106 replies to this topic

[missjupiter]

I was referring to the other societies that surrounded them after they conquered the land.

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt" (Lev 19:33-34).

But as for those that were fought, it was a select group that were practicing incest, bestiality, violence....If people grow up in a culture that accepts things like murder and rape, very few will listen to their conscience and go against what everyone else says. Children learn wrong things from their parents and the surrounding culture; as they mature, they become part of the culture and perpetuate it by participating in it and passing on its teachings to their children.

However, those who were righteous were spared from the destruction. In the destruction of Jericho, Rahab and her family were spared because she feared God and chose to help the israelites (Josh 2:1-21, 6:22-25). Before the Amalekites were destroyed, their righteous neighbors were warned to move away (1 Sam 15:5-6). God promised not to destroy Sodom if there were but ten righteous people in the city (Gen 18:22-32), and in a later judgment against Jerusalem, promised to forgive the city if one righteous person was found in it (Jer 5:1).

Small children did not share the guilt of their parents. The Bible describes small children as not knowing right from wrong (Is 7:15-16), and in some cases, this meant that they were spared the earthly punishment their elders received. For example, when the israelites sinned during their wanderings in the desert, God forbid the adults from entering the promised land, but gave it to their children who were too young to be held responsible (Dt 1:34-39). The Bible also clearly teaches that one person is not held guilty for another's sin (Ezek 18). Therefore, the children who were killed would not face the same punishment in the afterlife as their parents.

Why were the children killed, if they weren't guilty? Apparently, they were considered as morally neutral, since they weren't yet old enough to be held accountable or to have done much right or wrong. While not as corrupt as their parents, they were part of the society that was judged, and shared its earthly (though not its eternal) fate. (Conversely, the family of a righteous person sometimes shared their relative's protection from earthly destruction; see Josh 6:22-25, Gen 19:12-13.) Often, when someone did something wrong and was punished while on earth, only the evildoer themselves was punished.

Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the israelites again and again. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul’s incomplete obedience almost resulted in israel’s destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.

In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.

[Ron Shirt]

If Sharia Law was established in Nigeria by an unelected group, then, yes, I would support it. However, this doesn't mean that I support what Boko Haram is doing. And yes, I guess in the language of the 21st century I would support a dictatorship.

I can't really get involved in this. So far as I can can see you're just a mixed up young guy living in a foreign country, who has some obsession with Islam and historical events.
And you don't even know who 'Boko Harem' is, or what they're doing.

But you support dictatorships - presumably, (to be kind to you), only the ones you decide are worthy of your 'support'.
A great guy to be an Islamic Forum Guardian!

Great!

ron

[missjupiter]

If Islam teaches that, you can't judge him...

[Younes]

I can't really get involved in this. So far as I can can see you're just a mixed up young guy living in a foreign country, who has some obsession with Islam and historical events.
And you don't even know who 'Boko Harem' is, or what they're doing.

What do you mean by a foreign country? I know enough about Boko Haram to not spell their name as Boko Harem. I know what they are doing.

[AHMAD_73]

They did not enforce Judaism on the pagan nations that surrounded them.

as i remember they massacared every living soul, even the animals, then enforce whom then? while that's not the point,

i can accept your statment about the Moslems just like the opinion of most of the fair scolars too,
A. J Toynbee, Mankind and Mother Earth, (N.Y.: Oxford University Press, 1976), p.12. he ill-informed may well suggest that the Prophet of Islam could have used force. But the ineffectiveness of force for such purpose is well recognised by all dispassionate students of sociology. Force may achieve submission but it inevitably achieves hostility, and very often hostility is so fierce that many a good cause has been lost when force has been employed for its advancement.


the point if the Jews, who have the truth of god at the time, didn't preach it, or they did?

[Ron Shirt]

If Islam teaches that, you can't judge him...

I didn't realise that Islam supports the concept of dictatorships. But possible that is exactly what they do do. In spite of what certain people seem to say about Iran and other former dictatorships.

I believe that my perceptions are based upon what I can see.

As they very well know Islam, just like any other religionis open to interpretation.
No, my current view is that the whole of Islam is controlled by those known as scholars (and others) and actually resembles a Mafia like organisation. Dissent is liable to be met with seroius retribution and that the vast majority of them do not like 'the Truth'.

Apart from all of this, I still would certainly not deny the reality of the Spiritual side of things, something which, so far as I can see is actually placed far behind following the letter of the 'Law' as they would see it.
Spirituality is simply between oneself and God. Never mind what they say.

Allah knows best,

Salaam

ron

[missjupiter]

as i remember they massacared every living soul, even the animals, then enforce whom then?

No, They did not enforce Judaism on the pagan nations that surrounded them. Familiarise yourself with the facts.

[missjupiter]

Spirituality is simply between oneself and God. Never mind what they say.

True

[AHMAD_73]

No, They did not enforce Judaism on the pagan nations that surrounded them. Familiarise yourself with the facts.

re-read my signature,,

did they advise them, show them the right and wrong? did they preach the god's truth to the god's servants?

[missjupiter]

So oppressing non-Muslims with Sharia is guidance in your view?

[Wesley]

Jews and Christians definately don't forbid what Allah and His Messenger, Muhammad (pbuh), forbid. They don't in reality have faith God and the Last Day. Jizyah is definately meant for the People of the Book, "righteous" or not. They definately don't acknowledge Islam and, yes, they are disbelievers. Jizyah might not be defined in the Qur'an but it is in the Sunnah. Even Zakat, which is more important than Jizyah, or even Salah (prayer), are not defined in the Qur'an. They are defined in the Sunnah.

Prayer and Zakat are defined in the Qur'an.

Don't in reality have faith in God and the Last Day? Would you like me to repeat the verse of the Qur'an where it says that Jews and Christians, who believe in Allah and His Last Day, uphold their law, and do righteousness have no fear of grievance?

Younes, are you an extremist who wants to impose a Shari'ah dictatorship in Nigeria. Since you just tried to justify that Christians aren't really Christians, and thus pagans, without acknowledging any verse or teaching about repentence, do you believe they should be killed?

[Younes]

Prayer and Zakat are defined in the Qur'an.

No, they are not defined. The details on how to pray are not in the Qur'an nor the amount of Zakat, when it is given etc.

Don't in reality have faith in God and the Last Day? Would you like me to repeat the verse of the Qur'an where it says that Jews and Christians, who believe in Allah and His Last Day, uphold their law, and do righteousness have no fear of grievance?

The Jews and the Christians of the past do believe in God and the Last Day. They are believers. However, those who reject Prophets (pbut) are not.

Younes, are you an extremist who wants to impose a Shari'ah dictatorship in Nigeria. Since you just tried to justify that Christians aren't really Christians, and thus pagans, without acknowledging any verse or teaching about repentence, do you believe they should be killed?

Who said they should be killed? I do want Sharia established in Nigera. However, not by killing innocent civilians.

[missjupiter]

Who said they should be killed? I do want Sharia established in Nigera. However, not by killing innocent civilians.

Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)

I asked:

Ok, I remember a verse where it says non-Muslims must accept Islam or be subdued and pay jizya or fight or die. So if they refuse sharia - and jizya which is allowed in sharia - can they be fought or enslaved?

Your answer:

Yes, to both.


So if those that refuse the Sharia are killed, Sharia can then be established, right?

[missjupiter]

That's the verse you quoted.

[missjupiter]

I do want Sharia established in Nigera. However, not by killing innocent civilians.

Those that refuse Islam and Sharia have been killed in history, and can be according to you. So if they refuse, are they no longer innocent civilians?

[Younes]

Those that refuse Islam and Sharia have been killed in history, and can be according to you. So if they refuse, are they no longer innocent civilians?

If they don't fight, i.e. pick up arms, they are civilians.

[missjupiter]

If Younes holds extremist views in your opinion, were the rightly guided Caliphs wrong to impose Sharia upon non-Muslims, and fight/kill and enslave those that refused? Younes said it was the Sunnah of the prophet also, so was he an extremist in your view as well?

Edited by missjupiter, 07 January 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[AHMAD_73]

again, as normal, as usual, Media show what ever they like, with it's agenda (with 100X magnifier) and hide what ever they like, or give a small hint about (with 0.001 reducer), After Palestine, Chychnia, Afghanstan, Somalia, Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, kashmeer, ......the media is just controls the minds, distorting realities in Nigeria.

i cheched two Arabic sites about the Moslems in Nigeria, just a photo copy of the previous Moslem cases,

massacares to the Moslems 10 times more than the opposite,

2 years ago in Lagos 500 killings, 1000 injuries and 17,000 refugees of the Moslems, in few days.

i realy have no idea, how to know reality in such bias media ?!!!?!!

who controls the global media ??!!??

[missjupiter]

If they don't fight, i.e. pick up arms, they are civilians.

OK, I see. But what if they fought to resist enslavement or self-defence - as you said they could meet either fate by refusing Sharia?

Please answer comment #53.

Thank you.

[missjupiter]

i realy have no idea, how to know reality in such bias media ?!!!?!!

The massacre rate you claim is unlikely to be true. Boko Haram and extremists are the ones letting off the most bombs and suicide attackers - not the Christians. You seem to believe media is biased when it shows reality you find hard to accept. No Muslim is perfect and there are extremist groups who do bad things. Accept it.