61 replies to this topic

[ParadiseLost]

The Koran says in 51:56: "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me". If I am created ONLY to worship, what else can I do?

In relation to verse 51:56, you are not reading it fully. Many nations whose examples are used in the quran worshipped other things instead of God alone or along with God. In this verse God tells us that He is the only One who has the right to be worshipped. Now if God made us worship Him without us having the choice then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, if you look at the last part of the verse it says might, in other translations it says should or may but these words do not impose a definite upon jinn and humans.
You should worship God does not mean you will.
You may worship God does not mean you will.
You might worship God does not mean you will.
So God created jinn and human only that they may worship Him – This does not limit you. Also the very fact that only jinn and humans are mentioned confirm again that we have free will because all other creatures worship Allah without choice.

2. if your god knows I will turn left, can I change my mind and turn right?

Yes you can change your mind but God will know that you would change your mind.

3. if I am told: you can choose whether you want to believe, but if you don't, I will torture you for ever, I call that coercion, not leaving me much of a choice.

Well it clearly is a choice because many people knowing the consequences choose to die as disbelievers and are never coerced into believing no matter what warning God gives them.

4. I was asking whether the messengers were ill-equipped with the wrong language. Did they fail because they could not get where they were supposed to get and if they did, could they speak the right language to make things clear?

The messengers did not have the wrong language they spoke the language of their people.
Whenever We sent a Messenger to convey Our Message, he delivered it in the language of his people so that he may make it plain to them.
(14:4)

Are you being selective here? I call a son being killed as sacrifice for a god because this god doubts the faith of the father exactly that. Whether the father was ultimately stopped is irrelevant. Killing the entire Egyptian army because the Pharaoh doubted is what I call a good example of others bearing the sins of someone. If I am created as atheist is it my fault?

If a person rejects their messenger, the messenger will not bear their sin. You were not created an atheist, everyone was created a Muslim whether you accept that or not is your decision. God gave you a brain so use your knowledge then decide whether you want to believe in God or not. People who follow people who do not believe in God are not innocent people. They chose to follow the wrong way. They had a brain to ask themselves should we really believe this? If you have issues with particular events then start a new thread.

And also, if you are right in interpreting the Koran in that way, there must have been a perfect translation of the Koran and the message for every nation to make "things clear". Where is it? The perfect translation in every language?

The quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the arabic langauge. You seem to think the quran was revealed in many different languages since the beginning of time.

YOU are the one saying:
1. "He has sent messengers"
2. "the messengers were from among their people"

It is not me who says this it is God. Take for example Prophet Hud pbuh. He was sent to his people with a message from God - this is not a contradiction. He was living his life then God chose him as a messenger. God sent him to his people with the message. God chose Hud because he was from among his people and therefore could speak the language of his people.

And with what language?

I already told you that we do not know the language of every prophet.

[StopS]

In relation to verse 51:56, you are not reading it fully. Many nations whose examples are used in the quran worshipped other things instead of God alone or along with God. In this verse God tells us that He is the only One who has the right to be worshipped. Now if God made us worship Him without us having the choice then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, if you look at the last part of the verse it says might, in other translations it says should or may but these words do not impose a definite upon jinn and humans.
You should worship God does not mean you will.
You may worship God does not mean you will.
You might worship God does not mean you will.
So God created jinn and human only that they may worship Him – This does not limit you. Also the very fact that only jinn and humans are mentioned confirm again that we have free will because all other creatures worship Allah without choice.

I totally disagree, because the "created only" already precludes other interpretations. And other translations use "created except to", which is exclusive. So pretending there is an option in the conditional form in the second part of the sentence is a cop-out.

Yes you can change your mind but God will know that you would change your mind.

So you claim there is no such thing as free will as this god always knows already what I will do. ok.

Well it clearly is a choice because many people knowing the consequences choose to die as disbelievers and are never coerced into believing no matter what warning God gives them.[##][/##]

This was a question relating to your claim that we are totally free in our choice. Which is why I asked whether you consider this free choice if someone is standing with a sword over your head. Is that what you call free choice?

Pay or die! = free choice?
Pray or die! = free choice?

The messengers did not have the wrong language they spoke the language of their people.
Whenever We sent a Messenger to convey Our Message, he delivered it in the language of his people so that he may make it plain to them.
(14:4)

I know what it says. Why are you repeating this here? And why don't you simply answer the question?

What is the language? Who received what message in what language?

If a person rejects their messenger, the messenger will not bear their sin. You were not created an atheist, everyone was created a Muslim whether you accept that or not is your decision. God gave you a brain so use your knowledge then decide whether you want to believe in God or not. People who follow people who do not believe in God are not innocent people. They chose to follow the wrong way. They had a brain to ask themselves should we really believe this? If you have issues with particular events then start a new thread.
The quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the arabic langauge. You seem to think the quran was revealed in many different languages since the beginning of time.
It is not me who says this it is God. Take for example Prophet Hud pbuh. He was sent to his people with a message from God - this is not a contradiction. He was living his life then God chose him as a messenger. God sent him to his people with the message. God chose Hud because he was from among his people and therefore could speak the language of his people.
I already told you that we do not know the language of every prophet.

You seem to think that the brain status of a baby is a matter of opinion. It is not. You have the fact and you have wishful thinking. No, not everyone is born a Muslim. Muslim is a word with entailing consequences. A baby does not qualify. How stupid can an argument be? And who are you to pass judgement over others and declare something the "wrong way"?

You either don't understand logics or you don't want to understand logics. And you seem a bit confused. I am asking a question. You don't answer it and instead start bringing up weird scenarios and making wild claims. And then you tell me to start a new thread if I have issues with this? Don't be silly.

Just say: I don't know and leave it. Don't try to derail the entire thread just to suit your simplistic needs and your particular worldview.

[Faizy]

Word worship in Islam has a diversified meaning, this refers to every act that would please Almighty Allah. Rather be it the act of learning, earning, even marrying, because these are the ways through which a life goes on. However these things shall be attained through legal means only. There are other forms of worship as well which, as a whole makes Islam a complete system which is beneficial for society, economy, individuals etc. The verse u quoted exactly says: "except worship" or "except serve", both means same. Now the question is if we were created to do a specific task then how can there be a test? because if ever1 would worship then ever1 would be passed. Well for that reason Allah put the choices. U made that "bicycle" example to tell us ur viewpoint, I respect it. But we must use a different example which is more suitable for Humans.

Suppose a person takes an exam, now his concern is to get passed only. He would say: "I've not taken this exam except to get passed". But! what if that person fails in the exam for any reason? Doesn't this implies that that person's mission was to get passed but he had choices in getting passed or fail?

Even in ur bicycle example, that cycle may be used for fun, for transporting anything, for riding to school etc. Now it depends on the owner for what he will do with that. Well now when u know worship has a diversified meaning, we take an example of earning. We can earn legally by doing a job or something, or we can steal. Over here that verse means the person must only earn legally. Not to make u confuse Ill elaborate by government. Every government have their own rules, few countries have a law that they wont wage a war, but still they do! What their law tells is their mission. That doesnt mean they cant do anything other than that.

The action of choice u were talking abt is here, where we choose between bad and evil, i.e., marry a girl or rape a girl, earn money legally or steal, respect elders or disrespect elders, help others or not help others. Now if some1 wants to achieve the real goal of humans then he must choose from the good choices of worship, and for those who choose the other side, well i guess u can know what type of ppl would they be!

My mom knows that I will go to university tomorrow. So does that means that I dont have any free will ? Bro we have free will among the choices have been given; earn or steal.


If some1 stands with a sword on ur head he is not subjected to be accountable as Qur'an states: "save one who is coerced (to make an utterance of unbelief) 16:106 another verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" 2: 256.

I like ur example of pay or die but u need to elaborate. Its more likely to be; earn legally or steal= consequently go to jail. The person has a free will to earn legally or he can steal and go to jail.

The language of previous books might be hebrew, greek, latin or whatever the recipents language was. Actually bro, it goes as a system, the single Prophet or Messenger dont visit person to person. When they meet, they give the message clearly, then if that person accepts then that person also carries the message like we are fwding the msg of Islam right now. But at the same time that Messenger tries to convey the message to all ppl. There is very rare chance that some1 left un attend. If any1 never got the msg then there is a chance for his salvation as he never got the msg.

Surah # 3- Ali-Imran, Verse # 19: ''The Religion before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account. '' As it says " After knowledge had come to them". means if any1 got the msg then he should use his brain and he didnt got the msg then Allah is Just, He will not do any unjustice with anyone bro

Since there is a different language of different tribes, so do the msgs had which were brought by the Prophets. and all Prophets or Messengers carried the same msg of Monotheism.


I'll answer ur other questions too but right now Im focusing these only. Don't feel ignored.

For ur question about Qur'an in all languages, The Holy Qur'an was originally revealed in Arabic text, and it is the Perfect Arabic Text u can research for it. For translation; as I said earlier that it becomes the followers duty as well to forward the message, we did the translation. Its translation is available in every form of language, which u may understand easily. Moreover, since Arabic has synonyms, it is recommended to ask some1 for anything u dont understand like u asked us abt few verses. This does not mean that u are not getting a proper msg. When u study a course in ur mother tongue, even then there are few words which might be unfamiliar to u for which u will need guidance from ur teacher. Same is the case here.

[ParadiseLost]

I totally disagree, because the "created only" already precludes other interpretations. And other translations use "created except to", which is exclusive. So pretending there is an option in the conditional form in the second part of the sentence is a cop-out.

We were created to worship only God yet the quran is proof that people did not always choose to worship God. God gives us the stories of many nations who disbelieved in Him. Now if this verse showed that God forces us to believe in Him then there would not be disbelievers in the world. God is confirming that we need to worship only One God as He did not create us to worship others but Him. God didn’t create us to worship anyone or anything else. This verse is to make us think about why we are here. There is a purpose to this life. This does not mean everyone will worship God. Here is a further explanation from the tafsir of Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi.

''That is, "I have not created them for the service of others but for My own service. They should serve Me, for I am their Creator. When no one else has created them, no one else has the right that they should serve him; and how can it be admissible for them that they should serve others instead of Me, their Creator?" Here, the question arises that Allah Almighty is not the Creator only of the jinn and men but of the entire Universe and of every thing in it. Then, why has it been said only about the jinn and men that He has not created them for the service of others but of Himself ? whereas every single creature is there to serve Allah. The answer is: On the earth only the jinn and men have been granted the freedom that they may serve Allah within their sphere of choice if they so like; otherwise they can turn away from Allah's service as well as serve others beside Him. The rest of the creatures in the world do not have this kind of freedom. They do not have any choice whatever that they may not worship and serve Allah, or may serve any other. Therefore, only about the jinn and men it has been said here that by turning away from the obedience and servitude of their Creator within the bounds of their option and choice and by serving others than the Creator, they are fighting their own nature. They should know that they have not been created for the service of any other but the Creator, and for them the right way is that they should not abuse the freedom granted them, but within the bounds of this freedom also they should serve God voluntarily just as every particle of their body is serving Him involuntarily in the sphere where they have not been granted any freedom''

I know what it says. Why are you repeating this here? And why don't you simply answer the question?

What is the language? Who received what message in what language?

I did actually answer this. I said we do not know the languages of all the prophets. I repeated it because you wanted to know if the messengers spoke the language of their people and that verse shows that they did.

[StopS]

Word worship in Islam has a diversified meaning, this refers to every act that would please Almighty Allah. Rather be it the act of learning, earning, even marrying, because these are the ways through which a life goes on. However these things shall be attained through legal means only. There are other forms of worship as well which, as a whole makes Islam a complete system which is beneficial for society, economy, individuals etc. The verse u quoted exactly says: "except worship" or "except serve", both means same. Now the question is if we were created to do a specific task then how can there be a test? because if ever1 would worship then ever1 would be passed. Well for that reason Allah put the choices. U made that "bicycle" example to tell us ur viewpoint, I respect it. But we must use a different example which is more suitable for Humans.

Suppose a person takes an exam, now his concern is to get passed only. He would say: "I've not taken this exam except to get passed". But! what if that person fails in the exam for any reason? Doesn't this implies that that person's mission was to get passed but he had choices in getting passed or fail?

Even in ur bicycle example, that cycle may be used for fun, for transporting anything, for riding to school etc. Now it depends on the owner for what he will do with that. Well now when u know worship has a diversified meaning, we take an example of earning. We can earn legally by doing a job or something, or we can steal. Over here that verse means the person must only earn legally. Not to make u confuse Ill elaborate by government. Every government have their own rules, few countries have a law that they wont wage a war, but still they do! What their law tells is their mission. That doesnt mean they cant do anything other than that.

The action of choice u were talking abt is here, where we choose between bad and evil, i.e., marry a girl or rape a girl, earn money legally or steal, respect elders or disrespect elders, help others or not help others. Now if some1 wants to achieve the real goal of humans then he must choose from the good choices of worship, and for those who choose the other side, well i guess u can know what type of ppl would they be!

My mom knows that I will go to university tomorrow. So does that means that I dont have any free will ? Bro we have free will among the choices have been given; earn or steal.
If some1 stands with a sword on ur head he is not subjected to be accountable as Qur'an states: "save one who is coerced (to make an utterance of unbelief) 16:106 another verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" 2: 256.

I like ur example of pay or die but u need to elaborate. Its more likely to be; earn legally or steal= consequently go to jail. The person has a free will to earn legally or he can steal and go to jail.

The language of previous books might be hebrew, greek, latin or whatever the recipents language was. Actually bro, it goes as a system, the single Prophet or Messenger dont visit person to person. When they meet, they give the message clearly, then if that person accepts then that person also carries the message like we are fwding the msg of Islam right now. But at the same time that Messenger tries to convey the message to all ppl. There is very rare chance that some1 left un attend. If any1 never got the msg then there is a chance for his salvation as he never got the msg.

Surah # 3- Ali-Imran, Verse # 19: ''The Religion before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account. '' As it says " After knowledge had come to them". means if any1 got the msg then he should use his brain and he didnt got the msg then Allah is Just, He will not do any unjustice with anyone bro

Since there is a different language of different tribes, so do the msgs had which were brought by the Prophets. and all Prophets or Messengers carried the same msg of Monotheism.
I'll answer ur other questions too but right now Im focusing these only. Don't feel ignored.

For ur question about Qur'an in all languages, The Holy Qur'an was originally revealed in Arabic text, and it is the Perfect Arabic Text u can research for it. For translation; as I said earlier that it becomes the followers duty as well to forward the message, we did the translation. Its translation is available in every form of language, which u may understand easily. Moreover, since Arabic has synonyms, it is recommended to ask some1 for anything u dont understand like u asked us abt few verses. This does not mean that u are not getting a proper msg. When u study a course in ur mother tongue, even then there are few words which might be unfamiliar to u for which u will need guidance from ur teacher. Same is the case here.

Thanks.

Worship has a meaning. It is to pay special attention to or revere something or someone. I don't think you can simply change the meaning by putting a god in the sentence. Also, a god cannot do or activate anything until proven to exist. I can't say I am now riding my invisible bicycle. I first need to prove the existence of this that is acting on something.

My actual question is what happened to the message that was passed on to people in history. The creation question was a side-issue. If I go for an exam I was not created to pass that exam.

A bicycle is created a bicycle. It will never swim and never fly. That's all.

I'm sorry but your analogies suck. The Koran claims that the god in Islam is all-knowing, or omniscient. This means no human can do anything without that particular god knowing about it. Or not? Or yes? Or what? Can you turn left if your god knows you will turn right? If yes, your god is not all-knowing. If not, you don't have free will. Your choice.

Now to the language issue:

The Koran is not really written in perfect Arabic. There are foreign words, some grammatical as well as temporal and factual errors. But this is not important. It is a religious book, which does not require to be perfect. It is also the book which unified the Arabic language at the time and which was used by poets. So I don't have a problem with any of that.

My point is: if a person in Iceland should receive the message the Koran is talking about in 14:4, do you think that a person was sent from Arabia with the Arabic text to Iceland? Was a person from Iceland selected who spoke Icelandic to convey the message and make things clear?
You see there are different opinions on this and I am grateful for the different interpretations and views how Muslims, who live with this religion every day, see this.

[StopS]

We were created to worship only God yet the quran is proof that people did not always choose to worship God. God gives us the stories of many nations who disbelieved in Him. Now if this verse showed that God forces us to believe in Him then there would not be disbelievers in the world. God is confirming that we need to worship only One God as He did not create us to worship others but Him. God didn’t create us to worship anyone or anything else. This verse is to make us think about why we are here. There is a purpose to this life. This does not mean everyone will worship God. Here is a further explanation from the tafsir of Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi.

''That is, "I have not created them for the service of others but for My own service. They should serve Me, for I am their Creator. When no one else has created them, no one else has the right that they should serve him; and how can it be admissible for them that they should serve others instead of Me, their Creator?" Here, the question arises that Allah Almighty is not the Creator only of the jinn and men but of the entire Universe and of every thing in it. Then, why has it been said only about the jinn and men that He has not created them for the service of others but of Himself ? whereas every single creature is there to serve Allah.

Here, I totally agree with you. Nicely put and very clear.

The answer is: On the earth only the jinn and men have been granted the freedom that they may serve Allah within their sphere of choice if they so like; otherwise they can turn away from Allah's service as well as serve others beside Him. The rest of the creatures in the world do not have this kind of freedom. They do not have any choice whatever that they may not worship and serve Allah, or may serve any other. Therefore, only about the jinn and men it has been said here that by turning away from the obedience and servitude of their Creator within the bounds of their option and choice and by serving others than the Creator, they are fighting their own nature. They should know that they have not been created for the service of any other but the Creator, and for them the right way is that they should not abuse the freedom granted them, but within the bounds of this freedom also they should serve God voluntarily just as every particle of their body is serving Him involuntarily in the sphere where they have not been granted any freedom''

I see your point. If this is true, why does it say in the Koran: humans were created only to worship? Why doesn't it say: humans were created with a choice to worship?
Then humans (I'll leave the jinn for now) would know that they can choose and the correct way would be to worship Allah, because if they don't, they get punished.
But the wording now allows only a definite MUST.

Like the bicycle I create is only for riding on and not for smoking it or flying on it.

But now we have the next problem: if humans are created to worship the creator god, how do they know this? There is a tribe in South America, the Piraha, who have no god in their language or their culture. Nobody told them. The Koran says a messenger was sent "to every nation" (10:47 And: "And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying]: 'Worship Allaah and avoid Taaghoot)"

If humans are created by one single god, why do 4 in 5 not know this?
You said that messengers were sent at different times. How do you know this?

I did actually answer this. I said we do not know the languages of all the prophets. I repeated it because you wanted to know if the messengers spoke the language of their people and that verse shows that they did.

You said "we do not know the language of every prophet". But the Koran says it does. I am confused by your "yes" and "no" answer.

So let me see if I get this right:

14:4 We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them
to you means: the apostles/messengers were not sent, but selected from within the nation/people. Correct?

So the Icelandic people within the last 150,000 years had an apostle/messenger tell them in Icelandic the message of the Koran. Correct?

[Wesley]

But now we have the next problem: if humans are created to worship the creator god, how do they know this? There is a tribe in South America, the Piraha, who have no god in their language or their culture. Nobody told them. The Koran says a messenger was sent "to every nation" (10:47 And: "And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying]: 'Worship Allaah and avoid Taaghoot)"

The Piraha culture and language do not allow for a timeline. They live exclusively in the now. There is no Piraha history in the Piraha culture. What this means is even if God had revealed Himself to them, the Piraha of today would have no record of it. One more note, the Piraha weren't necessarily a nation. Today there are 420, might have been more pre-European. Other Native American cultures did have God. Those cultures also had the language and history to show for it.

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Just warning you, this persons a troll and usually ends up getting banned flaming/posting offensive messages.

Hopefully he can stick around this time.

[StopS]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Just warning you, this persons a troll and usually ends up getting banned flaming/posting offensive messages.

Hopefully he can stick around this time.

Maybe some people are more reasonable and first learn about a person before making up their minds. Instead of believing someone who comes here and spreads a lie. Can you prove I "usually ends up getting banned flaming/posting offensive messages"? No, you can't, because it is not true.

I have never lied.
I have never insulted a single person.
Even with you, I am polite and civilised, even though it is extremely difficult.
I have never made any offensive comments or postings.
I have never written a flaming message.
I once quoted a Hadith about Muhammad. A Sahih Hadith, which a person on the SunniForum did not like and got me chucked off for telling the truth he did not like.
Yes, I tell the truth and use facts and logic. And yes, I am straight and maybe too direct. But I don't use lies and deception to discredit others or make misleading statements to Muslims.
And finally, I hope others will judge me by what I do and not by what you say.

[ParadiseLost]

I see your point. If this is true, why does it say in the Koran: humans were created only to worship? Why doesn't it say: humans were created with a choice to worship?
Then humans (I'll leave the jinn for now) would know that they can choose and the correct way would be to worship Allah, because if they don't, they get punished.
But the wording now allows only a definite MUST.

Just so you know the part in italics is not from me I listed the source above and I think it explains the verse well.

Well if the quran was just revealed with this verse I could understand your confusion but it wasn’t and there are many other verses which show that humans did not worship Allah. There are many verses which show that humans chose not to worship God even though they were created by God and that God is the only One worthy of worship.

Like the bicycle I create is only for riding on and not for smoking it or flying on it.

You created the bicycle only for riding yet it is possible to sit on it, to kick it, to lift it.
God created the human for worshipping Him only yet some humans do not worship Him.

If we look at it in an equation: Creator (God), Subject (Human), Purpose (To worship).
In your example: Creator (You), Subject (Bike), Purpose (To ride).

But for both there is also another thing to add to the equation > the test. And it is a crucial part of Islam. God created us to worship Him yet he put satan on the earth to test us to see if we do worship Him. So look at the whole quran because you have to get the fuller picture here.

In your example you created the bike in order to ride it yet you can add (just the way God added satan to our lives) things to the bike in order to test its efficiency. Some bikes are faster than others, some have better wheels etc. All in all for both examples the purpose can be rated. Some humans fail in there purpose others excel. Some bikes fail in their purpose others excel.

But now we have the next problem: if humans are created to worship the creator god, how do they know this? There is a tribe in South America, the Piraha, who have no god in their language or their culture. Nobody told them. The Koran says a messenger was sent "to every nation" (10:47 And: "And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying]: 'Worship Allaah and avoid Taaghoot)"

It's not wise to assume a messenger never came to the people just because the people do not believe in God today. I already gave the example of how Moses pbuh went away for 40 nights and his people returned to worshipping a cow even though they had known about God. Now if the people of Moses were isolated and had no contact with the outside world for many years you can imagine their childrens children etc would have no concept of God simply because they were not taught it from their parents. They would just follow what their parents believed.

You said "we do not know the language of every prophet". But the Koran says it does.

I said we do not know the language of every prophet as you asked what exact language and I cannot tell you if it was welsh or japanese because this is not related to us we just know it was the language of their people.

So let me see if I get this right:

14:4 We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them
to you means: the apostles/messengers were not sent, but selected from within the nation/people. Correct?

No I never said that. Let me use an example. There is a house in my community and the people who live in that house know who I am. My Mum sends me to that house in order that I tell the people that they are invited for dinner tomorrow at our home. So I was part of my community but I was still sent. I wasn’t sent outside my community. The messengers were part of their community too and God sent them to their people. I hope it is a bit clearer now.

So the Icelandic people within the last 150,000 years had an apostle/messenger tell them in Icelandic the message of the Koran. Correct?

I told you that the quran was revealed to Muhammad in Arabic. The other messengers did not reveal the quran. We say their message was the same in the sense of monotheism which I explained above.

[Faizy]

What do u mean by putting the word God in the sentence? sorry i dont understand u.

The message which was revealed before has either been completely destroyed by the ppl or the words have been changed.. Im saying the same but just differently. A bicycle cannot swim but still can serve for multi purposes. Suppose there is a class of 10 students. The instructor of that class make judgment abt 1 particular student that he will pass and other will fail, does this "knowing" means that those students dont have any free choice? No! It is just about the Creator that He knows about His creations in advance that which one would do what. It is that u will choose a specific thing thats why Allah knows it.

Suppose my brother loves blue color, now I give him two choices to select a car of blue color or red color. Now I know what color he will choose in advance because I know my brother well but this doesn't means that he didnt have any free will. Still he will have red n blue in front him to choose. Similarly Allah knows in advance because He knows the person's true nature. If u are trying to proof that if some1 is born in a non muslim home so how can he be blamed because Allah created him there or because everything is written in advance so there was no choice for that person, then please know whatever is written in the destiny can also be changed by Allah as He is capable of all things. This implies to those ppl who ask for guidance from the bottom of their heart; "And your Lord says: Call on Me; I will answer your (prayer). But those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell-in humiliation.” S 40: 60 It is in a hadith: “O My servants, all of you are misguided except him whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you" Sahih Muslim

Moreover The Qur'an says: Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful.
( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅäÓÇä , Al-Insan, Chapter #76, Verse #3)

Here it clearly states there is a free will. U might think when Allah knows a person will go astray then he cant do anything else. No! If that person sincerely look for the right path and ask Allah, then Allah will guide him to right path.

Now for Qur'an I dont want to argue on which u dont have any problem but it does not have any error. It is just about the understanding of ppl.

The person from Arabia would not go to Iceland. A person would be born in Iceland first. Then will receive the book or other form of guidance through angels or sometimes directly through Lord. U can see the examples of Jesus and Moses or Muhammad (peace be upon them). They were all born in their own lands or tribes. There are no different opinions. Qur'an also says that messengers were from among themselves this clearly means they were of that nation e.g. "icelandic".

[StopS]

You created the bicycle only for riding yet it is possible to sit on it, to kick it, to lift it.
God created the human for worshipping Him only yet some humans do not worship Him.

If we look at it in an equation: Creator (God), Subject (Human), Purpose (To worship).
In your example: Creator (You), Subject (Bike), Purpose (To ride).

But for both there is also another thing to add to the equation > the test. And it is a crucial part of Islam. God created us to worship Him yet he put satan on the earth to test us to see if we do worship Him. So look at the whole quran because you have to get the fuller picture here.

In your example you created the bike in order to ride it yet you can add (just the way God added satan to our lives) things to the bike in order to test its efficiency. Some bikes are faster than others, some have better wheels etc. All in all for both examples the purpose can be rated. Some humans fail in there purpose others excel. Some bikes fail in their purpose others excel.

Let me only answer the pertinent points and not every remark, if that is ok with you.

The bicycle can serve in many forms: pushing, riding, throwing, etc, but never flying.
Humans are created to worship a god in many possible forms: praying, praising, pilgrimage, etc, but never worshipping another god.

Yet 4 out of 5 "created" humans do exactly that.

It's not wise to assume a messenger never came to the people just because the people do not believe in God today. I already gave the example of how Moses pbuh went away for 40 nights and his people returned to worshipping a cow even though they had known about God. Now if the people of Moses were isolated and had no contact with the outside world for many years you can imagine their childrens children etc would have no concept of God simply because they were not taught it from their parents. They would just follow what their parents believed.

To use Moses as example you would first have to prove he really existed. You cannot, so the example is not applicable. If I look at reality, children in a defined region have a defined religion, which is passed down by the parents. I don't know of any case where a region or tribe changed their religion.
Unfortunately, the Koran does not specify the time frame either.

I said we do not know the language of every prophet as you asked what exact language and I cannot tell you if it was welsh or japanese because this is not related to us we just know it was the language of their people.
No I never said that. Let me use an example. There is a house in my community and the people who live in that house know who I am. My Mum sends me to that house in order that I tell the people that they are invited for dinner tomorrow at our home. So I was part of my community but I was still sent. I wasn’t sent outside my community. The messengers were part of their community too and God sent them to their people. I hope it is a bit clearer now.
I told you that the quran was revealed to Muhammad in Arabic. The other messengers did not reveal the quran. We say their message was the same in the sense of monotheism which I explained above.

Your example breaks down as soon as we insert 1000 kilometres. Are you saying that the messengers did not make anything clear, but just told people that there is only 1 god? How do you arrive at that conclusion? I don't get that impression at all.

So we still have the mystery of what was transmitted by whom to whom in what language.
.

[StopS]

What do u mean by putting the word God in the sentence? sorry i dont understand u.

My reply went missing somehow. I'll try again:
There is a definition for the word "worship". This definition is the same whether it refers to a religious object or not. It does not matter whether you are referring to a god a not. Islam can't really declare a different meaning to a word as the rest of the world.

The message which was revealed before has either been completely destroyed by the ppl or the words have been changed.. Im saying the same but just differently. A bicycle cannot swim but still can serve for multi purposes. Suppose there is a class of 10 students. The instructor of that class make judgment abt 1 particular student that he will pass and other will fail, does this "knowing" means that those students dont have any free choice? No! It is just about the Creator that He knows about His creations in advance that which one would do what. It is that u will choose a specific thing thats why Allah knows it.

Suppose my brother loves blue color, now I give him two choices to select a car of blue color or red color. Now I know what color he will choose in advance because I know my brother well but this doesn't means that he didnt have any free will. Still he will have red n blue in front him to choose. Similarly Allah knows in advance because He knows the person's true nature. If u are trying to proof that if some1 is born in a non muslim home so how can he be blamed because Allah created him there or because everything is written in advance so there was no choice for that person, then please know whatever is written in the destiny can also be changed by Allah as He is capable of all things. This implies to those ppl who ask for guidance from the bottom of their heart; "And your Lord says: Call on Me; I will answer your (prayer). But those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell-in humiliation.” S 40: 60 It is in a hadith: “O My servants, all of you are misguided except him whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you" Sahih Muslim

Moreover The Qur'an says: Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful.
( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅäÓÇä , Al-Insan, Chapter #76, Verse #3)

Here it clearly states there is a free will. U might think when Allah knows a person will go astray then he cant do anything else. No! If that person sincerely look for the right path and ask Allah, then Allah will guide him to right path.

Now for Qur'an I dont want to argue on which u dont have any problem but it does not have any error. It is just about the understanding of ppl.

No student is born to pass exams. No student is born to pass exams the teacher already knows it will be "pass" or "fail" - in advance.

No bicycle is created except for staying on solid ground. It has no existence anywhere else. Humans, according to 51:56 (I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me) are created for only 1 reason. Humans have no other reason for existence.
Yet 4 out of 5 decide to worship nothing or other gods. Why the test, if all humans are created by only 1 god with only 1 purpose by a god who knows what these humans will do when he creates them?

The person from Arabia would not go to Iceland. A person would be born in Iceland first. Then will receive the book or other form of guidance through angels or sometimes directly through Lord. U can see the examples of Jesus and Moses or Muhammad (peace be upon them). They were all born in their own lands or tribes. There are no different opinions. Qur'an also says that messengers were from among themselves this clearly means they were of that nation e.g. "icelandic".

I understand your point and find the reasoning acceptable and logically sound.
But, there's a but, that would imply that there was a perfect translation in every language at some stage of the Koran. Muslims today argue that this is not possible. So who is right?

[StopS]

The Piraha culture and language do not allow for a timeline. They live exclusively in the now. There is no Piraha history in the Piraha culture. What this means is even if God had revealed Himself to them, the Piraha of today would have no record of it. One more note, the Piraha weren't necessarily a nation. Today there are 420, might have been more pre-European. Other Native American cultures did have God. Those cultures also had the language and history to show for it.

Does this mean this tribe is a tribe misguided or abandoned as described in the koran? Example: So, Allah lets go astray whom He wills and lets find guidance whom He wills.

[Faizy]

Yea I checked ur reply and when I came back to this page it was missing.
Well in religion everything is defined through religious scriptures not man made dictionaries. In Islam the word 'ibada' is used for worship which means all that which I told u. The nearest translation to it is worship but that doesn't mean its only that what dictionary says. To understand that, we have to study the scriptures, not just one sentence or word. And for ur kind information the oxford dictionary defines the word worship as follows:

worship

Pronunciation: /ˈwəːʃɪp/
noun
1 [mass noun] the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity
Religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity: the church was opened for public worship

Where it says 'religious rites' all the practices scribed by any religion comes under it. And this also means that every Religion has different rites. Thus! a different meaning of worship.

Whatever u said about students and bicycle or humans is now null because humans are created for multiple purpose and the word worship comprises of a vast range of things. Moreover the verse is giving a commandment not a claim, that humans shall worship none but one God that is Allah-The Most High,The Creator.

"Why the test"

Dont u even read my posts brother ??? I told u; Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful. ( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅäÓÇä , Al-Insan, Chapter #76, Verse #3)

And still u ask why the test? And as I told u before We have to look onto the whole scripture. Just tell me with looking on the verse I quoted above; how can a person know that what is correct; grateful or ungrateful ??? A person can think being grateful is good while other may think that in order to move forward one shall have desires and if I bcome just grateful I might lose the desires and will be just happy with what currently I have. So what would happen? these ppl would judge without knowledge and may go astray. For that we have to look onto the whole scripture. When ppl would look on the verse that they are not created but to worship Allah and when they will know that in worship in Islam it also consist being grateful only then he can know what is correct and whats not.

U just have to look as a whole; the verse I quote denotes to free choice, and the verse u quote denotes to real purpose, it is to help us understanding between right and wrong.

"....a God who knows what these humans will do when he creates them?" ah! again the same question. How about that that God knows that at one point His slave will wander and will look for something and at that time the God will answer or give what he wants? When this God knows what gonna happen He also gives us the chance to create our future life by giving us choices to make.

Who told u that there was a perfect translation at one stage of Qur'an? Qur'an has revealed some 1400 years ago, and a perfect translation is Arabic only. Why? because there are many many words in Arabic which have many different meanings. That doesn't means that the translations available in other languages are useless but they translates to the nearest meaning of the word. U can have an example like this; "have ur food" "take ur meal" "answer ur hunger" "intake the food" "have food" etc. All are differently said but still have the same meanings. So this how the translations denotes to the same meaning of Qur'an. However it is for sure that if a person learns arabic and then reads Qur'an for sure he will be easy able to learn more about the religion.

How do u demarcate the nations? Today's Kazakhstan was once part of Russia, today's Pakistan was once part of India, today's israel was part of Egypt, etc. We dont know what was the demarcation at the time when Messengers (peace be upon him) came to the nations. For sure it was different. Then how can u claim that a messenger never came or failed by looking at current demarcations?

One more thing. There were many ancient practices which are now not a part of the ppl or their culture; white ppl used to think they came to rule here on blacks, women were considered slaves to men, few women used to dance naked on full moon thinking they will receive energy, etc. Now these things are not the part of those culture anymore, then how cant u get the idea that people can also forget or change their practice from what messengers SAID????????

My bro I know u like to study and learn and only this is why im trying to share my knowledge. thanks

[StopS]

Whatever u said about students and bicycle or humans is now null because humans are created for multiple purpose and the word worship comprises of a vast range of things. Moreover the verse is giving a commandment not a claim, that humans shall worship none but one God that is Allah-The Most High,The Creator.

51:56 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me

So where is my misunderstanding?
"Lost in Paradise" also told me that the sentence means something else, but there the stress was on the word "may".

You, however, are telling me that my misunderstanding lies in the understanding of the purpose.

Which is why I said: let me use a bicycle as analogy:
I have only created humans to worship me
I have only created a bicycle to ride on land

Where is the mistake?

I have created humans that they may worship me
I have created a bicycle that it may ride on land

The word "may" in this case does not denote an option.

Where is the mistake?

Are humans not created? As reality teaches us?
Are humans not compelled to worship? Is there really free will?
If a god is a creator and creates a human and this god is all-knowing, the human has no free will, because the creator of this human already knows this human, created by the all-knowing creator, will fail the test. This means the creator/god creates humans knowing they will go to hell.

Sorry, but this is not what I would call merciful or just.


And we have left behind the question whether all people even knew what is required due to translation issues.

If today's Kazakhstan was once part of Russia, did this god not know about this?

Who told me that there was a perfect translation at one stage of the Koran?
You did. Like I said: if the messengers went anywhere outside of Arabia, they must have "made clear" (14:4 a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them) everything in a different language. And if they made it clear it must have been a perfect translation. And if it was "the message" then it must be the Koran itself.

That's my line of reasoning, at least.

[Faizy]

Oh wow! I applause for u that u read everything except the main. God have not created the human except to worship Him. And what does worship means? Dude I have made this clear many times and still u are not getting it. Not just me but many ppl have made it clear and still u are just picking up one thing not the whole picture. This worship has a meaning and u are not taking it. Now when i gave u meaning of worship form oxford too, u ignored it wow bro awesome.

And how told u that all men are going to hell? Did u meet God in ur past where He told u that all men or most of the men are going to hell? and if u say that most of the world is not in Islam today then its only the question of today, not past not future.,..U never know whats gonna happen tomorrow and we are never precise what has been passed 5000 years ago. Who knows that 5000 years ago every1 was a believer.

U missed the point where it says Allah is The Most Merciful. The person who seeks forgiveness from Allah surely he finds Allah the oft-forgiving.

"If today's Kazakhstan was once part of Russia, did this god not know about this?" Please be more precise what are u trying to say. Because this whole thing goes against u and u are just making stupid points now.

Firstly! the verse about the messengers is about the messengers came before Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Secondly For Qur'an there is a verse in Qur'an itself that it is revealed in Arabic. Thirdly; a messenger of Allah didnt go outside the arabia I told u before that messenger was born in the tribe or nation itself. And if u are trying to say that a messenger among Muslims went outside the Arabia... then for sure he must have made clear all things, but this doesn't means that every1 would accept messenger. Clearing up the point is our responsibility. Choosing the right path is urs.. As the verse says: "Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful." ( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅäÓÇä , Al-Insan, Chapter #76, Verse #3)

Well u take any translation of Qur'an and study it and ask a knowledgeable person (who has its good knowledge), surely u will get the perfect meaning. Hence! we are required teachers to help us in every subject.

[ParadiseLost]

Let me only answer the pertinent points and not every remark, if that is ok with you.

The bicycle can serve in many forms: pushing, riding, throwing, etc, but never flying.
Humans are created to worship a god in many possible forms: praying, praising, pilgrimage, etc, but never worshipping another god.

This is where your comparison of humans and bikes fall down. Its like comparing the impossible with the possible. It is not realistic for a bike to fly but it is realistic that humans choose not to worship God. Also you still ignored the fact that our faith is tested, that Allah has sent satan here to test us and you are ignoring that Allah relates the stories of disbelieving nations to us.
Humans were not created to worship another God which I have already said but that does not mean they did that! Even God acknowledges this many times in the quran that people do not worship Him :

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (5:76)


When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord, (30:33)

If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not (12:40)

To use Moses as example you would first have to prove he really existed. You cannot, so the example is not applicable. If I look at reality, children in a defined region have a defined religion, which is passed down by the parents. I don't know of any case where a region or tribe changed their religion.

You are backing up your argument using the quran yet you wont take feedback using the quran hmmm. It is possible that an entire tribe/region will choose not to worship God even when the truth comes to them. And like Allah says to us in the quran he doesn't relate to us the story of every messenger so apart from the ones we know we can only speculate on the others. Perhaps many were killed as soon as they said there is only one God - we do not know how stubborn every nation was in their own beliefs - perhaps some were very protective of their beliefs in idols and didn't let anyone come in the way of that. People probably thought the messengers were madmen which prophet Muhammad pbuh himself was accused of. Perhaps when the messenger died the people immediately began to forget who God was and returned to their old ways. But if you are not going to open your mind to the possibility of this then that is your decision.

Your example breaks down as soon as we insert 1000 kilometres. Are you saying that the messengers did not make anything clear, but just told people that there is only 1 god? How do you arrive at that conclusion? I don't get that impression at all.

Did I say messengers did not make anything clear- no. Even the verse you had issues with before says they made it clear. By the way you are clearly basing your understanding on all of this in today’s times. The world was not as globalised back then and communities would have been much more isolated. People didn’t have tvs or computers so it was much easier for people to get to know each other. It wouldn’t be surprising if everyone knew everyone in their community. Yes all the messengers told people there is only one God but some of them had another issue to address in particular. Lut pbuh for example had to deal with the issue of homosexuality in his community. The people of Ad which Prophet Hud pbuh had to deal with were a very arrogant people. They were people of strength who had built big buildings. Hud was sent to them to remind them that they received these abilities from Allah but the people of Hud were so arrogant that they did not believe anyone is above them - As for 'Ad, they were arrogant in the land without right, and they said: "Who is mightier than us in strength?" See they not that Allah, Who created them was mightier in strength than them. And they used to deny Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) (41:15)

You yourself were created to only believe in one God but because God gave you a mind to decide whether you wanted to or not you are choosing not to. Your faith is being tested although you may not believe this. You are aware that there are people who say there is only one God and you are aware of the message of Islam yet you do not believe in it. There are many people today who also do not believe in one God. So why do you find it hard to believe that there were people like you in the past as well?

[StopS]

Oh wow! I applause for u that u read everything except the main. God have not created the human except to worship Him. And what does worship means? Dude I have made this clear many times and still u are not getting it. Not just me but many ppl have made it clear and still u are just picking up one thing not the whole picture. This worship has a meaning and u are not taking it. Now when i gave u meaning of worship form oxford too, u ignored it wow bro awesome.

I told you that worship means worship. Whether or not you change the god or not does not matter. Worship is paying special attention and going through specific rituals. The rituals might change, the fact that it is worship does not. And it is so totally unimportant what the definition of worship is. Stop paying attention to the word and focus on the concept.

To make it perfectly clear, since you seem to have a problem with this: worshipping is an expression of reverence and adoration for something. But it does not matter. It is irrelevant. It is not important. It does not make a difference.

If I am wrong, tell me why?

And how told u that all men are going to hell? Did u meet God in ur past where He told u that all men or most of the men are going to hell? and if u say that most of the world is not in Islam today then its only the question of today, not past not future.,..U never know whats gonna happen tomorrow and we are never precise what has been passed 5000 years ago. Who knows that 5000 years ago every1 was a believer.

Oh my, logics is not your strength, is it?

What happens to humans who learn about the Muslim god and choose to not believe or worship this god? What happens to them when they die? Where do they spend eternity? For example it says in the Koran in 3:196: "Let not the vicissitude (of the success) of those who disbelieve, in the land, deceive thee (O Muhammad). It is but a brief comfort. And afterward their habitation will be hell, an ill abode."

In my eyes, the answer is: hell.

If you think I am wrong, tell me why.

How do humans, who should worship only one god, the Muslim god, get to live on Earth? 6:2 says regarding this: "He it is Who hath created you from clay, and hath decreed a term for you."

So we now know that humans are created by a god, the Muslim god, who informs all humans of the presence and the task of worshipping, which, we have established consists of rituals and expressions of reverence and adoration, as is decreed in 51:56 "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me."

Does this still sound familiar?

So a creator/god creates humans to worship himself. But ~80% of all humans are not Muslims. That means that 4 out of 5 humans which are created to worship that creator/god to worship himself, don't do that. Only 1 in 5 does what they are supposed to do.

This means that 4 out of 5 humans end up in hell because they don't worship the right god and thus end up in hell, not in heaven.

Is it clear now?

So I am looking at today's situation and reading the Koran, which is clear and explained and which you believe is the word of your god.

In this Koran it also says that this creator/god is very powerful and knows everything. In the future. So this creator/god knows when he creates a human to worship him that this human will not do so. Neither will the next one or the next. Only 1 human created by this creator/god out of 5 will worship him. The others go to hell - even though this creator/god knows already that they will not do as they are told and still, they go to hell, because there is nothing in the Koran about humans not going to hell if they disbelieve. And if this creator/god is merciful, then why threaten people with hell in the first place?

U missed the point where it says Allah is The Most Merciful. The person who seeks forgiveness from Allah surely he finds Allah the oft-forgiving.

No, I pointed it out previously and I hope I have clarified it.

"If today's Kazakhstan was once part of Russia, did this god not know about this?" Please be more precise what are u trying to say. Because this whole thing goes against u and u are just making stupid points now.

Are you playing stupid? YOU brought up this point and now you don't understand it? You don't understand your own arguments? I agree that it was a stupid point, but I addressed it anyway.

Firstly! the verse about the messengers is about the messengers came before Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Secondly For Qur'an there is a verse in Qur'an itself that it is revealed in Arabic. Thirdly; a messenger of Allah didnt go outside the arabia I told u before that messenger was born in the tribe or nation itself. And if u are trying to say that a messenger among Muslims went outside the Arabia... then for sure he must have made clear all things, but this doesn't means that every1 would accept messenger. Clearing up the point is our responsibility. Choosing the right path is urs.. As the verse says: "Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful." ( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅäÓÇä , Al-Insan, Chapter #76, Verse #3)

Now you tell me no messenger left Arabia. Did Moses? Yes. So what is it?

If the message was made clear to another nation, how was the message transmitted to the nation in Iceland?
What was the message? Was it about the sale in Bloomingdale's or the Koran? Or something else?

Well u take any translation of Qur'an and study it and ask a knowledgeable person (who has its good knowledge), surely u will get the perfect meaning. Hence! we are required teachers to help us in every subject.

You'll be surprised: I did. I asked. No Imam or Koran-teacher or Islam-scholar could answer my question so far. But I will not give up. Maybe one day someone can explain what the Koran is so unclear about: who went where and made what clear in what language.
.

[StopS]

This is where your comparison of humans and bikes fall down. Its like comparing the impossible with the possible. It is not realistic for a bike to fly but it is realistic that humans choose not to worship God. Also you still ignored the fact that our faith is tested, that Allah has sent satan here to test us and you are ignoring that Allah relates the stories of disbelieving nations to us.

Ah, now we are getting to the point that interests me. Is it "realistic" for humans, who, as 51:56 puts it: "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me", where the only means the same as in my bicycle example "only to" and the "might" means must in this context. So there is no choice in this decree.

At least I don't see any way of misunderstanding this.

I have come across the argument that you can have a pencil without actually using it. Creating a pencil and then not using it seems strange. Creating a 2nd, 3rd and then a 4th one and not using them is even more unthinkable. And the to create a 5th one which is then what I use is absurd.

You are backing up your argument using the quran yet you wont take feedback using the quran hmmm.

Oh I would, if it would address the situation. The ones you brought up, don't.

It is possible that an entire tribe/region will choose not to worship God even when the truth comes to them. And like Allah says to us in the quran he doesn't relate to us the story of every messenger so apart from the ones we know we can only speculate on the others. Perhaps many were killed as soon as they said there is only one God - we do not know how stubborn every nation was in their own beliefs - perhaps some were very protective of their beliefs in idols and didn't let anyone come in the way of that. People probably thought the messengers were madmen which prophet Muhammad pbuh himself was accused of. Perhaps when the messenger died the people immediately began to forget who God was and returned to their old ways. But if you are not going to open your mind to the possibility of this then that is your decision.

I agree with this possibility. And I agree this is a workable model. But that was not my problem. My problem is who went where and made what clear in what language.

You have answered a question I did not ask. This is about whether a god can produce worshippers who don't worship (and then send them to hell for that).

Did I say messengers did not make anything clear- no. Even the verse you had issues with before says they made it clear. By the way you are clearly basing your understanding on all of this in today’s times. The world was not as globalised back then and communities would have been much more isolated. People didn’t have tvs or computers so it was much easier for people to get to know each other. It wouldn’t be surprising if everyone knew everyone in their community. Yes all the messengers told people there is only one God but some of them had another issue to address in particular. Lut pbuh for example had to deal with the issue of homosexuality in his community. The people of Ad which Prophet Hud pbuh had to deal with were a very arrogant people. They were people of strength who had built big buildings. Hud was sent to them to remind them that they received these abilities from Allah but the people of Hud were so arrogant that they did not believe anyone is above them

Hahaha, no, you did not, I did. I implied this because today we have regions where Islam is totally unknown. No trace. The Koran says that the message was made clear to them, which can't mean the messengers were killed after one sentence, because the message would not have been clear yet, would it?

The problem is this: if messengers actually somehow were present in Iceland to make the message clear to the Icelandic people, what language did they use?
1. Arabic, the language the Koran and all messages were revealed in? Well, the Icelandic people would not understand anything and the message could not be made clear to them.
2. Icelandic? Then the people would understand and the message could be made clear. BUT: the messenger would have to receive the message in Arabic. And translate it into Icelandic, which is not possible because the message was revealed in Arabic and can't be perfectly translated.

You yourself were created to only believe in one God but because God gave you a mind to decide whether you wanted to or not you are choosing not to. Your faith is being tested although you may not believe this. You are aware that there are people who say there is only one God and you are aware of the message of Islam yet you do not believe in it. There are many people today who also do not believe in one God. So why do you find it hard to believe that there were people like you in the past as well?

Why would a creator/god, who creates humans to worship him, make me an atheist?
Your god creates humans, knows their future, knows they will be atheists and still creates them.
What test? Does your god know the future or not? Did he create me to worship him or not? Is it my fault?
And another person decides to believe in the Hindu god or gods. Did your god create this person? Yes. Knowing this person will be a Hindu? Yes. So why the test? And why the eternal punishment for a Hindu whom your god created to worship him?
Why create all those people who will go to hell?
Why create all those people, already knowing that in the future they will go to hell?
Why create so many people and 80% will go to hell? Which your creator and god knew?

Sorry, I got a bit emotional now. Because logically, none of this makes any sense.