61 replies to this topic

[StopS]

In the Koran we have a claim in 14:4, saying

We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. (Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

I will ignore the rest, which is highly controversial and only concentrate on the first part.

It says that messengers were sent to tribes or nations to make this message clear to them in "their" language.

1. was this one messenger?
2. were these several messengers?
3. were these messengers sent to EVERY tribe or nation?

4. were they speaking the language of the recipient tribe?
5. were they speaking the language of the individual messenger's tribe?
6. were they speaking the language of Muhammad's tribe?

There is a caveat or two here: if anyone jumps to the intuitive solution, please consider that if a messenger was sent to every nation and the language used was that of the recipients, because everybody needed to know and they needed to know in their language, this implies that there was a perfect translation of the Koran, which is impossible - or not?
If everybody was informed, how did people travel to Antarctica, Iceland, South America and New Zealand, all places unknown to whoever wrote the Koran.

[Younes]

This verse is speaking about the Messengers (pbut) of the past, so it is talking about several Messengers (pbuh).

[ParadiseLost]

All the messengers of Allah were Muslim. Allah sent messengers to every nation so that when it is Judgement Day people cannot say they did not know about Allah. Muhammad pbuh is the only messenger that was sent to all of mankind and his message was the quran.
In the quran only some of the stories of messengers before Muhammad are told to us. However, Allah does tell us that there are messengers that came before Muhammad whose story has not been told to us.

And, indeed We have sent messengers before you (O Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã): of some of them We have related to you their story. And of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. But, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (40:78)

[StopS]

This verse is speaking about the Messengers (pbut) of the past, so it is talking about several Messengers (pbuh).

Thanks. You say that "We sent not an apostle" is not singular (an apostle), but plural.
OK, so were they from Arabia? What language did they speak when conveying the message?

[Younes]

Thanks. You say that "We sent not an apostle" is not singular (an apostle), but plural.
OK, so were they from Arabia? What language did they speak when conveying the message?

Yes, "apostle" is obviously in the singular, but it is talking about multiple Messengers (pbuh). To give you an example, if I say, "There was no President during the history of the United States except that he spoke English", I am speaking of multiple Presidents although the word "President" is in the singular.

Some were from the Arabian Peninsula, others were not. They spoke the language of the people they were sent to. That means that not everybody spoke Arabic.

[StopS]

All the messengers of Allah were Muslim. Allah sent messengers to every nation so that when it is Judgement Day people cannot say they did not know about Allah. Muhammad pbuh is the only messenger that was sent to all of mankind and his message was the quran.
In the quran only some of the stories of messengers before Muhammad are told to us. However, Allah does tell us that there are messengers that came before Muhammad whose story has not been told to us.

And, indeed We have sent messengers before you (O Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã): of some of them We have related to you their story. And of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. But, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (40:78)

So you say there were many more messengers. And Moses, Jesus, etc. were not meant for all mankind? And doesn't 2:136 mention: We make no difference between one and another of them?

They went everywhere? How? What about tribes in remote areas that today don't even have the word god in their vocabulary and don't understand what a god is?

What about the language of these messengers???

[Younes]

So you say there were many more messengers. And Moses, Jesus, etc. were not meant for all mankind? And doesn't 2:136 mention: We make no difference between one and another of them?

Yes, there more Messengers (pbut) than Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and the rest of the Messengers (pbut) mentioned in the Qur'an. The part about not making distinctions between Messengers (pbut) refers to not making disctinctions by saying this one is a Messenger and this one is not, i.e. reject him.

They went everywhere? How? What about tribes in remote areas that today don't even have the word god in their vocabulary and don't understand what a god is?
What about the language of these messengers???

Messengers (pbut) being sent to every nation doesn't mean that every tribe or most tribes even are going to know about God. If their great-great-ancestors received a Messenger, it is not surpising that most tribes or even most great nations don't know about God because the Messenger came such long time ago.

[ParadiseLost]

So you say there were many more messengers. And Moses, Jesus, etc. were not meant for all mankind? And doesn't 2:136 mention: We make no difference between one and another of them?

Yes there were more messengers.
Moses and Jesus were sent to a particular nation.
Yes 2:136 says:
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Îsa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

We do not discriminate between them is in reference to the message they brought. Of course they were different people, with a different appearance and a different personality but as messengers of Allah they all brought the truth and therefore as Muslims we must accept them all. That is because they were all believers in the oneness of Allah and guided people to the right way. “Those who accept one Prophet and reject the other really reject even the one whom they profess to accept. Had they followed the universal Guidance taught by Moses, Jesus and other Prophets, they could not have rejected any other Prophet (i.e. Muhammad, Allah's peace be upon him). As a matter of fact, they were not following the teachings of any Prophet, but merely professing to accept their own Prophets just because their fathers did so. Thus their real religion was prejudice, race-worship and blind imitation of their forefathers.” (Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi).
The Messenger (Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say), "Wemake no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)." (2:285)

They went everywhere? How? What about tribes in remote areas that today don't even have the word god in their vocabulary and don't understand what a god is?

Nobody claimed they went everywhere in the world at the same time. They were born in particular places and gave the message to their people. We are talking about so so many years ago the first messenger Adam pbuh was sent. Had he been the only messenger sent for all time then I am sure a lot of people would be disbelievers today. Thankfully Allah is so Merciful he continued to send messengers to remind them about what they had forgotten. Even when people had their messenger with them they continued to disobey God - take for example the story of Moses and how his people worshipped the cow. So if people actually do that I don't find it surprising that there are some people today who don't believe in God even when they are surrounded by the message. For example even today people who are born into a Muslim family may live a life that does not represent Islam because they chose not to even though they are aware of Islam.

For people who have never come into contact with what Islam is Allah will test them in another way. One of the attributes of Allah is that He is Just so He would never punish anyone who didn’t deserve it.

What about the language of these messengers???

I do not know the languages of every single messenger of Allah.

[StopS]

Yes, "apostle" is obviously in the singular, but it is talking about multiple Messengers (pbuh). To give you an example, if I say, "There was no President during the history of the United States except that he spoke English", I am speaking of multiple Presidents although the word "President" is in the singular.

Some were from the Arabian Peninsula, others were not. They spoke the language of the people they were sent to. That means that not everybody spoke Arabic.

OK, I see what you mean. So the text is not so clear, but rather requires interpretation.

If these messengers spoke the language "of the people they were sent to", what I call the recipient language, it would imply that a perfect translation of the Koran for all those languages must have existed.
Where are they?

[StopS]

Yes, there more Messengers (pbut) than Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and the rest of the Messengers (pbut) mentioned in the Qur'an. The part about not making distinctions between Messengers (pbut) refers to not making disctinctions by saying this one is a Messenger and this one is not, i.e. reject him.

So the Koran says there is no difference between the messengers except for their roles?

Messengers (pbut) being sent to every nation doesn't mean that every tribe or most tribes even are going to know about God. If their great-great-ancestors received a Messenger, it is not surpising that most tribes or even most great nations don't know about God because the Messenger came such long time ago.

Well if we have a tribe that worships a god, why would they worship a different god than their ancestors did?
Does the Koran say where they went?
Does the Koran say when they went?
Not that I know of, so we are both speculating. It is not clear and not explained, is it?

I am still puzzled how messengers got to New Zealand and back and how they learnt all the different languages in Arabia before they left.
And why was the knowledge about all the continents lost a few years after the messengers went there. Seems to be a bit futile and nonsensical the whole exercise.

[Younes]

So the Koran says there is no difference between the messengers except for their roles?

I don't know what you mean by roles because the Messengers (pbut) all had the same role of calling people to God.

Well if we have a tribe that worships a god, why would they worship a different god than their ancestors did?

What I meant is that the ancestors of today's tribes received Messengers (pbut) but they, the ancestors, rejected the Messengers (pbuh) and the belief in the True God. That's why their descendants are astray, too. Furthermore, beliefs do change due to various reasons like proselytizing, forced conversions, the religion changes etc. There are a lot of reasons why a tribe doesn't necessarily worship a god which their ancestors worshipped.

Does the Koran say where they went?
Does the Koran say when they went?
Not that I know of, so we are both speculating. It is not clear and not explained, is it?

No, the Qur'an doesn't tell the story of every Messenger. The Qur'an says that there are Messengers whose stories have not been told.

I am still puzzled how messengers got to New Zealand and back and how they learnt all the different languages in Arabia before they left.
And why was the knowledge about all the continents lost a few years after the messengers went there. Seems to be a bit futile and nonsensical the whole exercise.

The Messengers weren't all from Arabia. They were from amongst their people.

[StopS]

Yes there were more messengers.
Moses and Jesus were sent to a particular nation.
Yes 2:136 says:
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Îsa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

We do not discriminate between them is in reference to the message they brought. Of course they were different people, with a different appearance and a different personality but as messengers of Allah they all brought the truth and therefore as Muslims we must accept them all. That is because they were all believers in the oneness of Allah and guided people to the right way. “Those who accept one Prophet and reject the other really reject even the one whom they profess to accept. Had they followed the universal Guidance taught by Moses, Jesus and other Prophets, they could not have rejected any other Prophet (i.e. Muhammad, Allah's peace be upon him). As a matter of fact, they were not following the teachings of any Prophet, but merely professing to accept their own Prophets just because their fathers did so. Thus their real religion was prejudice, race-worship and blind imitation of their forefathers.” (Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi).

Does 14:4 specifically exclude Muhammad?
Wasn't Moses also sent to the Pharaoh and his people?
What about Jonah and Nineveh with the drowned Pharaoh?

Was Solomon given more powers than Jonah? If yes, well the wind, then what about the non-discrimination?

Nobody claimed they went everywhere in the world at the same time. They were born in particular places and gave the message to their people. We are talking about so so many years ago the first messenger Adam pbuh was sent. Had he been the only messenger sent for all time then I am sure a lot of people would be disbelievers today. Thankfully Allah is so Merciful he continued to send messengers to remind them about what they had forgotten. Even when people had their messenger with them they continued to disobey God - take for example the story of Moses and how his people worshipped the cow. So if people actually do that I don't find it surprising that there are some people today who don't believe in God even when they are surrounded by the message. For example even today people who are born into a Muslim family may live a life that does not represent Islam because they chose not to even though they are aware of Islam.

I don't understand. Humans are told from the day they were created by multiple messengers that there is one god. And a few years later they decide to worship another god? Where did this god come from?

For people who have never come into contact with what Islam is Allah will test them in another way. One of the attributes of Allah is that He is Just so He would never punish anyone who didn’t deserve it.

I do not know the languages of every single messenger of Allah.

Yes, I know. I will be one of those going to hell. Not because I am a bad person, but because I don't believe. A person who is bad and believes goes to heaven. Is that just? No, please ignore the last line, I just want to understand the 14:4 issue, which is still unclear to me.

[Younes]

OK, I see what you mean. So the text is not so clear, but rather requires interpretation.

No, the text is clear. I even gave you an equivalent from the English language.

[Younes]

Was Solomon given more powers than Jonah? If yes, well the wind, then what about the non-discrimination?

The Qur'an says that God favoured some Prophets (pbuh) above others. The discrimination that we are speaking about is saying so and so is a Prophet and so and so is a liar. To give you an example, the Jews believed in Moses (pbuh), however, they killed a lot of Prophets (pbuh) and belied them. This is the type of discrimination that is talked about.

[ParadiseLost]

I don't understand. Humans are told from the day they were created by multiple messengers that there is one god. And a few years later they decide to worship another god? Where did this god come from?

I gave the story of Moses as an example because you are saying if every nation got a messenger why don’t they believe in God today. The story of Moses is a good example because it shows that even when people had a messenger among them they didn’t worship God. Moses left his people for 40 nights and they returned to worshipping the cow even though they knew about God.
And (remember) when We appointed for Musa (Moses) forty nights, and (in his absence) you took the calf (for worship), and you were Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers). (2:51)

So it is not difficult for me to believe that when a messenger dies people can go back to their old ways and forget about God if people could do this in the absence of their messenger for just 40 nights.

[StopS]

The Qur'an says that God favoured some Prophets (pbuh) above others.

Yes 2:136 says: "We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

How does this fit together and how is this clear? I don't understand.

And I still don't know what language was spoken by whom to whom and when. How is this clear?

[StopS]

I gave the story of Moses as an example because you are saying if every nation got a messenger why don’t they believe in God today. The story of Moses is a good example because it shows that even when people had a messenger among them they didn’t worship God. Moses left his people for 40 nights and they returned to worshipping the cow even though they knew about God.
And (remember) when We appointed for Musa (Moses) forty nights, and (in his absence) you took the calf (for worship), and you were Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers). (2:51)

So it is not difficult for me to believe that when a messenger dies people can go back to their old ways and forget about God if people could do this in the absence of their messenger for just 40 nights.

I understand your point. How does this fit in with the Koran? It says that humans are created to worship.
So a god creates a human to get worshipped. The human does not.
So a god creates a human to get worshipped. The human does not.
So a god creates a human to get worshipped. The human does not.
So a god creates a human to get worshipped. The human does not.
So a god creates a human to get worshipped. This human finally does.

A god fails in 4 out of 5? Is that what you are saying? So if yes, how is this the fault of humans? Did the creator of those humans not know about this?
And if this creator god knew that 4 out 5 would not do what they were created for, why wasn't this stopped?

The Koran claims that messengers - or warners - were sent everywhere and to every nation to "make things clear". Did they fail?
Did they use the wrong language?
And again: how did they get to where they were going?

So many unanswered questions.....

[ParadiseLost]

I understand your point. How does this fit in with the Koran? It says that humans are created to worship.

A god fails in 4 out of 5? Is that what you are saying? So if yes, how is this the fault of humans? Did the creator of those humans not know about this?
And if this creator god knew that 4 out 5 would not do what they were created for, why wasn't this stopped?

The Koran claims that messengers - or warners - were sent everywhere and to every nation to "make things clear". Did they fail?
Did they use the wrong language?

God did not fail in anything. For God to fail it would mean that God is being tested. God created us to worship us does that mean He forces us to woship Him? No. God gave us free will to choose whether we want to believe or not. God would be unjust if He didnt send messengers but because God is Just He has sent messengers throughout the time. God gave us a brain to choose whether we want to believe in the messengers or not so it is only us who fails the test. God is not the one on test here it is us humans. The messengers did not fail as God says he will not hold them accountable for the people who rejected them. No person bears the sins of another in Islam.

In the example of Moses pbuh: Moses did not fail because he gave the message to the people it was then their decision whether to believe or not.

And (remember) the day when We shall raise up from each nation a witness (their messenger), then, those who disbelieved will not be given leave (to put forward excuses), nor will they be allowed (to return to the world) to repent and ask for Allah's Forgiveness (of their sins). (18:64)

And Allah will say on Judgement Day: O you assembly of jinn and mankind! "Did not there come to you messengers from amongst you, reciting unto you My Verses and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours?" They will say: "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. And they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6:130)

And again: how did they get to where they were going?

I don't know where you are getting the idea from that the messengers were in one part of the world and then travelled to New Zealand and then to America or something like this. Many of the messengers were from among their people so they were born in their community and they stayed among their people. Allah actually sent a messenger from their own people as a benefit for the people. You can imagine in small communities where people were close that if a stranger came into the community it may be more difficult for them to accept him however when someone from among them who they trusted was chosen as a messenger they may stop and think although this does not mean they all accepted the message.
When their brother Hud said to them: "Will you not fear Allah and obey Him? "Verily I am a trustworthy Messenger to you". (26:124-125)

[ParadiseLost]

How does this fit together and how is this clear? I don't understand.

Again you have misunderstood what the distinction is referring to. This question was answered but I will tell you again. Some people chose to believe in some messengers and reject others e.g. Jewish people do not accept Jesus and Muhammad and Christians do not accept Muhammad. However Allah tells us there is no distinction in the meaning that they all came with the same message of believing in one God, they all were Muslims who submitted themselves to Allah. The distinction is not referring to their life experience, their personality and appearance etc. Its about their religious beliefs. A true believer accepts all the messengers of Allah and makes no distinction between them because they all had the same message.

[StopS]

God did not fail in anything. For God to fail it would mean that God is being tested.

I did not mention a god doing anything. It would be absurd as a god can't do anything until there is proof that this god exists. Logics.

I did, however, say that the Koran makes these claims and I asked whether you are claiming this. I know I am being picky and precise.
Because if I would be a god requiring worship I would create people and appear to each individual, instead of pretending to test them when I already know their decision and would not send 80% of my own creations to hell for torture. And if I were a devil, I would not pass out the message that hell is terrible but tell everyone that hell is the pool-side-bar. You see, nothing here makes sense.

God created us to worship us does that mean He forces us to woship Him? No. God gave us free will to choose whether we want to believe or not. God would be unjust if He didnt send messengers but because God is Just He has sent messengers throughout the time. God gave us a brain to choose whether we want to believe in the messengers or not so it is only us who fails the test. God is not the one on test here it is us humans. The messengers did not fail as God says he will not hold them accountable for the people who rejected them.

You are creating a huge mixup.
1. if I create a bicycle, can this do anything else but be a bicycle? The Koran says in 51:56: "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me". If I am created ONLY to worship, what else can I do?
2. if your god knows I will turn left, can I change my mind and turn right?
3. if I am told: you can choose whether you want to believe, but if you don't, I will torture you for ever, I call that coercion, not leaving me much of a choice.
4. I was asking whether the messengers were ill-equipped with the wrong language. Did they fail because they could not get where they were supposed to get and if they did, could they speak the right language to make things clear?

No person bears the sins of another in Islam.

Are you being selective here? I call a son being killed as sacrifice for a god because this god doubts the faith of the father exactly that. Whether the father was ultimately stopped is irrelevant. Killing the entire Egyptian army because the Pharaoh doubted is what I call a good example of others bearing the sins of someone. If I am created as atheist is it my fault?

I don't know where you are getting the idea from that the messengers were in one part of the world and then travelled to New Zealand and then to America or something like this. Many of the messengers were from among their people so they were born in their community and they stayed among their people. Allah actually sent a messenger from their own people as a benefit for the people. You can imagine in small communities where people were close that if a stranger came into the community it may be more difficult for them to accept him however when someone from among them who they trusted was chosen as a messenger they may stop and think although this does not mean they all accepted the message.

Well, maybe I am concentrating on the Koran too much. If 14:4 says: "We did not send any messenger", I take it exactly like that. It does not say a message was transferred to a person in all nations, but a messenger was sent to the nations.
And also, if you are right in interpreting the Koran in that way, there must have been a perfect translation of the Koran and the message for every nation to make "things clear". Where is it? The perfect translation in every language?

YOU are the one saying:
1. "He has sent messengers"
2. "the messengers were from among their people"

Which one is it? And with what language?