81 replies to this topic

[AhmedTi]

The Bible in English says, "God is not a man that He should sin, nor is He the son of man, that He should repent." - Book of Numbers, Old Testament, chapter 23, verse 19

Look what the Quran says (English Translation) about the Mary and Jesus

Surat Mery

16. And mention in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern location.
17. She screened herself away from them, and We sent to her Our spirit, and He appeared to her as an immaculate human.
18. She said, “I take refuge from you in the Most Merciful, should you be righteous.”
19. He said, “I am only the messenger of your Lord, to give you the gift of a pure son.”
20. She said, “How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, and I was never unchaste?”
21. He said, “Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign for humanity, and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already decided.'“
22. So she carried him, and secluded herself with him in a remote place.
23. The labor-pains came upon her, by the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, “I wish I had died before this, and been completely forgotten.”
24. Whereupon he called her from beneath her: “Do not worry; your Lord has placed a stream beneath you.
25. And shake the trunk of the palm-tree towards you, and it will drop ripe dates by you.”
26. “So eat, and drink, and be consoled. And if you see any human, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Most Gracious, so I will not speak to any human today.'“
27. Then she came to her people, carrying him. They said, “O Mary, you have done something terrible.
28. O sister of Aaron, your father was not an evil man, and your mother was not a whore.”
29. So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to an infant in the crib?”
30. He said, “I am the servant of God. He has given me the Scripture, and made me a prophet.
31. And has made me blessed wherever I may be; and has enjoined on me prayer and charity, so long as I live.
32. And kind to my mother, and He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
33. So Peace is upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I get resurrected alive.”
34. That is Jesus son of Mary—the Word of truth about which they doubt.
35. It is not for God to have a child—glory be to Him. To have anything done, He says to it, “Be,” and it becomes.




By the way these Verses are far more betifule when you read them in Arabi the language of Quran itself.

[AhmedTi]

Dear Augustine

I would like to receive your comment in respect of this :

Mark, Chapter 12, Verse 29

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isn’t this clearly shows the oneness of God

[danieldemol]

Well you keep making contradictory statements, it seems. The Christian doctrine especially which is found in the NT emphasises that his soul was returned since he rose from the dead, and if the Qur'an in verse 3:55 testifies that his soul was not returned, there is still a contradiction...

Actually I don't, if you read back through this thread, you will notice that I acknowledge that the Christian interpretation of the Gospel differs from the Muslim interpretation of the Qur'an, then I also acknowledge the true meaning of the Gospel and the Qur'an to be the same.

The reason for this is because I don't see either the Christian interpretation of the Gospel, or the Muslim interpretation of the Qur'an as being wholly correct interpretations in all respects.

Thus you can see why pointing out contradictions between my interpretation and the Christian interpretation (which is not mine in all aspects) does not necessarily show self contradiction.

The Gospel does not state anywhere that the "soul was returned to the body", It says that the body was raised from the dead. The subtlety here is that the terms "body of Christ" and "dead" are used symbolically for a couple of things in the Gospel.

Thus dependant on whether one explores the symbolism demonstrably present in the Gospel, depends on what interpretation one gains from the Gospel.

Regarding the other issues you are raised, of course each one of them is worthy of individual intention since each are meaningful subjects, however to cover a dozen issues at once would do more to add confusion rather than clarification.

Kind regards.

[John Paul]

The Bible in English says, "God is not a man that He should sin, nor is He the son of man, that He should repent." - Book of Numbers, Old Testament, chapter 23, verse 19

Look what the Quran says (English Translation) about the Mary and Jesus

Surat Mery

16. And mention in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern location.
17. She screened herself away from them, and We sent to her Our spirit, and He appeared to her as an immaculate human.
18. She said, “I take refuge from you in the Most Merciful, should you be righteous.”
19. He said, “I am only the messenger of your Lord, to give you the gift of a pure son.”
20. She said, “How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, and I was never unchaste?”
21. He said, “Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign for humanity, and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already decided.'“
22. So she carried him, and secluded herself with him in a remote place.
23. The labor-pains came upon her, by the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, “I wish I had died before this, and been completely forgotten.”
24. Whereupon he called her from beneath her: “Do not worry; your Lord has placed a stream beneath you.
25. And shake the trunk of the palm-tree towards you, and it will drop ripe dates by you.”
26. “So eat, and drink, and be consoled. And if you see any human, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Most Gracious, so I will not speak to any human today.'“
27. Then she came to her people, carrying him. They said, “O Mary, you have done something terrible.
28. O sister of Aaron, your father was not an evil man, and your mother was not a whore.”
29. So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to an infant in the crib?”
30. He said, “I am the servant of God. He has given me the Scripture, and made me a prophet.
31. And has made me blessed wherever I may be; and has enjoined on me prayer and charity, so long as I live.
32. And kind to my mother, and He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
33. So Peace is upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I get resurrected alive.”
34. That is Jesus son of Mary—the Word of truth about which they doubt.
35. It is not for God to have a child—glory be to Him. To have anything done, He says to it, “Be,” and it becomes.




By the way these Verses are far more betifule when you read them in Arabi the language of Quran itself.

That’s nice but that does not directly answer my question regarding Islamic theology how God neglects the justice owed to Him.
You see my Muslim friends that are reading this post, every time I bring this up it’s always brushed aside and the Muslim remains ignorant…

God bless,

[John Paul]

Dear Augustine

I would like to receive your comment in respect of this :

Mark, Chapter 12, Verse 29

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isn’t this clearly shows the oneness of God

Of course it does. We Christians believe in one God.

God bless,

[Aa'dil]

Assalamu alaykum to my brothers and sisters in deen.
Peace to all.....

This thread has been interesting so far, I have read some and it's thought provoking from many points of view
This was a thread about the return of Jesus (peace unto him) but became a........ sacrifice issue?

Jonah/yunes (peace unto him) preached to a people and they accepted his words about Allah. This is according to the bible as well as the Qur'an. No instance or mention of needing a "divine sacrifice" to be accepted by Allah. Even Jesus (peace unto him) mentions that according to the gospels commonly accepted.

BUUUUT.... We (muslims) know that every nation/people/community had their own ritual of sacrifice to pronounce the name of Allah over animals to show the taqwa/piety/consciousness of our hearts.
QURAN: 22: 32- 34

As Wesley has already stated, it is not the blood that reaches Allah.


I don't post often but insha'Allah, i'll try and get back asap to any reply.

Peace.

[AhmedTi]

That’s nice but that does not directly answer my question regarding Islamic theology how God neglects the justice owed to Him.
You see my Muslim friends that are reading this post, every time I bring this up it’s always brushed aside and the Muslim remains ignorant…

God bless,

On the contrary, we as a Muslim believes that God is just and this clearly shown in Surat Az-Zalzalah

(1. When the earth quakes with its Zilzal.) (2. And when the earth throws out its burdens.) (3. And man will say: "What is the matter with it'') (4. That Day it will declare its information.) (5. Because your Lord will inspire it.) (6. That Day mankind will proceed in scattered groups that they may be shown their deeds.) (7. So, whosoever does good equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.) (8. And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.)

Yet, also believe that Allah is Merciful. Surat A-raaf verses 155 & 156

(155. And Musa chose out of his people seventy (of the best) men for Our appointed time and place of meeting, and when they were seized with a violent earthquake, he said: "O my Lord, if it had been Your Will, You could have destroyed them and me before; would You destroy us for the deeds of the foolish among us It is only Your trial by which You lead astray whom You will, and keep guided whom You will. You are our protector, so forgive us and have mercy on us: for You are the best of those who forgive.) (156. "And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have Hudna unto You.'' He said: (As to) My punishment I afflict therewith whom I will and My mercy embraces all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who have Taqwa, and give Zakah; and those who believe in Our Ayat.)


Surat A-raaf verses 155 & 156

(135. And those who, when they have committed Fahishah (immoral sin) or wronged themselves with evil, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins; and none can forgive sins but Allah, and do not persist in what (wrong) they have done, while they know.) (136. For such, the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers flowing underneath (Paradise), wherein they shall abide forever. How excellent is this reward for the doers (of good).)


Lastly I do apologize for being out from the main topic which is about the return of Jesus

[John Paul]

On the contrary, we as a Muslim believes that God is just and this clearly shown in Surat Az-Zalzalah

(1. When the earth quakes with its Zilzal.) (2. And when the earth throws out its burdens.) (3. And man will say: "What is the matter with it'') (4. That Day it will declare its information.) (5. Because your Lord will inspire it.) (6. That Day mankind will proceed in scattered groups that they may be shown their deeds.) (7. So, whosoever does good equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.) (8. And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.)

Yet, also believe that Allah is Merciful. Surat A-raaf verses 155 & 156

(155. And Musa chose out of his people seventy (of the best) men for Our appointed time and place of meeting, and when they were seized with a violent earthquake, he said: "O my Lord, if it had been Your Will, You could have destroyed them and me before; would You destroy us for the deeds of the foolish among us It is only Your trial by which You lead astray whom You will, and keep guided whom You will. You are our protector, so forgive us and have mercy on us: for You are the best of those who forgive.) (156. "And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have Hudna unto You.'' He said: (As to) My punishment I afflict therewith whom I will and My mercy embraces all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who have Taqwa, and give Zakah; and those who believe in Our Ayat.)


Surat A-raaf verses 155 & 156

(135. And those who, when they have committed Fahishah (immoral sin) or wronged themselves with evil, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins; and none can forgive sins but Allah, and do not persist in what (wrong) they have done, while they know.) (136. For such, the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers flowing underneath (Paradise), wherein they shall abide forever. How excellent is this reward for the doers (of good).)


Lastly I do apologize for being out from the main topic which is about the return of Jesus

Is punishing finite beings adequate satisfaction for an infinite offense? Nope.

God bless,

[AhmedTi]

Is punishing finite beings adequate satisfaction for an infinite offense? Nope.

God bless,

With my humble understanding that finite beings will be immortal in hereafter

[John Paul]

They remain finite because they will always have a beginning. Only God is infinite.

God bless,

[AhmedTi]

They remain finite because they will always have a beginning. Only God is infinite.

God bless,

I don’t know whether you believe that the Quran is a holy book from Allah/God as I do in respect of the Bible. Yet, as this fact will be in future, I can only refer to Quran as believe in the unseen and quote the below verse from Quran.

Surah 4- 56 & 57 – Nisaa (women)

56. Those who reject Our revelations—We will scorch them in a Fire. Every time their skins are cooked, We will replace them with other skins, so they will experience the suffering. God is Most Powerful, Most Wise.

57. As for those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them into Gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. They will have purified spouses therein, and We will admit them into a shady shade.

[John Paul]

With all respect sir, I see you cannot explain it logically so now you’re jumping to the Quran and giving a typical ignorant Muslim response “Because the Quran says so”. I see this conversation has reached a dead end.

I’ll leave you with this note – you can choose to continue live in ignorance or search for the truth.

God bless,

[AhmedTi]

Well, if ignorance means refusing to assign my sins to someone (Jesus) how did not committed and admitting that I’ll be responsible for everything I did in my life and for that I seek the Mercy of God, then I am.

Indeed this discussion has reached a deadlock. As such I’ll cease on this stage.

Lastly, please remember that this mere discussion

[Wesley]

As most in here believe Jesus will be back as part of the Last Day prophecies and its fulfillment, tell me

How will you know that it is in fact Jesus? The first time He came, most disbelieved.

Then should we bring it back to the original question? So far there have been discussions about some of the Muslim traditions regarding Jesus will return ruling with Shari'a and then also the actions Jesus will take against the Dajjal.

Still... how will a believer immediately know it is Jesus? As the Qur'an regularly states, Allah always tests those who believe.

[Aa'dil]

Then should we bring it back to the original question? So far there have been discussions about some of the Muslim traditions regarding Jesus will return ruling with Shari'a and then also the actions Jesus will take against the Dajjal.

Still... how will a believer immediately know it is Jesus? As the Qur'an regularly states, Allah always tests those who believe.

Ah yes, finally back on topic. Thank you Wesley

This is a very good question. For myself I would start by narrowing anybody down whether they claim to be somebody else or not, through their actions. I for one do not put much into hear say. For I am accountable for everything and will be questioned on Qiyamah (Qur'an 17:36).

1) Ask myself, does he practice Islam?

This is the main thing, if not then the whole thing of someone being a nabi/rasul/mu'min is out the window and can never be a rasul of Allah.

2) What does he ask from me/us?

If it's "aqim as salah, A too zakah" and the responsibility that implies and holding fast to Allah, good. That is what should be asked/expected of me/us (which in a nutshell is Islam). (Quran 22:78)

These are the main things, and you will find almost (?) any leader (of a nation) today lacking any desire to make the above priority.

If the person known as Ibn Maryam (peace upon them both) did return, and I lived to witness... I'm sure these would be priority
for him and I would have no problem following him or any person for that matter. That is what Islam calls us to do.

So the question for me isn't, is it Jesus (peace unto him)? As much as what a person is calling for. The Qur'an is clear, all the prophets (salamoon a lal mursaleen) asked from the people the same action, and same the belief La ilaha il lal (A)LLah (wal hamdu Lilah hir rabbil ala meen).



I speak only for myself, and may Allah forgive and guide me closer, amin.

[Wesley]

Ah yes, finally back on topic. Thank you Wesley

This is a very good question. For myself I would start by narrowing anybody down whether they claim to be somebody else or not, through their actions. I for one do not put much into hear say. For I am accountable for everything and will be questioned on Qiyamah (Qur'an 17:36).

1) Ask myself, does he practice Islam?

This is the main thing, if not then the whole thing of someone being a nabi/rasul/mu'min is out the window and can never be a rasul of Allah.

2) What does he ask from me/us?

Thank you for the response and genuine answer. I agree, it would be a wonderful opportunity to witness such an event, the Day of God basically. The criteria you state seems quite simple but I guess it must not be that simple.

If you think about it, Jesus V1.0 did follow the Torah, especially early in His ministry and Revelation. Yet, the majority of the people did not believe in Him. Jesus V1.0 also taught nothing evil yet the very claim He made, about being from God, a King, and Messiah, kept the people from believing in Him. They expected something different.

In your criteria #1, you say Jesus V2.0 would practice Islam. I agree Jesus V1.0 did submit Himself completely to the Will of God. The laws and outward practice were different than what was revealed in the Qur'an, but there is no doubt Jesus V1.0 practiced the true essence of Islam. The question then, what is God's Will for the Last Day? Will it be another chapter in His unending Book? Or will it be the same exact chapter?

Criteria #2, holding fast unto God. I agree with you again. What if Jesus V2.0 confirms that the Qur'an is true, that there is only one God, that the Seal of the Prophets is a Messenger, yet asks you to change your outward practice of religion, how would you react? An example would be the fasting. What if Jesus V2.0 changed the fast from Ramadan to a different month? No matter what, the purpose of fasting would be the same.

[Aa'dil]

Thank you for the response and genuine answer. I agree, it would be a wonderful opportunity to witness such an event, the Day of God basically. The criteria you state seems quite simple but I guess it must not be that simple.

I believe Allah made the criteria simple as stated in the Qur'an (the deen is not difficult) and earlier revelation, it just depends how hard are hearts are.
Allah knows best...

If you think about it, Jesus V1.0 did follow the Torah, especially early in His ministry and Revelation. Yet, the majority of the people did not believe in Him. Jesus V1.0 also taught nothing evil yet the very claim He made, about being from God, a King, and Messiah, kept the people from believing in Him. They expected something different.

You must remember bani Israil rejected and killed other prophets sent to them, not only Aesa Ibn Maryam (peace upon them).
Again, hard hearts....

The question then, what is God's Will for the Last Day? Will it be another chapter in His unending Book? Or will it be the same exact chapter?

To be honest, I don't really think about the future, I live day to day hope Allah purifies me and helps me fulfill my duties as a servant. We as people have a duty and even more so as "muslims" to enjoin the right, forbid the wrong and establish the deen, which is the same deen of Abraham, Noah, Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all) Quran 42:13.

Criteria #2, holding fast unto God. I agree with you again. What if Jesus V2.0 confirms that the Qur'an is true, that there is only one God, that the Seal of the Prophets is a Messenger, yet asks you to change your outward practice of religion, how would you react? An example would be the fasting. What if Jesus V2.0 changed the fast from Ramadan to a different month? No matter what, the purpose of fasting would be the same.

As far as anyone confirming the Qur'an as true, that's a must. To deny it you would deny the past revelation, prophets, events etc. And the whole changing the fast from Ramadan which is a couple weeks away by the way alhamdulillah, I guess it would seem innocent enough but Allah let us know that the Qur'an was revealed in that month so the fast is specifically prescribed that month (Qur'an 2:185). Would have to make du'a trust Allah, what else are we as hue-mans supposed to do right? If you're intention is sincere and your supplication, inshaAllah you will be guided.

Edited by Aa'dil, 05 July 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[Wesley]

As far as anyone confirming the Qur'an as true, that's a must. To deny it you would deny the past revelation, prophets, events etc. And the whole changing the fast from Ramadan which is a couple weeks away by the way alhamdulillah, I guess it would seem innocent enough but Allah let us know that the Qur'an was revealed in that month so the fast is specifically prescribed that month (Qur'an 2:185). Would have to make du'a trust Allah, what else are we as hue-mans supposed to do right? If you're intention is sincere and your supplication, inshaAllah you will be guided.

I agree. We must follow whatever God wills, even He commands us to do something we had not done before, like He had in the Qur'an. Fasting was always prescribed but God said to do it during Ramadan in the Qur'an. This is Islam, doing what God wills. It isn't about human will. Now if Jesus comes back and speaks only at the command of God, would we be willing to listen to anything He says or will we say Jesus has no power to change anything on this Day of God?

[andalusi]

Then should we bring it back to the original question? So far there have been discussions about some of the Muslim traditions regarding Jesus will return ruling with Shari'a and then also the actions Jesus will take against the Dajjal.

Still... how will a believer immediately know it is Jesus? As the Qur'an regularly states, Allah always tests those who believe.

Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it.” Abu Huraira added “If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): — ‘And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them.” (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

How does Jesus عليه السلام look like?

Abu Huraira narrated that Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "There is no prophet between me and him (Jesus Christ عليه السلام ). He shall descend so, recognize him when you see him. He is a man of medium height, (his complexion) is between reddish and white; he will be between (or dressed in) two slightly yellowish garments; His head looks as if it is dripping water even though it is not wet. He will fight people in the cause (for the sake) of Islam, will break the Cross and kill the swine (pig) and abolish Jizya (tax on Christians and Jews); and Allah will put an end to all religious sects except Islam during his (Jesus') time. He (Jesus) will slay the Antichrist (Dajjal) and he will stay in the World for 40 years. Then, he will die and the Muslims will perform the funeral prayer for him." (Abu Dawud and Musnad Ahmad)

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "In the meantime, while the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down the Messiah son of Mary (Jesus عليه السلام). He (Jesus عليه السلام ) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower), dressed in the two yellow

garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels. When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down. Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches, and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight, will fall

dead. Then, the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the gate of Lud (a city 13 miles east of Tel Aviv, israel), and will kill him." (Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmizi, Ibn Majah).

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "The Daijal (Anti-Christ) will appear in my Ummah (nation), and will live for forty. Then Allah will send Jesus son of Mary عليه السلام. He (Jesus عليه السلام) will closely resemble 'Urwah bin Masud (a Companion of Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم ). He (Jesus عليه السلام) will pursue him (Anti-Christ) and kill him. Then, for seven years, the people will live in such a state that there will be no ill-will or enmity between any two individuals of them." (Sahih Muslim).

So when you see falling non-believers dead on the ground around him, then you will know it is jesus:

"...Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches, and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight, will fall dead."

[Wesley]

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "In the meantime, while the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down the Messiah son of Mary (Jesus عليه السلام). He (Jesus عليه السلام ) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower), dressed in the two yellow

garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels. When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down. Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches, and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight, will fall

dead. Then, the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the gate of Lud (a city 13 miles east of Tel Aviv, israel), and will kill him." (Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmizi, Ibn Majah).

Not to be fickle, but the Masjid referred to in Damascus, the great Masjid, was built during the Umayyad Caliphate, well after the Seal of the Prophet ascended to heaven. Abu Huraira became a governor during this time. I have a hard time believing this narration and in my opinion, was wrongly attributed to the Prophet. Also, Damascus and this Masjid were never mentioned or referred to in the Qur'an. I cannot find which verses this clarifies.