61 replies to this topic

[ParadiseLost]

Ah, now we are getting to the point that interests me. Is it "realistic" for humans, who, as 51:56 puts it: "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me", where the only means the same as in my bicycle example "only to" and the "might" means must in this context. So there is no choice in this decree.

It is realistic considering there are people who worship Allah. There is a choice like I said before if there was no choice then we would all be believers.

Oh I would, if it would address the situation. The ones you brought up, don't.

Well you ignored the verses in the quran I used to show that Allah acknowledges there are disbelievers. It seems you want to take the bits of the quran to suit your argument and ignore others that don't fit in with your view but the quran is a complete book and Allah tells us the importance of accepting it all not just parts of it. So again the verses you ignored:

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (5:76)

When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord, (30:33)

If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not (12:40)

Do you really think that if we had no choice in worshipping Allah that He would tell us the above?

I agree with this possibility. And I agree this is a workable model. But that was not my problem. My problem is who went where and made what clear in what language.

We have already been through this with regards to us not knowing the story of every messenger. We know they spoke the language of their people therefore if their people spoke chinese then the messenger spoke chinese. Unfortunately we cannot tell you the exact language of every messenger other than it was that of their people.

Hahaha, no, you did not, I did. I implied this because today we have regions where Islam is totally unknown.

Ok and there are also people today who know about Islam and do not even believe God.

The Koran says that the message was made clear to them, which can't mean the messengers were killed after one sentence, because the message would not have been clear yet, would it?

Being killed after one sentence was not a good analogy on my behalf but what I am saying is that even with a clear message some people choose not to believe it. It is difficult to think of it under todays terms because the world is so globalised but back so many years ago when you had a small community who did not have contact with other people for someone among them to start talking about things that were completely strange to them, the people could have felt that this man was just crazy and telling lies against their own beliefs.

The problem is this: if messengers actually somehow were present in Iceland to make the message clear to the Icelandic people, what language did they use?
1. Arabic, the language the Koran and all messages were revealed in? Well, the Icelandic people would not understand anything and the message could not be made clear to them.
2. Icelandic? Then the people would understand and the message could be made clear. BUT: the messenger would have to receive the message in Arabic. And translate it into Icelandic, which is not possible because the message was revealed in Arabic and can't be perfectly translated.

Well they would have spoke whatever language the Icelandic people spoke. I think you are getting confused with the language of the quran and then the language of all the messengers. Nobody said that arabic is the language of every messenger and that messengers had to translate things. Muhammad pbuh received the message in arabic because he spoke arabic and his people spoke arabic. Allah says in the quran that if he had revealed the quran in a foreign language to Muhammad then the people would have asked why the book was not in arabic if the messenger was an arab. This deals with why the quran was revealed in arabic : you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=KBj227G7MNk

Why would a creator/god, who creates humans to worship him, make me an atheist?Your god creates humans, knows their future, knows they will be atheists and still creates them.What test? Does your god know the future or not? Did he create me to worship him or not? Is it my fault?

As I said before yes God created you to worship only One God Him your Creator, but He also decided that He would allow humans themselves decide if they want to worship Him. Which is why this life is a test of our faith in God. So it is not Allah who made you an atheist rather it is the choice you are making. If we think of it rationally since you said it has no logic then lets use the Rational Actor Model.
This model says that a rational person would do the following : list the Options/Costs/Benefits


Options = 1. Believe and follow the guidance of Allah 2. Do not believe in Allah and do not follow the guidance of Allah
Benefits/Costs = By choosing option one the result is heaven. By choosing option two the result is hell.

Now for a rational thinker they would weigh the benefits. Is it better for me to live this life in accordance to what Allah has guided so that I go to heaven where all my desires will be fulfilled or is it better that I disregard this guidance and go to hell? This is the dilemma that God gives us – he tells us the consequence in advance which should make it easier for us to choose the better option. Now if you reject heaven knowing its benefits far outweigh the benefits of hell – who is to blame? Allah told you the consequence of your actions so you cannot blame Him for warning you.

Why create so many people and 80% will go to hell? Which your creator and god knew?

80% ? I don't believe we can say how many people will go to heaven and how many will go to heaven. You open up a good topic - why God created hell and it is a deep topic that deserves attention which I believe you can start a new thread about it ( and no I am not side stepping your questions its just I think it deserves its own thread rather than a side note about it here). But in short Allah has to show His justice on Judgement day and those who refused him don't deserve to go to heaven with those who worshiped him so much and loved him so much. But there is no doubt that Allah is open to those who seek His guidance as he is the Most Forgiving and Most Merciful as well as being Just.

Edited by Lost_In_Paradise, 11 February 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[Abdul Waduod]

Bismillah,
Innalhamdulillah was-salaatu was-saalam 'alaa rasoolallah.

Assalamu 'alaykum to the muslims and may God guide those who reject to the truth. Ameen

There are many issues here at hand.. so I will briefly point out a few things insha'Allah

ISSUE 1 Point of worship?

a. Allah created this world, created us, and has provided for us. This is a favor for us (HE gains nothing from it)
b. We worship Allah out of love, hope, awe. (those who recognize His favors love Him, those who recognize Him being as the only source, put their hope in Him, those who love Him fear that they may go against the way He is pleased with)
c. Worship has been prescribed to us as a mercy, while God is free from need ( we gain out of worship and it leads us to higher levels of self )
d. The things that have been prohibited for us only protect us from harm. (as a mother protects her childen with her greater knowledge, God after giving us free will grants us guidance to protect us)
e. The things that we have been prescribed to do as obligations only help us excel to get the most out of the blessings of this world (God has made this world subservient for us)

ISSUE 2 - Messengers?

a. Every person without a messenger has been granted the ability to judge between right and wrong.
(wrong doers don't get guidance cause they are doing wrong while they know its wrong)
b. Messengers were sent in order to inform the people of matters that can not be concluded without revelation. ( i.e. - there is life after death, there is heaven, God is watching us, who is God?, etc..)
c. People of different times made up different things about God. Messengers were sent to debate those false ideas/claims.
d. Messengers were sent with revelation and after that.. people twisted, added to, subtracted from, or exaggerated that message. Messengers were sent again to debate and call back to the truth.
e. As for people who never received a message they will be judged in accordance to what they knew. They will be given a just/seperate trial (i.e. someone who lives in a jungle for example)
f. we make no distinction between the prophets and messengers. Some people accepted some and rejected others (specifically the jews who even killed a few of the later ones that were sent to them and they denied others specifically Jesus (alayhis salam))
g. People made up their own methods and this is not acceptable because they did not have the right to do so since God alone has that authority. (if we do it we're playing a mere guessing game)
h. Messengers spoke the language of their people and were instructed to clearly deliver the message so the people could understand.
j. They all delivered the same invitation to God, however some of them brought time specific commands on top of that (ie. a certain people were doing a certain thing so the messenger was sent to them with specific instructions, etc..)
k. Not All of them brought a new time specific law. those who were given a new law are known as messengers while those who renewed the last law sent are known as prophets.

ISSUE 3 - The Test?

a. those who live a wicked life are granted a period out of mercy to turn around. chance after chance to fix up. (why did he make me a criminal? You choose that way and still have the chance to stop the crime before death)
b. those who lived a wicked life when gathered on the day of judgement will be presented their deeds and will themselves recognize their crimes and failure.
c. no one will be wronged during judgement, it will be done with absolute justice.
d. the life is a trial for us (ie. a chance to pick right over wrong or wrong over right)
e. the criminals will have no one to blame except themselves ( excuses like people make in this world will not be accepted. i.e - he made me do it, etc..)
f. the criminals themselves will testify how they earned failure and are deserving of punishment.
g. False slander, lies against God will be punished because people did not have the right to make up things about God
h. False methods will not be accepted because people did not have that authority to make them.


ISSUE 4 - Disbelievers?

a. People disbelieve in God out of arrogance (they think they are superior, mutual rivalry, god complex)
b. People disbelieve in God out of persistence of evil (they dont want to give it up or have drowned themselves so far in it that its blinded them)
c. People disbelieve in God out of pride (they stick to their ways i.e.- what their for-fathers are upon)
d. People disbelieve in God out of doubt (they lack proper knowledge and wander in confusion)
e. People disbelieve in God out of greed (they are so hungry for one thing or another they forget the one who provided them in the first place)
f. People disbelieve in God out of idolizing people/creation (this includes the following of other men and leaders, giving the creation such exaggerated status, etc.)
g. People disbelieve in God out of stubbornness (habitually misguided, especially upon preconceived ideas)
h. People disbelieve in God because the devil whispers to them and they follow.
i . People disbelieve in God because they have wrong lowly ideas about God

There are a lot of other issues that need to be mentioned here and lots more that can be added to the brief outline I've posted. Lets digest this first before moving on.

Edited by Abdul Waduod, 12 February 2012 - 05:30 AM.

[StopS]

It is realistic considering there are people who worship Allah. There is a choice like I said before if there was no choice then we would all be believers.

Well you ignored the verses in the quran I used to show that Allah acknowledges there are disbelievers. It seems you want to take the bits of the quran to suit your argument and ignore others that don't fit in with your view but the quran is a complete book and Allah tells us the importance of accepting it all not just parts of it. So again the verses you ignored:

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (5:76)

When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord, (30:33)

If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not (12:40)

Do you really think that if we had no choice in worshipping Allah that He would tell us the above?

My point was different. I asked why it is possible that if a god simply exists and for some reason decides he requires worship and creates a planet with humans for that purpose, how the created humans will not do what they were created for? Only ~ 20% do. ~80% don't.

Does this mean:
free choice brings humans to not worship that god?
does this god not know that ~80% of his creation will worship other gods or nothing?

We have already been through this with regards to us not knowing the story of every messenger. We know they spoke the language of their people therefore if their people spoke chinese then the messenger spoke chinese. Unfortunately we cannot tell you the exact language of every messenger other than it was that of their people.

Well they would have spoke whatever language the Icelandic people spoke. I think you are getting confused with the language of the quran and then the language of all the messengers. Nobody said that arabic is the language of every messenger and that messengers had to translate things. Muhammad pbuh received the message in arabic because he spoke arabic and his people spoke arabic. Allah says in the quran that if he had revealed the quran in a foreign language to Muhammad then the people would have asked why the book was not in arabic if the messenger was an arab. This deals with why the quran was revealed in arabic

You are right. And has it been answered? No.
All aspects were repeated, but without solution. Can you describe the entire process to me?

You are constantly confusing messengers with Muhammad and the Koran in Arabic with the message in all languages. And then, to make matters worse, you take Zakir Naik, who is really idiotic, and who then tells us that the Koran was for all mankind and that's why it was revealed in Arabic in Arabia. Oh please!

Why don't you try and create the entire story from beginning to end?
1. A man is given a message.
2. It is called the Koran.
3. He now has to make this message clear to the Icelandic people.
4a. He starts in Arabia with the Koran in Arabic and travels to Iceland.
4b. He starts in Arabia with the Koran in Icelandic and travels to Iceland.
4c. He starts in Iceland with the Koran in Arabic and has to explain everything.
4d. He starts in Iceland with the Koran in Icelandic.
5. He explains everything and makes the message clear.

Which version is it? Are there other variants?

As I said before yes God created you to worship only One God Him your Creator, but He also decided that He would allow humans themselves decide if they want to worship Him. Which is why this life is a test of our faith in God. So it is not Allah who made you an atheist rather it is the choice you are making. If we think of it rationally since you said it has no logic then lets use the Rational Actor Model.
This model says that a rational person would do the following : list the Options/Costs/Benefits

Options = 1. Believe and follow the guidance of Allah 2. Do not believe in Allah and do not follow the guidance of Allah
Benefits/Costs = By choosing option one the result is heaven. By choosing option two the result is hell.

So with that you are saying is that I will go to hell and get tortured for eternity. For what? What law have I broken? What damage have I caused that I need this harsh punishment?

Because I don't see any evidence for the existence of a god? Who hides and threatens me, using a book? Written in a language I don't speak or understand?

Now for a rational thinker they would weigh the benefits. Is it better for me to live this life in accordance to what Allah has guided so that I go to heaven where all my desires will be fulfilled or is it better that I disregard this guidance and go to hell? This is the dilemma that God gives us – he tells us the consequence in advance which should make it easier for us to choose the better option. Now if you reject heaven knowing its benefits far outweigh the benefits of hell – who is to blame? Allah told you the consequence of your actions so you cannot blame Him for warning you.

Oh no! Pascal's wager? Why!? It's primitive, wrong and dishonest. I am disappointed.

The 80% comes form the fact out of every human created, only 1 out of 5 is a Muslim. 1.5 billion out of 7 billion total.

[StopS]

Bismillah,
Innalhamdulillah was-salaatu was-saalam 'alaa rasoolallah.

Assalamu 'alaykum to the muslims and may God guide those who reject to the truth. Ameen

There are many issues here at hand.. so I will briefly point out a few things insha'Allah

ISSUE 1 Point of worship?


ISSUE 2 - Messengers?

b. Messengers were sent in order to inform the people of matters that can not be concluded without revelation. ( i.e. - there is life after death, there is heaven, God is watching us, who is God?, etc..)

ISSUE 3 - The Test?


ISSUE 4 - Disbelievers?


There are a lot of other issues that need to be mentioned here and lots more that can be added to the brief outline I've posted. Lets digest this first before moving on.

Does this have anything useful in response to my questions?

The only remotely related point is 2b, but that only repeats the problem. It does not provide an answer.

I am absolutely and totally shocked and appalled by issue 4 and the unbelievably insulting, stupid and wrong statements made there. What idiot compiled that list? Where does it come from?

And what the person who compiled this list clearly missed is that it shows exactly why religions are not trustworthy: a person leading a life guided by humanitarian principles without faith in gods, demons, spirits, jinns, angels, etc will go to hell for not having faith. Nonsensical.

Edited by StopS, 14 February 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[TJB]

All the messengers of Allah were Muslim. Allah sent messengers to every nation so that when it is Judgement Day people cannot say they did not know about Allah. Muhammad pbuh is the only messenger that was sent to all of mankind and his message was the quran.
In the quran only some of the stories of messengers before Muhammad are told to us. However, Allah does tell us that there are messengers that came before Muhammad whose story has not been told to us.

And, indeed We have sent messengers before you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): of some of them We have related to you their story. And of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. But, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (40:78)

All the messengers of Allah were Muslim. Allah sent messengers to every nation so that when it is Judgement Day people cannot say they did not know about Allah. Muhammad pbuh is the only messenger that was sent to all of mankind and his message was the quran.
In the quran only some of the stories of messengers before Muhammad are told to us. However, Allah does tell us that there are messengers that came before Muhammad whose story has not been told to us.

And, indeed We have sent messengers before you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): of some of them We have related to you their story. And of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. But, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (40:78)

Im not sure i agree with that statement. God does not say that about Ibraheem (pbuh)..all he states in the Qur'aan is that he was 'an upright' man. Meaning a god fearing man...labels are given because we a human beings need them to keep us in check, we need order and a discipline to follow to keep us on the straight and narrow otherwise most of us loose our way...I think that ALL the prophets were righteous, upright, god fearing men but we are not told they were ALL muslim men.

[ParadiseLost]

Im not sure i agree with that statement. God does not say that about Ibraheem (pbuh)..all he states in the Qur'aan is that he was 'an upright' man. Meaning a god fearing man...labels are given because we a human beings need them to keep us in check, we need order and a discipline to follow to keep us on the straight and narrow otherwise most of us loose our way...I think that ALL the prophets were righteous, upright, god fearing men but we are not told they were ALL muslim men.

Are you saying that not all the messengers of Allah were Muslim? Muslim is one who submits to God and all the messengers submitted to God. Also Muhammad pbuh told us they were of one religion which obviously implies Islam and therefore they were all Muslims.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I am most akin to Jesus Christ among the whole of mankind, and all the Prophets are of different mothers but belong to one religion and no Prophet was raised between me and Jesus. (Sahih Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5835).

[TJB]

They 'knew' God so then how could they not follow God, so yes they all followed 'Islam' but only in the direct translation of the word, Islam means submission so yes they submitted, I just wouldnt like to put the Prophets in boxes they were good righteous god fearing men, if we truely followed any one of them,David (PBUH) Moses (PBUH), Jesus (PBUH), Muhammed (PBUH) surely we would all end up at the foot of the same Throne. God does not label us, as muslim and non muslim, we are simply either god-fearing (submitters) or not. He asks us to submit, thats all, i just feel uncomfortable with the need we have to put everything and everyone into boxes and label them as either this or that...

[ParadiseLost]

They 'knew' God so then how could they not follow God, so yes they all followed 'Islam' but only in the direct translation of the word, Islam means submission so yes they submitted, I just wouldnt like to put the Prophets in boxes they were good righteous god fearing men, if we truely followed any one of them,David (PBUH) Moses (PBUH), Jesus (PBUH), Muhammed (PBUH) surely we would all end up at the foot of the same Throne. God does not label us, as muslim and non muslim, we are simply either god-fearing (submitters) or not. He asks us to submit, thats all, i just feel uncomfortable with the need we have to put everything and everyone into boxes and label them as either this or that...

God does label us. God doesn't put is into boxes in relation to race or gender etc but He does in relation to whether we are disbelievers and believers. This can be seen throughout the quran.

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Not equal are Al-Khabith (all that is evil and bad as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons and foods) and At-Taiyyib (all that is good as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods), even though the abundance of Al-Khabith may please you." So fear Allah , O men of understanding in order that you may be successful. (5.100)


What religion do you think the messengers were if they were not Muslim??And if you feel uncomfortable with calling all the messengers of Allah Muslim then I advice you to read more about Islam because it is quite clear that we are supposed to believe this.

[Ron Shirt]

I was wondering what about the Buddha, Krishna, Vishnu and the countless other followers of God that have manifested themselves in the world at diferrent times and places. All deluded, mad or simply liars?

regards,

ron

[ParadiseLost]

I was wondering what about the Buddha, Krishna, Vishnu and the countless other followers of God that have manifested themselves in the world at diferrent times and places. All deluded, mad or simply liars?

regards,

ron

Sometimes people stray from the original message and develop their own perception of God. I gave the example of the story of Moses previously although I am not sure you believe in that. But even today people bring things into Islam that the Prophet never taught us which shows that people still stray from the original message.

[AHMAD_73]

They 'knew' God so then how could they not follow God, so yes they all followed 'Islam' but only in the direct translation of the word, Islam means submission so yes they submitted, I just wouldnt like to put the Prophets in boxes they were good righteous god fearing men, if we truely followed any one of them,David (PBUH) Moses (PBUH), Jesus (PBUH), Muhammed (PBUH) surely we would all end up at the foot of the same Throne. God does not label us, as muslim and non muslim, we are simply either god-fearing (submitters) or not. He asks us to submit, thats all, i just feel uncomfortable with the need we have to put everything and everyone into boxes and label them as either this or that...

i can't see any difference, the name gives the meaning and the meaning denotes the name, every one who followed the updated god's orders, in his time, is "the time Moslem". we ,the Moslems, are the followers of the final god's message.

Allah who chose the name "Moslems" to denote the "surenders to his well", long time before Mohammad (pbuh)
022.078Y: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

on the tongue of the great prophet Noah (pbuh), he tells he had been commanded to call himself a Moslem
010.072Y: "But if ye turn back, (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be of those who, " are Moslems", submit to Allah's will (in Islam)."

وَاتْلُ عَلَيْهِمْ نَبَأَ نُوحٍ إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ إِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكُم مَّقَامِي وَتَذْكِيرِي بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ فَعَلَى اللّهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ فَأَجْمِعُواْ أَمْرَكُمْ وَشُرَكَاءكُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَكُنْ أَمْرُكُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ غُمَّةً ثُمَّ اقْضُواْ إِلَيَّ وَلاَ تُنظِرُونِ {71} فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَمَا سَأَلْتُكُم مِّنْ أَجْرٍ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلاَّ عَلَى اللّهِ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {72}

[Ron Shirt]

Sometimes people stray from the original message and develop their own perception of God. I gave the example of the story of Moses previously although I am not sure you believe in that. But even today people bring things into Islam that the Prophet never taught us which shows that people still stray from the original message.

Well the personages I mentioned came well before Muhammad who is generally seen as the prophet who began the religion of Islam (as most people would see it). And also they emerged from hugely diferrent cultures. To me, 'the Prophet' appears to be 'your messiah'.
Also Muslims themselves appear to me to have their 'own perception of God'. Although perhaps that should read as 'concept of', more specifically.
Surely God must be a global phenomenon?

regards,

ron

[ParadiseLost]

Well the personages I mentioned came well before Muhammad who is generally seen as the prophet who began the religion of Islam (as most people would see it). And also they emerged from hugely diferrent cultures. To me, 'the Prophet' appears to be 'your messiah'.
Also Muslims themselves appear to me to have their 'own perception of God'. Although perhaps that should read as 'concept of', more specifically.
Surely God must be a global phenomenon?

regards,

ron

I know that people believed in these idols before Muhammad pbuh came, people have been creating idols for a very very long time. Please read through previous posts in this thread as I gave examples of this from the Islamic perspective. Many messengers came before Muhammad and not all of their people chose to believe their message of one God. Is that really hard to believe? This still happens today so I really don't know why people find it hard to believe that people of the past chose not to believe in one God if people still do this today. You are right that they emerged from different cultures because Allah made us into communities/nations of peoples and each had their own messenger. Muhammad pbuh is the only prophet who was a prophet for all of mankind unlike previous times. We don't view Muhammad as being the prophet who began the religion of Islam though as we believe Adam pbuh was the first Muslim. And by the way we view Jesus as the Messiah.

[StopS]

God doesn't put is into boxes in relation to race or gender etc

And if you feel uncomfortable with calling all the messengers of Allah Muslim then I advice you to read more about Islam because it is quite clear that we are supposed to believe this.

If men and women are equal, why are there so many sentences and rules only for women?
If men and women are equal, why are there sentences giving men and women different roles and values?

And my question remains: by what means were the messages conveyed to the people in Iceland? Nobody has answered this yet. I get single words and many quotes, but no consistent methodology or process.
So, I agree, Islam should be universal and not just 20% of humans.

[ParadiseLost]

If men and women are equal, why are there so many sentences and rules only for women?
If men and women are equal, why are there sentences giving men and women different roles and values?

Who said men and women are equal? I was referring to their beliefs. God only judges us on the basis of our belief in Him and not by the colour of our skin and gender. i.e. a white muslim is no better than a chinese muslim and a female muslim is no better than a male muslim. Basically it is not your race or gender that makes you a better Muslim.
Allah has promised the believers - men and women, - Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein forever, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of 'Adn (Eden Paradise). But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah. That is the supreme success. (9:72)

[AHMAD_73]

If men and women are equal, why are there so many sentences and rules only for women?
If men and women are equal, why are there sentences giving men and women different roles and values?

yes there is absolute equality between man and women in dignity, freedom of ownning and disposing properties, rewards of good deeds,........

while due to the difference in creation, in authorities and responsipilities in the family, for the ultimate benifit of the familiy and the whole society, Islam deals with man and woman on the basis of fairness and justice, not equality. that will benifit the women in the first degree. justice is the ultimate quality humanity seeks for, the orgnization responsible to give evry person's rights is called " ministry of justice".

for example: if women is obligated to cover her beauty places (because she is more blessed with many than man). if Islam ordered here, as one woman, to do so, not to attract some other men's eyes. Islam is really paid here forwared, by ordering all other women to do the same and so Islam saved here all of here husband (unknown future husband) feelings, emosions, money and physical power. realy, she is the winner.

if you have two sons who are different in physical power, what concept will you use to divid loads between them (equalitiy or justice)????

[StopS]

Who said men and women are equal? I was referring to their beliefs. God only judges us on the basis of our belief in Him and not by the colour of our skin and gender. i.e. a white muslim is no better than a chinese muslim and a female muslim is no better than a male muslim. Basically it is not your race or gender that makes you a better Muslim.
Allah has promised the believers - men and women, - Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein forever, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of 'Adn (Eden Paradise). But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah. That is the supreme success. (9:72)

Ah ok, then sorry, it was my mis-understanding.
So then why the special treatment of women in everyday life, making them half the value of men?
And I still have a question regarding the derogatory sentences towards blacks in the sunnah. Are they also irrelevant?

[StopS]

yes there is absolute equality between man and women in dignity, freedom of ownning and disposing properties, rewards of good deeds,........

Why then do the 3 inheritance paragraphs declare that in most cases women receive half of what men receive - regardless of circumstances, where a mother of 4 children has lost the sole supporter of the family and her brother, a single, wealthy businessman, gets double?

for example: if women is obligated to cover her beauty places (because she is more blessed with many than man). if Islam ordered here, as one woman, to do so, not to attract some other men's eyes. Islam is really paid here forwared, by ordering all other women to do the same and so Islam saved here all of here husband (unknown future husband) feelings, emosions, money and physical power. realy, she is the winner.

My solution would be much easier and make humans have equal rights:
order men not treat women harshly and against their wishes.
Instead of allowing men to beat women, order men never to beat women.

So you see, it would be very easy, with just 2 decrees to solve all issues. But then, I am just a human who uses common sense.

[ParadiseLost]

Ah ok, then sorry, it was my mis-understanding.
So then why the special treatment of women in everyday life, making them half the value of men?
And I still have a question regarding the derogatory sentences towards blacks in the sunnah. Are they also irrelevant?

In Islam us women embrace our differences. Allah understands our differences and we accept that. As a female I don't believe that a man and a woman are equal because I believe women differ from men emotionally etc. Whether you believe that or not is your own decision.

Also with regarding black people this topic was brought up in another thread if you look through it you will see many people explained how racism is not part of Islam.

[AHMAD_73]

Why then do the 3 inheritance paragraphs declare that in most cases women receive half of what men receive - regardless of circumstances, where a mother of 4 children has lost the sole supporter of the family and her brother, a single, wealthy businessman, gets double?

in the Islamic family model, the man is responsible of providing every facility for his family members, house, food, clothing, health care, .......while the woman doesn't have any finantial obligations, even in case of divorce. to legeslate a law, any where in the world, it have to satisfy the majority and general cases requirements in the society, while you may state a biside recommendation for the emergency cases.

what you stated is an emergency case, in which the father have to solve before his death, if he saw one of his family is in more need of money than the others he have the right to grant him, in his life, the amount of money he needs withen a limitation of one third of total properities. as been stated in the hadeeth.

in fact, the brothers /uncles/....are ordered to take care of such woman either if there is a inheritance or no.

My solution would be much easier and make humans have equal rights:

to equate between the non-equated is an act of injustice, Islam distributed the responsibilities and the authorities in the most just and fair mannar.

order men not treat women harshly and against their wishes.

that's the main stream in Islamic teachings
in the hadeeth " the best among you is the best in his family (wife) site,....." " the best Dinar ($) man spend is the one he spends on his family..." ....

Instead of allowing men to beat women, order men never to beat women.

although this is the third option in a reform process for the "unobediant wife" including 1- advising for days/weeks and then 2- not giving the wife her bed right for days/weeks, and the criteria of beating , i can assure that it's mainly for deterring. why can't you imagine that there could be a bad wife that may need some reforming before the issue getting worth for here and the whole family.

if the woman feels that she is not guilty, she have the right to:
1- requist a "family judegement", that consists of two members, both husbands trust, one of his family and the other from her family.
2- if she didn't accept the judgement she may raise a case in the court,
3- if she didn't like the judgement, she have the right to requist divorce (khola'a) even befor the first stage of solving the problem, advising.