If there's no freewill, everybody will be muslims.
People put themselves in the fire, not God. It is you who choose to believe or not to beleive.
Hmm, everybody will be Muslims. Everybody will get heaven. Sounds like a good thing, doesn't it? Maybe God shouldn't have given us free will, if this were true. In any case we would always THINK we have free will, so it wouldn't matter.
People don't put themselves in the fire. That's like you start a forest fire. Then you throw anyone who is right-handed into the fire. Can you claim that the right-handed people put themselves in the fire? Of course, were they left-handed you would't have thrown them in the fire. Does this make any sense? You started the fire, you made the rules, not everyone knew the rules, and many people didn't agree with the rules, but you still executed your plan. Is this fair?
What you are doing here is the exact definition of someone who is misguided, you're sticking your fingers into your ears and not listening. If you're not willing to be sincere about hearing the message then I'm not willing to waste my time writing posts for nothing.
Really? Your input in this discussion was "this argument is so stupid it is beyond belief." Hmm I must have missed something important in that epitome of wisdom.
[size=3]Regarding Allah's knowledge of people's future as well as present, it is erroneous belief that that Allah can know Man's future only if the future is pre-determined - future of a free-willed creation cannot be predicted. [size=3]Therefore, TIME for GOD is one continuous Present. [using large font size is not allowed][size=3]In simpler words, then, Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take. Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man's future actions). [using large font size is not allowed]
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If God already knows what I am going to do, I cannot do otherwise. When you say God sees time as a continuous present, then God must have created the whole thing at once. Either way, it does not get around the problem that I am destined to do what God initially decided.
There are obvious logical inconsistencies if we say God is outside of time. For example, how can something outside of time cause anything? A cause logically precedes the effect. However, if God is outside of time he does not precede or come after the supposed effect of the universe.
Furthermore by this logic things like praying are useless because everything, for God, has already happened in the continuous realm of time He would perceive as "present".
However these things are really irrelevant to the point that we STILL wouldn't have free will.
Regarding Allah's knowledge of people's future as well as present, it is erroneous belief that that Allah can know Man's future only if the future is pre-determined - future of a free-willed creation cannot be predicted.
This conclusion has a basic flaw. The question of Allah's knowledge is linked with the problem of TIME. Simply, put there is a basic difference between Allah's knowledge and that of Man. The Quran cites the division of 'Earth time' into 'day and night' as among His great signs; also mentions the Sun and the Moon as instruments of calculation of time. This 'time' splits, for us earthly beings, into past, present and future. In the absolute sense, however these divisions of time do not exist. Time to Allah is an indivisible whole. Since we humans are incapable of perceiving this as an indivisible whole, no example may explain it. However, one may try to explain it, to a limited extent, with reference to SPACE. Sitting inside a house we have no knowledge of the events outside (invisible). But, for someone on the roof of the building, those events are visible. Allah is, in the Quranic words, "Knower of the visible as well as the invisible, i.e., what is invisible to Man is visible to Allah. Therefore, TIME for GOD is one continuous Present. In simpler words, then, Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take. Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man's future actions).
Again this is simply the illusion of free will. As long as God knows you cannot do anything but what God knows. Because you yourself don't know, you will think you have free will, but really it has "already" happened in the eyes of God. God must have created the whole universe including all of time at once, meaning everything is predestined.
Well, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that God's knowledge of time is completely differrent to our understanding of it? Also it would seem reasonable to assume that we know little of how God's actions are manifest in the world. This is why people pray and is surely the reason faith exists.
So it would seem that you have almost answered your original question. Free will doesn't 'actually' exist (if you believe in pre-destiny). Free will is only an illusion which we are bound to by our relationship with space, time and our knowledge of newton's laws which govern the physical universe (at least the part of it we know and can see). We 'think' we know what we are doing but this is actually only an illusion.
Peace,
ron
Sounds about right.
[size=3]Free will is not an illusion. Man is created responsible for all his actions which consequently bear results. The entire system of Reward & Punishment rests on Man’s being responsible for his actions. Responsibility has to come from freedom of choice. No freedom of choice, no responsibility. That’s why the Quran says (in 16:75-76) “The subjugated and the free can never be equal. Subsequently, one will be answerable only for actions committed out of free will (16:106). Also (in 33:5): “you won’t be held answerable for (an unintentional) mistake - only for one which you make with your heart’s intentionâ€. The same principle lies under the normal judicial law which distinguishes between intentional (cold-blooded) and unintentional (warm-blooded or accidental) murder, proposing different punishments for them (4:92-93).
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[size=3]The Quran has resolved the problem of Freedom & Compulsion through the figurative story of Man. Both Man and Iblis (Devil) were given a command each. Both sinned (disobeyed the command). When Adam (Man) was asked to explain; he responded with a regretful “O our Allah, we have done ourselves harm†(7:23). That is, Adam, by regreting and confessing to the disobedience, admitted the responsibility for the action. This gave him a chance of redemption. He was told not to worry (in 2:38): “ I will be giving guidance to you. Whoever follows it will become free of fear and griefâ€. This is the potential of regaining the lost Paradise. The Quran calls it ‘repentance to reform after having erred’ (16:119).
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[size=3]On the contrary, Iblis responded by blaming Allah for his action, citing his own lack of free will (7:16 and 15:39). Because he did not assume responsibility, Iblis had no chances of reform (15:34) and was reviled (7:18). He was ‘destined’ to eternal frustration (Iblis literally means frustrated). One who considers himself bound cannot improve his lot and remains frustrated for ever. [using large font size is not allowed]
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[size=3][using large font size is not allowed]The Quran says that the Devilish (Iblis) attitude of “I would not have sinned if You (Allah) had not wished so†is the line always taken by infidels and polytheists. They attribute their way of life to Allah’s will -- ‘we are what we are because Allah wills so’. As it is said in Sura An’aam: “When you question their (erroneous) way of life, the polytheists will say - ‘It is Allah’s will that we are, and our ancestors were, polytheists†(6:149). Allah rebuts that statement with: “Whatever you say (and follow) is nothing but pure conjecture (and ignorance)â€. In Sura Zakhraf, it says that when you (the Prophet) question them, they say: ‘We would never have prayed to these idols if God did not will itâ€. Allah said, “this is just ignorance. They are nothing but conjectures.†(43:20). Sura Yaseen reports that when the rich are asked to let their wealth flown down to the poor, the infidels reply: ‘How can we enrich those who are poor by Allah’s will?â€. The Quran’s response to that is : “surely, you are in grave ignorance!†(36:47). [using large font size is not allowed]
What exactly are you presenting as evidence that free will is not an illusion? The best one could logically deduce from your answer is that if there is no free will there is no responsibility (though I disagree with this). This in no way suggests that there IS free will.
The only way that we would have no choice is if God's foreknowledge caused us to do what we do. Think of it this way. I was given knowledge that, ten years from now, you will do something. Does that mean the choice is no longer yours because I know that you will make it even before you do? If yes, then we don't seem to have a similar understanding of what free will entails. If no, then think of free will like that, in a simplified way. Choice is not dictated by foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge doesn't decide our choices for us. We, in this very present, are actively living out the choices that we have control over. Unless there is a causal relationship in effect, there is no association that if one exists, the other doesn't.
Salam.
Now you are trying to isolate God's knowledge. God also created everything. So yes, God's knowledge WOULD cause me to do what I do, because God's knowledge is accompanied inescapably with God creating it such that His knowledge is true. So it is like you said, I know that 10 years from now I will shoot you. In this scenario I make no choice, things happened just as you knew and just as you made happen.
I offer this quote and thought from Luther on free will. Sorry a little late to the party.
“Mankind has a free will; but it is free to milk cows and to build houses, nothing more.â€
Way too philosophical for me to handle!
