah is the name that has been revealed to Islam.

There are two types of infinite. There is the eternal timelessness that defines God, and there is what is called a bounded infinity, one which has a specific point of origin, but which proceeds from that point into infinity. I suppose God would be the former and hell the latter in Islamic belief.

[the sad clown]

Heaven and Hell seems like two sides of the same coin. Or two extremes of one spectrum. One end is of extreme suffering and the other end is of extreme pleasure. It is written that people become "fuell for the fire" as if this Hell is the powering engine of Heaven.
More suffering in Hell will result in more pleasure in Heaven?

Where did you get that from? No one has said that, and as far as I am aware no religion, or at least no Abrahamic religion, has ever made such a claim.

I also understand that to deny God's existance is the greatest suffering there is. Yet, how can one suffer in Hell when you already are conscious of God and there is no doubt in His existance? It seems that Hell is insignificant compared to God's existance, or is Hell a "forgetfulness" of God or "distraction" from the Ultimate Truth that is Allah?

Why would denying God's existence be the greatest suffering there is? There are plenty of atheists that deny God's existence. I think they would be happy to know that what they are currently experiencing is the greatest suffering that can be imposed upon them.

[Luckee]

Well, let me put it this way... Heaven and Hell will last as long as God Wills them to last; if He wanted to He could destroy Heaven and Hell, but instead He has Willed for them to be an eternal abode.

I don't see the connection between the fuel for the fire and an "engine powering Heaven". Heaven is not powered by Hell, how did you come up with that?

Hell is a place of punishment, torment, regret, etc. If you did not believe in this life then it wont benefit you to believe in the Hereafter -- how could you not believe when you see the punishment in front of you? Your chance to believe is in this life, once you leave this world it's game over.

Where are you getting these ideas by the way? What are you reading?

I just made assumptions, because it seems that fuel has a clear purpose to power something. What is the purpose of Hell?

It seems that heaven would not seem pleasurable without contrasting it with something that feels unpleasant. The experience of both heaven and hell depend on eachother in that way.

Thats how I look at it. And I read the quotes and links that quoted the quran here on this topic. The quotes that described hell.

Edited by Luckee, 03 January 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[the sad clown]

I just made assumptions, because it seems that fuel has a clear purpose to power something. What is the purpose of Hell?

I think the "fuel" part is metaphorical and was fueling the fires of hell, not powering anything in heaven.

It seems that heaven would not seem pleasurable without contrasting it with something that feels unpleasant. The experience of both heaven and hell depend on eachother in that way.

Did you need someone to punch you in the face in order for you to know that chocolate tasted good? Humans have things they innately enjoy, with or without the experience of things unpleasant. We might appreciate the good things we have more after experiencing the bad, but it is not necessary in order to enjoy something. Likewise, no one needs to experience a happy moment to be adverse to being burned alive. It is an experience we find innately unpleasant, without the need of good experiences to make a comparison.

[Abu Firdaws]

I think the "fuel" part is metaphorical and was fueling the fires of hell, not powering anything in heaven.
Did you need someone to punch you in the face in order for you to know that chocolate tasted good? Humans have things they innately enjoy, with or without the experience of things unpleasant. We might appreciate the good things we have more after experiencing the bad, but it is not necessary in order to enjoy something. Likewise, no one needs to experience a happy moment to be adverse to being burned alive. It is an experience we find innately unpleasant, without the need of good experiences to make a comparison.

I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure how accurate it is... obviously if you punch someone in the face it's going to hurt, because that's something physical ...but what about the non-physical? If God had only created good, then would we as humans appreciate that? If God did not allow evil, then would we still turn to Him and seek a relationship with Him, or would we just go on living not caring about anything. It's human nature, isn't it? When things are going good we forget about God, but when things are bad we become devout believers. I don't know, it's questions like this which interest me, but I guess there is no definitive answer.

[the sad clown]

When things are going good we forget about God, but when things are bad we become devout believers. I don't know, it's questions like this which interest me, but I guess there is no definitive answer.

Are you sure that will be the case though? I mean heaven will be the very epitome of "things going good" and I doubt anyone thinks you will forget about God there. If I were to speculate, the issue is not just things going well, but things going will in an environment where one is not explicitly confronted with the reality of God all about them. I think there is a difference between enjoying something (or not enjoying something if it is bad) and appreciating it with the depth of a perspective formed with experiences of sharp contrasts with what we are enjoying (or not enjoying). I suppose it is a matter of the depth of the experience, and not the nature of the experience that is determined by such varied experiences.

[Abu Firdaws]

Are you sure that will be the case though? I mean heaven will be the very epitome of "things going good" and I doubt anyone thinks you will forget about God there. If I were to speculate, the issue is not just things going well, but things going will in an environment where one is not explicitly confronted with the reality of God all about them. I think there is a difference between enjoying something (or not enjoying something if it is bad) and appreciating it with the depth of a perspective formed with experiences of sharp contrasts with what we are enjoying (or not enjoying). I suppose it is a matter of the depth of the experience, and not the nature of the experience that is determined by such varied experiences.

Well of course, it's different in Heaven; in fact the greatest pleasure in Heaven will be seeing God, so not much chance of forgetting about Him! What I posted wasn't specifically in response to what Luckee posted about Heaven and Hell, I was just speaking generally from a worldly point of view.

[Luckee]

I think the "fuel" part is metaphorical and was fueling the fires of hell, not powering anything in heaven.
Did you need someone to punch you in the face in order for you to know that chocolate tasted good? Humans have things they innately enjoy, with or without the experience of things unpleasant. We might appreciate the good things we have more after experiencing the bad, but it is not necessary in order to enjoy something. Likewise, no one needs to experience a happy moment to be adverse to being burned alive. It is an experience we find innately unpleasant, without the need of good experiences to make a comparison.

Not all people find pain unpleasant. It can be addicting even. For example, spicy food. Or victim behaviour that keeps you in sadness and pain. Behaving like a victim can be addictive. The pain becomes something you crave. Some people cut themselves to feel alive.

I don't think chocolate tastes so good. Not all chocolate atleast. I've recently tasted a chocolate that tasted so good, the other chocolate I used to eat I no longer feel taste so good anymore.

[Luckee]

What does that have to do with hell? An ant can't comprehend euclidean geometry or differential calculus, but that doesn't mean we don't use them.
There are two types of infinite. There is the eternal timelessness that defines God, and there is what is called a bounded infinity, one which has a specific point of origin, but which proceeds from that point into infinity. I suppose God would be the former and hell the latter in Islamic belief.

Where did you get that from? No one has said that, and as far as I am aware no religion, or at least no Abrahamic religion, has ever made such a claim.
Why would denying God's existence be the greatest suffering there is? There are plenty of atheists that deny God's existence. I think they would be happy to know that what they are currently experiencing is the greatest suffering that can be imposed upon them.

Allot of people that call them selves atheist are actually believers. They just can't accept that God is some person or thing. Saying that God is "not" is actually the same in faith as saying that God is someone or something. Atheist say "he exist not" yet that is also some sort of existance you see? There is no place for "not" in non-existance. Atheist who jump from one truth to the next are obviously in search for higher truth and ultimate truth that is God. If they believed not in such a God, what is the point to their search? They would not be searching. I agree with atheists that the search for God never ends. We experience it diffrently, all of us. Yet, we all evolve towards more unity in diffrent ways. Even if you do bad things, you learn that it is bad and you teach others how bad you felt from it so that the whole world grows beyond that experience and evolves towards more unification. It may seem to fluctuate from more fragmented to more unification and back. Yet, if you look at the overall big picture, the entire universe is constantly evolving towards more unity, more peace and less chaos. The entire universe is a Muslim in that sense, in my view. All walking the way of peace and being guided by God's Will with its entire being.

An atheist is not without God. Most atheist practice idolatry, placing the pain or pleasure or physical as highest truth and thinking that it is the unchanging truth when infact they just forgot that it is not the unchanging truth in front of them. It is the changing truth. Everything changes, thus nothing is God. What I've been told is that Muslims call the ultimate truth Allah because this name has been revealed to them. Whatever they call Him, Muslims are steadfast in recognizing the changing nature of our reality and steadfast in remembering the unchanging existance of Allah. This is dedication and diligence of Muslims in my opinion.

Edited by Luckee, 04 January 2012 - 01:23 AM.