It is realistic considering there are people who worship Allah. There is a choice like I said before if there was no choice then we would all be believers.
Ah, now we are getting to the point that interests me. Is it "realistic" for humans, who, as 51:56 puts it: "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me", where the only means the same as in my bicycle example "only to" and the "might" means must in this context. So there is no choice in this decree.
Well you ignored the verses in the quran I used to show that Allah acknowledges there are disbelievers. It seems you want to take the bits of the quran to suit your argument and ignore others that don't fit in with your view but the quran is a complete book and Allah tells us the importance of accepting it all not just parts of it. So again the verses you ignored:
Oh I would, if it would address the situation. The ones you brought up, don't.
Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (5:76)
When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord, (30:33)
If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not (12:40)
Do you really think that if we had no choice in worshipping Allah that He would tell us the above?
We have already been through this with regards to us not knowing the story of every messenger. We know they spoke the language of their people therefore if their people spoke chinese then the messenger spoke chinese. Unfortunately we cannot tell you the exact language of every messenger other than it was that of their people.
I agree with this possibility. And I agree this is a workable model. But that was not my problem. My problem is who went where and made what clear in what language.
Ok and there are also people today who know about Islam and do not even believe God.
Hahaha, no, you did not, I did. I implied this because today we have regions where Islam is totally unknown.
Being killed after one sentence was not a good analogy on my behalf but what I am saying is that even with a clear message some people choose not to believe it. It is difficult to think of it under todays terms because the world is so globalised but back so many years ago when you had a small community who did not have contact with other people for someone among them to start talking about things that were completely strange to them, the people could have felt that this man was just crazy and telling lies against their own beliefs.
The Koran says that the message was made clear to them, which can't mean the messengers were killed after one sentence, because the message would not have been clear yet, would it?
Well they would have spoke whatever language the Icelandic people spoke. I think you are getting confused with the language of the quran and then the language of all the messengers. Nobody said that arabic is the language of every messenger and that messengers had to translate things. Muhammad pbuh received the message in arabic because he spoke arabic and his people spoke arabic. Allah says in the quran that if he had revealed the quran in a foreign language to Muhammad then the people would have asked why the book was not in arabic if the messenger was an arab. This deals with why the quran was revealed in arabic : you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=KBj227G7MNk
The problem is this: if messengers actually somehow were present in Iceland to make the message clear to the Icelandic people, what language did they use?
1. Arabic, the language the Koran and all messages were revealed in? Well, the Icelandic people would not understand anything and the message could not be made clear to them.
2. Icelandic? Then the people would understand and the message could be made clear. BUT: the messenger would have to receive the message in Arabic. And translate it into Icelandic, which is not possible because the message was revealed in Arabic and can't be perfectly translated.
As I said before yes God created you to worship only One God Him your Creator, but He also decided that He would allow humans themselves decide if they want to worship Him. Which is why this life is a test of our faith in God. So it is not Allah who made you an atheist rather it is the choice you are making. If we think of it rationally since you said it has no logic then lets use the Rational Actor Model.
Why would a creator/god, who creates humans to worship him, make me an atheist?Your god creates humans, knows their future, knows they will be atheists and still creates them.What test? Does your god know the future or not? Did he create me to worship him or not? Is it my fault?
This model says that a rational person would do the following : list the Options/Costs/Benefits
Options = 1. Believe and follow the guidance of Allah 2. Do not believe in Allah and do not follow the guidance of Allah
Benefits/Costs = By choosing option one the result is heaven. By choosing option two the result is hell.
Now for a rational thinker they would weigh the benefits. Is it better for me to live this life in accordance to what Allah has guided so that I go to heaven where all my desires will be fulfilled or is it better that I disregard this guidance and go to hell? This is the dilemma that God gives us – he tells us the consequence in advance which should make it easier for us to choose the better option. Now if you reject heaven knowing its benefits far outweigh the benefits of hell – who is to blame? Allah told you the consequence of your actions so you cannot blame Him for warning you.
80% ? I don't believe we can say how many people will go to heaven and how many will go to heaven. You open up a good topic - why God created hell and it is a deep topic that deserves attention which I believe you can start a new thread about it ( and no I am not side stepping your questions its just I think it deserves its own thread rather than a side note about it here). But in short Allah has to show His justice on Judgement day and those who refused him don't deserve to go to heaven with those who worshiped him so much and loved him so much. But there is no doubt that Allah is open to those who seek His guidance as he is the Most Forgiving and Most Merciful as well as being Just.
Why create so many people and 80% will go to hell? Which your creator and god knew?
Edited by Lost_In_Paradise, 11 February 2012 - 08:02 PM.