103 replies to this topic

[monsart]

muslims pride themselvs on the fact they believe Islam is the logical and rational truth but i fail to see this if we analyse fairly.

god is all seeing and all knowing, he does not need to create, yet he does anyway, despite the fact he knows that the vast majority of his creation will fail this very dubious and confusing test and end up in hellfire yet creation is meant to be for our benefit? where is the logic and reason in that? would you create if it was up to you?

why do human beings deserve hellfire anyway, does it it seem like a reasonable and logical punishment, burning somones skin off over and over for eternity? for what? being un-grateful? would you burn somones skin off for being un-grateful?, the Quran says Allah loves people more than a mother loves her child, would a mother ever burn her childs skin off for being un-gratful? its rediculas.

if u were to say that is gods judgment, who are we to disagree with his choices. God has given you a mind to think with has he not? a mind to reason with? isnt the whole test of life to use logic and reason, like muslims always say, im a muslim because its the rational religion? where is the logic? if a christian told you that your only human and just because you cant understand how god can be man doesnt mean god cant be man you would not accept this as an awsner.

[Abu Firdaws]

muslims pride themselvs on the fact they believe Islam is the logical and rational truth but i fail to see this if we analyse fairly.

god is all seeing and all knowing, he does not need to create, yet he does anyway, despite the fact he knows that the vast majority of his creation will fail this very dubious and confusing test and end up in hellfire yet creation is meant to be for our benefit? where is the logic and reason in that? would you create if it was up to you?

why do human beings deserve hellfire anyway, does it it seem like a reasonable and logical punishment, burning somones skin off over and over for eternity? for what? being un-grateful? would you burn somones skin off for being un-grateful?, the Quran says Allah loves people more than a mother loves her child, would a mother ever burn her childs skin off for being un-gratful? its rediculas.

if u were to say that is gods judgment, who are we to disagree with his choices. God has given you a mind to think with has he not? a mind to reason with? isnt the whole test of life to use logic and reason, like muslims always say, im a muslim because its the rational religion? where is the logic? if a christian told you that your only human and just because you cant understand how god can be man doesnt mean god cant be man you would not accept this as an awsner.

Of course logic and reason play a part in ones faith, however, it's not what causes one to believe. At the end of the day it comes down to guidance, and I know that doesn't mean much to you, but that's what it is.

Now speaking of logic and reason, as an atheist why do you bother living? Is it logical for you to live this life only to die and forget about it? Wouldn't it be logical to spare yourself the unnecessary struggles of life and just take your own life? Everything you love and everything you worked for in this life will be lost -- so why do you bother?

[monsart]

Of course logic and reason play a part in ones faith, however, it's not what causes one to believe. At the end of the day it comes down to guidance, and I know that doesn't mean much to you, but that's what it is.

Now speaking of logic and reason, as an atheist why do you bother living? Is it logical for you to live this life only to die and forget about it? Wouldn't it be logical to spare yourself the unnecessary struggles of life and just take your own life? Everything you love and everything you worked for in this life will be lost -- so why do you bother?

guidance is no rational excuse for believing, if i said jesus is guiding me to be a born again christian would that make christianity true? if i stood up in a court of law and said i was divinly guided to kill people would i not go to jail?

as for athiest life being illogical, i live my life because i am a young healthy man who enjoy's it so i live it....where is the problem?

but at least you have in-directly admitted Islamic philosaphy is irrational, and people believe because of their feelings, i respect you for that

[Abu Firdaws]

guidance is no rational excuse for believing, if i said jesus is guiding me to be a born again christian would that make christianity true? if i stood up in a court of law and said i was divinly guided to kill people would i not go to jail?

as for athiest life being illogical, i live my life because i am a young healthy man who enjoy's it so i live it....where is the problem?

but at least you have in-directly admitted Islamic philosaphy is irrational, and people believe because of their feelings, i respect you for that

Of course, followers of every religion claim to be rightly guided, I wouldn't expect anything else.

You live your life because you are a young healthy man who enjoys it? But you're going to die, you're not going to remember anything, and no one will remember you. And I don't know how old you are but life isn't all fun and games, life is a struggle -- so why do you bother? Whether you enjoy life or not shouldn't matter, because you wont remember any of it; do you even remember what you did the previous year, month, or week?

The definition of the word atheist is "someone who denies the existence of god", do you deny the existence of God? I don't think you deny the existence of God, I think you're just unsure.

[monsart]

Of course, followers of every religion claim to be rightly guided, I wouldn't expect anything else.

You live your life because you are a young healthy man who enjoys it? But you're going to die, you're not going to remember anything, and no one will remember you. And I don't know how old you are but life isn't all fun and games, life is a struggle -- so why do you bother? Whether you enjoy life or not shouldn't matter, because you wont remember any of it; do you even remember what you did the previous year, month, or week?

The definition of the word atheist is "someone who denies the existence of god", do you deny the existence of God? I don't think you deny the existence of God, I think you're just unsure.

no i dont actually deny the exsistance of god, i dont like labels but if giving myself one makes things easier i guess you could call me an agnostic, i see no reason why there must be a god and i see no reason to follow any religion but i dont say theres no possibility of a creator.

well personally life is not a struggle, i am lucky, and happy of course that can change as i get older, so what if i dont remember much of it, why does that matter?

anyway your kind of changing the topic of my thred.

if your saying you follow a certain religion because you feel guided their, fine, as long as your a peaceful person i got no problem, its when muslims come forward and say Islam is the logical and reasonable religion, non religious people are the irrational ones, that i have an issue with.

[Abu Firdaws]

no i dont actually deny the exsistance of god, i dont like labels but if giving myself one makes things easier i guess you could call me an agnostic, i see no reason why there must be a god and i see no reason to follow any religion but i dont say theres no possibility of a creator.

well personally life is not a struggle, i am lucky, and happy of course that can change as i get older, so what if i dont remember much of it, why does that matter?

anyway your kind of changing the topic of my thred.

if your saying you follow a certain religion because you feel guided their, fine, as long as your a peaceful person i got no problem, its when muslims come forward and say Islam is the logical and reasonable religion, non religious people are the irrational ones, that i have an issue with.

Why are you an agnostic? If I was to say that an invisible monster was hiding in the cupboard would you consider that a possibility also?

I'm "lucky" too, I'm young, I'm happy with where I am in life, but that doesn't stop me from asking questions. And likewise, you too have unanswered questions, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I don't think you're saying Islam is illogical, you're asking us to prove that Islam is not illogical. And I don't believe Islam is illogical, you perceive it as being illogical because you don't know what Islam is about. You can't take aspects of faith such as belief in God without taking into consideration faith in its entirety.

Have you read the Qur'an?

[monsart]

Why are you an agnostic? If I was to say that an invisible monster was hiding in the cupboard would you consider that a possibility also?

I'm "lucky" too, I'm young, I'm happy with where I am in life, but that doesn't stop me from asking questions. And likewise, you too have unanswered questions, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I don't think you're saying Islam is illogical, you're asking us to prove that Islam is not illogical. And I don't believe Islam is illogical, you perceive it as being illogical because you don't know what Islam is about. You can't take aspects of faith such as belief in God without taking into consideration faith in its entirety.

Have you read the Qur'an?

yes i guess i would because technically speaking nothing is impossible.

i am asking questions, how is Islam logical? "i dont know what Islam is about" i know a great deal about Islam, i have analysed and rationalised, and it is illogical in my mind but as i said, if Islam is a faith based religion fine, but most muslims i speak to dont see it that way.

[monsart]

yes i have read the quran, well some of it, it was boring

[Abu Firdaws]

yes i guess i would because technically speaking nothing is impossible.

Well, if you're not prepared to be honest with yourself and with me then we might as well end the discussion now.

[monsart]

Well, if you're not prepared to be honest with yourself and with me then we might as well end the discussion now.

lol if you told me their was an invisable monster in my cuboard i wouldnt believe you but technically you would have to consider it as a possibility because you cant disprove it, understand? that is how i see belief in god

[Abu Firdaws]

lol if you told me their was an invisable monster in my cuboard i wouldnt believe you but technically you would have to consider it as a possibility because you cant disprove it, understand? that is how i see belief in god

No, because that's not how us humans work. If I told you an invisible monster was in your cupboard under no circumstance would you consider it a possibility, and even if you say otherwise deep down inside you would know it's not true. At the end of the day however logical/illogical something may seem you make a judgement, and that's what I would define as guidance, and we believe that guidance comes from God.

Be honest, do you think it's more likely that there is a creator or more likely that there is not?

[monsart]

No, because that's not how us humans work. If I told you an invisible monster was in your cupboard under no circumstance would you consider it a possibility, and even if you say otherwise deep down inside you would know it's not true. At the end of the day however logical/illogical something may seem you make a judgement, and that's what I would define as guidance, and we believe that guidance comes from God.

Be honest, do you think it's more likely that there is a creator or more likely that there is not?

deep down you feel its not true because you dont believe it, however rationally speaking nothing is absolute. so your saying Islam is a faith based religion and it doesnt matter it doesnt make sense? thats fine because faith is no rational reason to believe, common sense tells you that

to you last question i really dont know and i dont see what that has to do with the thred, if you believe in god it doesnt mean Islam is true, athiests make some really great and sound points about the universe and life but im not sure about everything they say.

[Abu Firdaws]

deep down you feel its not true because you dont believe it, however rationally speaking nothing is absolute. so your saying Islam is a faith based religion and it doesnt matter it doesnt make sense? thats fine because faith is no rational reason to believe, common sense tells you that

to you last question i really dont know and i dont see what that has to do with the thred, if you believe in god it doesnt mean Islam is true, athiests make some really great and sound points about the universe and life but im not sure about everything they say.

No, I'm not saying that Islam doesn't make sense, Islam makes perfect sense, otherwise I wouldn't be a Muslim. But at the same time we believe in guidance, some will be guided to the truth, and some will be blinded to the truth (which is of their own doing).

I think my question is relevant because it is related to what you hinted at, which was the assumption that God is unjust and would punish people because they didn't believe (although they had no proof). Well, that's not true, because deep down inside you know that there is a possibility of God existing (which you said yourself) -- so what have you done to try and seek out the truth? Are you actively seeking the truth or are you suppressing it? And this relates to my question about death, deep down inside you know that you will die, but you suppress that because as a human being you want to cling on to life. If you truly understood (I used the word understood, not believed) that you would die then would you see life as you see it now?

[monsart]

No, I'm not saying that Islam doesn't make sense, Islam makes perfect sense, otherwise I wouldn't be a Muslim. But at the same time we believe in guidance, some will be guided to the truth, and some will be blinded to the truth (which is of their own doing).

I think my question is relevant because it is related to what you hinted at, which was the assumption that God is unjust and would punish people because they didn't believe (although they had no proof). Well, that's not true, because deep down inside you know that there is a possibility of God existing (which you said yourself) -- so what have you done to try and seek out the truth? Are you actively seeking the truth or are you suppressing it? And this relates to my question about death, deep down inside you know that you will die, but you suppress that because as a human being you want to cling on to life. If you truly understood (I used the word understood, not believed) that you would die then would you see life as you see it now?

i feel like i am repeating myself, when you talk about this "deep down inside you know there is a possibility" is no rational explanation for being a muslim, i dont even want to discuss it because it's so obvious, saying that i feel god is no logical reason to believe, how do you know it is god and not your emotions? this can easily explained to be just an emotional desire to want a purpose and a meaning, this is why people all over the world have to capacity to believe in all sorts of irrational rediculas beliefs, people find a religion they like and they give their heart to it and say they can feel it, do you believe christians when they say jesus tells them to be a chirstian? you you believe people when they say they have healing powers from god? if i told you i feel fairies you would probably tell me to get some professional help. saying that i feel god is no logical reason to believe and is not somthing im intrested in discusing.

yes of course i have been looking, what do you think i am doing here? i listen to allot of lectures and read allot about philospahy and religion and have lost all hope in chirstianity and hinduism etc because they all boil down to feeling god or having some kind of revalation, the only religion which i see boasting about being rational and logical is Islam so here i am wanting to discuss this rational and logical proof.

you say it is rational and makes sense? so why have you not awsnerd my original post?

[Redeem]

Topic name changed to the description.

Salam.

[Redeem]

god is all seeing and all knowing, he does not need to create, yet he does anyway,

I don't need to drink coke. But I do it anyway. Are you saying that makes me illogical?

Also, I can think of plenty of rational reasons why I should steal or murder. You said God gave us minds to think with. So should I use my mind to conclude that murdering and stealing are logical and rational human behaviors?

Salam.

[monsart]

I don't need to drink coke. But I do it anyway. Are you saying that makes me illogical?

Also, I can think of plenty of rational reasons why I should steal or murder. You said God gave us minds to think with. So should I use my mind to conclude that murdering and stealing are logical and rational human behaviors?

Salam.

your taking my quote out of context im saying he doesnt need to create but does anyway DESPITE most of his creation will go to hell

you can think of rational reasons to steal or murder? like?

[Redeem]

your taking my quote out of context im saying he doesnt need to create but does anyway DESPITE most of his creation will go to hell

So then you agree that doing something even if you don't have to do it isn't illogical in itself. Just getting that out of the way.

As for God creating people despite the fact that most go to Hell, are you arguing that this is illogical? Or are you arguing that this is immoral? Because those are two entirely different things. It's perfectly logical for God to create people despite the fact that they will go to Hell. Because He didn't create them for Hell. Their own actions have led them to that fate and for that, they are to blame. on the other hand, God created them because He wanted to. Because, as I mentioned above, it's not illogical to do something even if you don't have to.

you can think of rational reasons to steal or murder? like?

Why work and save up for something when you can just steal it? Why allow someone to have something you want when you can kill them for it? And you might argue that these things are illegal, but why should they be? We should be celebrating man's ability to think logically at all times, not punish it. Right?

Salam.

[monsart]

So then you agree that doing something even if you don't have to do it isn't illogical in itself. Just getting that out of the way.

As for God creating people despite the fact that most go to Hell, are you arguing that this is illogical? Or are you arguing that this is immoral? Because those are two entirely different things. It's perfectly logical for God to create people despite the fact that they will go to Hell. Because He didn't create them for Hell. Their own actions have led them to that fate and for that, they are to blame. on the other hand, God created them because He wanted to. Because, as I mentioned above, it's not illogical to do something even if you don't have to.
Why work and save up for something when you can just steal it? Why allow someone to have something you want when you can kill them for it? And you might argue that these things are illegal, but why should they be? We should be celebrating man's ability to think logically at all times, not punish it. Right?

Salam.

god did not create people for hell yet he still knew where they were going to end up before he created them, why would he create somone when he knows they are going to hellfire? would you for example have your own child if you knew they would be a seriel killer and end up in prison for the rest of their life, no.

your secound point is simple, for one you know its unfair on the other person, so rationally you should decide not to. Even if we over-look that point, people need to live as a fair community to survive, if you steal and murder in the end it will effect you in a negative way because society woul break down and other people will steal and murder you.

[Redeem]

god did not create people for hell yet he still knew where they were going to end up before he created them, why would he create somone when he knows they are going to hellfire? would you for example have your own child if you knew they would be a seriel killer and end up in prison for the rest of their life, no.

Of course I would have my own child if I knew he would end up a serial killer. I wouldn't deprive someone of the chance to live and make their own choices.

God gave man life and told him to use it wisely. What man chooses to do with it is entirely on him. God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with it, nor does it cause the individual to enter Hellfire. After all, God is not the one who is being tested here. It is man.

your secound point is simple, for one you know its unfair on the other person, so rationally you should decide not to. Even if we over-look that point, people need to live as a fair community to survive, if you steal and murder in the end it will effect you in a negative way because society woul break down and other people will steal and murder you.

Fairness or unfairness is an issue of ethics, so I won't address that.

As for the second, what if I'm someone who thrives on violence? What if I do want society to fall apart so that I will be the one who reaps the benefits? This happens all over the world, you know. Tyrants and oppressive people and the like constantly justify their misdeeds with logic or reason. All one needs to do is look into the new imperialism age, for example, and see perfectly logical reasons given for colonizing Africa (i.e. civilizing the uncivilized).

My point is that just because something makes sense, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. And it's also possible for two people to argue against each other and both use logic. For example:

"The sun is very far away because sunlight takes eight whole minutes to reach us".
vs
"The sun is very close because it only takes sunlight eight minutes to reach us".

Both use the same facts. Both use logic. But they're counter-arguments. "Logic" is no more than an individual's ability to make sense of the world. But your logic isn't someone else's, and vice versa.

Salam.