103 replies to this topic

[Abu Firdaws]

You cannot have free will if your fate is known in advance.......your fate is all ready known...can you grasp this concept?

And if your fate is all ready known how can you have free will?

That is of course if you believe in an Omnipotent god.

Unless you wish to claim that Allah is not Omnipotent?

I dont know how clearer i can make this, you either have an Omnipotent god or you have free will, you cant have both. They are not compatable.

Are you being serious? Are you telling me that if I was to know what happens in your future, then you no longer have free will? Does that also mean that if I know your past you never had free will to begin with? Explain.

[Scotia]

Decisions we make now affect our future not our past, so not sure what point your trying to make there.

And some1 seeing into the future isnt the same as a god knowing all then creating us anyway.

You clearly know nothing of logic if you cannot grasp what im saying here, so i have to use some poetic arabic to spell it out to you?

[Abu Firdaws]

Decisions we make now affect our future not our past, so not sure what point your trying to make there.

And some1 seeing into the future isnt the same as a god knowing all then creating us anyway.

You clearly know nothing of logic if you cannot grasp what im saying here, so i have to use some poetic arabic to spell it out to you?

Does the fact that God knows what you are going to do before you do it mean you have no free will? Do you even know what free will is? Have you even thought about this or are you just happy to be ignorant and arrogant about it?

[monsart]

Of course you still have free will, what on earth are you talking about? The fact that God knows the choices you are going to make doesn't mean you don't have free will.

God knows what you are going to do, but do you? If God was to simply put you into Hell because He knew you were no good then you would come to Him on the Day of Judgement and ask Him for what reason were you sent to Hell. Instead God has put us on this earth and given us free will, whether we go to Heaven or Hell is tied to our own actions, and we will all be held to account for our actions; you will have no argument against God.

i got a good question for you then, why does god decide some people die at say 70 when some people die at age 80. i could say if you had given me 10 years longer i could of realised the "truth"

[Scotia]

Does the fact that God knows what you are going to do before you do it mean you have no free will? Do you even know what free will is? Have you even thought about this or are you just happy to be ignorant and arrogant about it?

"Does the fact that God knows what you are going to do before you do it mean you have no free will?"

yes quite clearly.

" Do you even know what free will is?"

Yes, do you?

" Have you even thought about this or are you just happy to be ignorant and arrogant about it?"

Yes i have thought about it, thats how i arrived at the conclusion that i have. Have you thought about it or did you read up on a scholar whos job it is, is to re-affirm your believe in a particular religon?

[Abu Firdaws]

"Does the fact that God knows what you are going to do before you do it mean you have no free will?"

yes quite clearly.

" Do you even know what free will is?"

Yes, do you?

" Have you even thought about this or are you just happy to be ignorant and arrogant about it?"

Yes i have thought about it, thats how i arrived at the conclusion that i have. Have you thought about it or did you read up on a scholar whos job it is, is to re-affirm your believe in a particular religon?

Well, I can't understand how you have come to that conclusion. And no, I don't need a scholar to tell me that God knowing the future doesn't take away from our free will. Let's see what monsart thinks... monsart as an atheist do you agree with what he has said?

[Abu Firdaws]

i got a good question for you then, why does god decide some people die at say 70 when some people die at age 80. i could say if you had given me 10 years longer i could of realised the "truth"

Realising the truth isn't tied to how long or how short your life is; those who disbelieve would disbelieve even if they were given 10 lifetimes.

[Scotia]

Realising the truth isn't tied to how long or how short your life is; those who disbelieve would disbelieve even if they were given 10 lifetimes.

Ah so you admit there is no free will in Islam then?

Otherwise those who disbelieve might decide to believe at least once in 10 lifetimes.

[monsart]

Realising the truth isn't tied to how long or how short your life is; those who disbelieve would disbelieve even if they were given 10 lifetimes.

so if you said to god why didnt i live longer he could say that and you would believe him, so why doesn't he doesnt just put people into hell and heaven and if you ask why he would just say i know what you would of done in life?

[Abu Firdaws]

Ah so you admit there is no free will in Islam then?

Otherwise those who disbelieve might decide to believe at least once in 10 lifetimes.

No, what I am saying is that those who go to Hell and are deserving of it would never believe even if they were given 10 lifetimes. I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying that they wouldn't.

[Scotia]

No, what I am saying is that those who go to Hell and are deserving of it would never believe even if they were given 10 lifetimes. I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying that they wouldn't.

Then why does god bother creating disbelievers then?

They clearly have no free will so there are doomed for hell.

[Abu Firdaws]

so if you said to god why didnt i live longer he could say that and you would believe him, so why doesn't he doesnt just put people into hell and heaven and if you ask why he would just say i know what you would of done in life?

Ok, well let's think about this logically... so suppose God was to extend the lifespan of humans to 1000 years -- what would that mean? And does that stop people from then asking God "Why didn't you allow us to live 2000 years?" In fact, Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) called his people to faith for 950 years, and the majority did not accept.

Allaah revealed in the Qur'an "Indeed We sent Noah to his people and he stayed among them a thousand years less fifty years (inviting them to believe in the Oneness of Allah (Monotheism) and discard the false gods and other deities)." [29:14]

Allaah also revealed "And it was inspired to Nuh (Noah): "None of your people will believe except those who have believed already. So be not sad because of what they used to do."" [11:36]

[Abu Firdaws]

Then why does god bother creating disbelievers then?

They clearly have no free will so there are doomed for hell.

God knows the CHOICES you are going to make, YOU still MADE those CHOICES yourself. If you can't understand this then perhaps it's better we don't continue the discussion.

[monsart]

Ok, well let's think about this logically... so suppose God was to extend the lifespan of humans to 1000 years -- what would that mean? And does that stop people from then asking God "Why didn't you allow us to live 2000 years?" In fact, Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) called his people to faith for 950 years, and the majority did not accept.

Allaah revealed in the Qur'an "Indeed We sent Noah to his people and he stayed among them a thousand years less fifty years (inviting them to believe in the Oneness of Allah (Monotheism) and discard the false gods and other deities)." (29:14)

Allaah also revealed "And it was inspired to Nuh (Noah): "None of your people will believe except those who have believed already. So be not sad because of what they used to do."" [11:36]

so what is the point in this life at all? what i mean is, you say we have this life to show disbelievers they deserve helfire but when they die they have to take gods word that they never would have believed so why doesnt he just put people in hell and heaven and when they ask why they are there, god will just say i know if you would of disobayed me.

[Scotia]

God knows the CHOICES you are going to make, YOU still MADE those CHOICES yourself. If you can't understand this then perhaps it's better we don't continue the discussion.

I understand perfectly, the choices were made because we have no choice, as you have stated God all ready knows what choices we will make, hence we have no free will.

Thank you for making my point for me

[Abu Firdaws]

so what is the point in this life at all? what i mean is, you say we have this life to show disbelievers they deserve helfire but when they die they have to take gods word that they never would have believed so why doesnt he just put people in hell and heaven and when they ask why they are there, god will just say i know if you would of disobayed me.

I don't think that the disbelievers will have to take God's word for it, I think they will already know. An interesting lecture titled "Conversations in Heaven and Hell" can be found (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=_5khk2n7rjA"]here[/url] if you're interested in learning more, there are 4 parts in total.

[Abu Firdaws]

I understand perfectly, the choices were made because we have no choice, as you have stated God all ready knows what choices we will make, hence we have no free will.

Thank you for making my point for me

Thank you for making my point clear, that those who are misguided are blind and devoid of intellect.

God knows your actions even before you do, that in no way means that you are not in control of those actions... it's a very simple concept, but you clearly don't want to understand it for some reason and I honestly don't have the time to keep repeating myself.

[Scotia]

Oh you have resorted to insults, so soon though?

Anyhoo, "God knows your actions even before you do, that in no way means that you are not in control of those actions... it's a very simple concept"

Ok lets try a different angle here, If god creates some1 knowing that they will be a non believer, will that person defintately be a non believer?

There is no using free will to become a believer instead? and also proving god to be fallable?

Or has he created a non believer for the purpose of going to hell and nothing else?, which does not sound logical or rational.

[Abu Firdaws]

Oh you have resorted to insults, so soon though?

Anyhoo, "God knows your actions even before you do, that in no way means that you are not in control of those actions... it's a very simple concept"

Ok lets try a different angle here, If god creates some1 knowing that they will be a non believer, will that person defintately be a non believer?

There is no using free will to become a believer instead? and also proving god to be fallable?

Or has he created a non believer for the purpose of going to hell and nothing else?, which does not sound logical or rational.

I'm not insulting you, I'm pointing out that you cannot understand a basic concept.

Last time I am going to say this... you make your decisions, but God knows what decisions you are going to make before you make them. There is absolutely no way that a sincere and honest person can fail to understand such a simple idea, therefore I wont waste any more of my time discussing this with you. If you want to discuss this then use the forum search function, it has already been discussed a number of times.

[monsart]

anyway me and you have both agreed that a believer's belief is not down to logic and reason so i am finished here


peace.