106 replies to this topic

[missjupiter]

I was reading the topic in the Politcal forum about Boko Haram and their goal to establish Sharia in Nigeria - which is not a Muslim majority country. Is it allowed? I'm also curious because Muslim conquerers and caliphs in many instances made non-Muslims conform to Muslim rules - like Hindu women were made to dress more conservitively, Christians and Jews could not/ had to ask for permission to build or repair churches and synagogues and barred prayer in public, made to pay tribute, not allowed to display religious symbols in public. In some Muslim countries women have to conform to Islamic dress... Is it allowed for Boko Haram/a caliph or any Muslim(s) to impose Sharia on non-Muslims? If so, does it have a place in a modern society or are these just trends of the past which can be left to fall into obscurity?

Thank you.

[Nile_Salafy]

Hello agian

I wish to thank you for asking questions about Islam and to answer your question here, I think it will be the exact case if I visit UK and need to drive a car, I will drive on the wrong side of the road from what I do here in Egypt, which means I have to follow the UK rules/laws

[missjupiter]

Okay, I understand being in a foreign land and conforming to its rules. But what about when other people force their rules upon others? Is it permissible to make a non-Muslim person/country conform to sharia?

Thanks for your response?

[Nile_Salafy]

Okay, I understand being in a foreign land and conforming to its rules. But what about when other people force their rules upon others? Is it permissible to make a non-Muslim person/country conform to sharia?

Thanks for your response?

UK driving rules are forced on any none UK resident, what if I drive on the same side I drive here in Cairo ? wouldn't that be against the rules they have forced on me ? And of course that goes to all other countries and their rules and laws. I see that any one living/visiting a country should follow the rules forced there.

[the sad clown]

UK driving rules are forced on any none UK resident, what if I drive on the same side I drive here in Cairo ? wouldn't that be against the rules they have forced on me ? And of course that goes to all other countries and their rules and laws. I see that any one living/visiting a country should follow the rules forced there.

Nigeria is the the example. She is asking if it it's ok for muslims to force sharia on non-muslims as in the case of boko haram in Nigeria.

[Nile_Salafy]

Nigeria is the the example. She is asking if it it's ok for muslims to force sharia on non-muslims as in the case of boko haram in Nigeria.

And what makes other countries better or free to force their laws on their people than Nigeria ?

[Scotia]

UK driving rules are forced on any none UK resident, what if I drive on the same side I drive here in Cairo ? wouldn't that be against the rules they have forced on me ? And of course that goes to all other countries and their rules and laws. I see that any one living/visiting a country should follow the rules forced there.

It would also be incredibly stupid as you would likely be involved in an accident

[Scotia]

And what makes other countries better or free to force their laws on their people than Nigeria ?

Are you seriously comparing driving laws which benifit and help keep safe all people, with religous laws that benifit the minority?

[Wesley]

No, even in Muslim majority countries in the early days of Islam, non-Muslims, called Dhimmi's, fell under Shari'a but were still allowed to privately practice their religion without fear of prosecution. Even the Seal of the Prophets, when approached by a Jew about the punishment for adultery, He imposed the Judaic law from the Torah, not the law from the Qur'an.

Example:

2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication -- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 24)

The Qur'an prescribes a specific punishment for adultery, regardless of who is married or unmarried.

20,10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death

(Torah (Law), Vayikra (Leviticus))

The Torah, in Leviticus, stated that anyone who commits adultery should be put to death.

44. It was We who revealed the Law (to Moses); therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)

The Qur'an actually states the Torah (Law) is a guidance and a Light. If the Jewish people do not judge by their Light (the Torah), they are no better than Unbelievers.


68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

69. Those who believe (in the Qur'án), those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)


Another confirmation from the Qur'an saying that those who follow the Torah, believe in Allah and the Last Day, work righteousness shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

Hadith Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar :

The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the Masjid."

This Hadith, although no Revelation, is the direct application of this concept stated in its historical context. Classic Muslim arguments say that the Hadith refers only to married people and the Qur'an flogging refers to unmarried people. This is untrue. The Seal of the Prophets, according to the Qur'an, judged the Jew by the Torah. The Jew had no idea what law to follow, as the Jew may have been aware of the Talmud or other Rabbanical laws not derived from the Torah. If the Jew did not believe in the Qur'an, why should God or His Messenger punish the Jew using a Revelation the Jew did not believe in? It would be an injustice to the Jew if this happened any other way. Thus, the Jew was punished via the Torah, the revelation the Jew would profess as the applicable Revelation.

The other argument made is the Qur'an abrogated all prior Scripture. Abrogation and the substitution of religious laws with a new Revelation only applies to those who believe in the new Revelation. As a Baha'i, I cannot impose Baha'i Law upon a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Christian, Jew, etc. as they do not believe in Baha'i Law. Even Jesus admonished the Jews for not following Jewish law.

23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

This is a constant in religion, God judging by what the believer says he/she believes.

[missjupiter]

UK driving rules are forced on any none UK resident, what if I drive on the same side I drive here in Cairo ? wouldn't that be against the rules they have forced on me ? And of course that goes to all other countries and their rules and laws. I see that any one living/visiting a country should follow the rules forced there.

Is it OK for UK to impose their traffic laws on Saudi Arabia? Is it OK for a Saudi to impose their traffic laws in the UK?

[missjupiter]

Let me revise please.

Is it OK for UK to impose their traffic laws on Saudi Arabia? Is it OK for a Saudi living in the UK to impose the Saudi traffic laws in the UK?

[Ron Shirt]

Let me revise please.

Is it OK for UK to impose their traffic laws on Saudi Arabia? Is it OK for a Saudi living in the UK to impose the Saudi traffic laws in the UK?

Perhaps it would be if they held a democratic vote on it ...


regards,

ron

[Scotia]

Perhaps it would be if they held a democratic vote on it ...
regards,

ron

eh?

[AHMAD_73]

I was reading the topic in the Politcal forum about Boko Haram and their goal to establish Sharia in Nigeria - which is not a Muslim majority country.

i'm not expert in Nigerian affairs, while to have a fair discussion in this point we have to have a member of both sides to clear his position. because media is some times seems to be bias, any way i believe not all the Islamic teratory in Nigeria apply shariea why they think about the christian areas?!!!

Is it allowed? I'm also curious because Muslim conquerers and caliphs in many instances made non-Muslims conform to Muslim rules - like Hindu women were made to dress more conservitively,

i'll check that, but generally not Islamic but moderate accourding the place culture. tell then, what is your opinion about some Europian democratic countries that forbides the Moslem women performing her obligations of covering the hair (in case of Islamic Hejab only) in the govermental places and forbiding Islamic Niqqab any where?

Christians and Jews could not/ had to ask for permission to build or repair churches and synagogues ,

generally for any religion/minority:
whithen the moderate limits, for example for each 1000 citizens withen that area they have the right to have such building. it's not good idea for 4 families some where to build a big worsiping building while the majority 5000 families don't have some thing like it. some small issues may lead to un-needed internal stress that may lead to big clashes.
that may happen any where, even in New york.

and barred prayer in public,

the Moslems where guarding the christians during there prayer in Tahreer square in Egypt, and vise versa, during the revolution period.
you know, few years ago the Egyption christian decided to have their mani prayer on friday, just at the Moslems main weakly prayer, Al-gomaa (so that the youth will not have chance to hear the Islamic khutba), they begin ranging the bills from 10:00 in the morning tell 13:00 or 14:00, what hapend,,,,,,,, no thing,,,,,peace

,

made to pay tribute, not allowed to display religious symbols in public. ,

you can see the tours of the churchs higher than that of the Masjeeds in many places in Egypt, since the opinning of Egypt tell that moment. while it's forbiden in some deocratic eurobian countries for Moslems to have Minirates for their Masjeds.

the Moslems have a good deal of tolerance and love for any other, why not try to read some thing about tolerance in Islam from Islamic point of view not others points of view,
you can have a history review about "tolerance of the others" since the rise of Islam tell now, to know what Islam means

Thank you too

[missjupiter]

Ahmad 73, as for prayer in public, I know that in many Muslim 'sharia' states like Saudi Arabia and UAE, it is illegal for non-Muslims to pray in public. Is this right according to Sharia? Tahrir square and Sharia are different things.

Boko Haram is an extremist group and they have said that they want to impose Sharia. Whether you choose to deny that fact because the media can't be trusted is your right.

Your comments haven't answered my question. Is it right for a Muslim person/country/caliph to impose sharia on non-Muslims? A simple yes or no answer will do. No one has answered that yet.

Thank you.

[Ron Shirt]

eh?

I was wondering if it would be OK to change the UK traffic laws in the UK to those of Saudi Arabia (for whatever reason), if there was a democratic vote on the matter.


ron

[Younes]

Yes, it is allowed for Muslims to impose Sharia on non-Muslims.

[Ron Shirt]

Yes, it is allowed for Muslims to impose Sharia on non-Muslims.

Even if the Muslims are in a minority?


ron

[Younes]

Even if the Muslims are in a minority?

Yes.

[Ron Shirt]

Yes.

So this would be what is called a dictatorship ..


ron