18 replies to this topic

[atheism101]

Correct me if I am wrong, but according to Islam every community before the final prophet was sent a prophet at some point with the message that there is one God. If this is true, why do we not find historical monotheistic religions scattered around the globe? Did all of these prophets just fail?

[AHMAD_73]

Correct me if I am wrong, but according to Islam every community before the final prophet was sent a prophet at some point with the message that there is one God. If this is true, why do we not find historical monotheistic religions scattered around the globe? Did all of these prophets just fail?

in the Egyption history, in 1369 BC there is a pharoah who is name إخناتون (Akhenaten، Ikhnaton), he changed the old multible god's believes , including himself, the Egption had for millinioms, . he worshiped and many of the Egyption one god, they represent by the sun attributes. he is the only pharoah along with his wife decided to show him self as a normal human in front of one god. that forced him to leave the nominal capital at the time, Tebah, Luxor, and build a new cabital "Tal-Alamaranah". after 17 years of ruling and fighting with the old religious wuthorities, Akhenaten pathed away and followed by his brother who collapsed the new capital as well as the new religion and tried his best to erase every evedance of it.

on the same mannar, the Quran speaks about many people who believed while after a while the satan along with the human lusts took the next genrations astray.
the people of YOUNOS (pbuh) in Nenaway in IRAQ, belived and followed the god. Allah saved the monotheistic people along with Noah while some next generations the people gone astray.

we don't know at what time that was, where exactily, at what civilization step in humanity, what kind of evedance they should left to us, what the next generations did for these evedances.

in the relative new era at the time of Ibrahim (pbuh),2000 BC, i believe there is some evedances about the pursish of LOT (pbuh) people, in the southern part of the dead sea.

Edited by AHMAD_73, 29 January 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[EasternQibla]

Correct me if I am wrong, but according to Islam every community before the final prophet was sent a prophet at some point with the message that there is one God. If this is true, why do we not find historical monotheistic religions scattered around the globe? Did all of these prophets just fail?

What proof would you think exists? The people of Allaah worshipped only the indivisible Allaah who has no form to be represented and is beyond all creation. Yet they had images in their worship. We read in a tafsir about Solomon:

34:13
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs :
(They made for him what he willed: synagogues and statues) of angels, prophets and other righteous servants so that people look at them and follow their example of worshipping Allah

So just because archaeological digs at ancient worship places find images, does not mean they did not worship Allaah alone. (It is the style of images which can be important. In israel, two types of female figurines have been found, sexual ones and motherly ones. The motherly ones are the ones which Allaah allowed through Solomon, the sexual ones are the deviant ones.)

Additionally, when describing heavenly beings, the ancients used animal symbolism:

Bible, Ezekiel 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

And as Tafsir al-Jalalayn comments on [7:148]:

And the people of Moses, after him, that is, after he had departed for the communion [with God], made of their ornaments, which they had borrowed from Pharaoh’s folk on the pretext of a wedding celebration, and which remained in their possession, a calf, which the Samaritan had fashioned for them therefrom; a [mere] living body (jasadan is a substitution [for ‘ijlan, ‘a calf’]), of flesh and blood, which lowed, that is, [which] made audible sounds [like a cow]: it [the calf] was transformed in this way when the dust, which he [the Samaritan] had collected from [where] the hoof of Gabriel’s steed [had trodden], was placed in its mouth, …

That is why people started to worship animals, and also sun moon and stars. Other people wanted glory for themselves so they took the descriptions of the heavenly beings and the outward forms of worship and created their own religion from their imagination, being ignorant of what God's people were doing and thinking.

Nevertheless, initially, outwardly there would appear to be little or no difference between idolatrous worship and the worship of Allaah, with images which Allaah wanted for us "so that people look at them and follow their example of worshipping Allah". This is how the deceivers were able to seduce the people.

Richard

[atheism101]

in the Egyption history, in 1369 BC there is a pharoah who is name ÅÎäÇÊæä (Akhenaten¡ Ikhnaton), he changed the old multible god's believes , including himself, the Egption had for millinioms, . he worshiped and many of the Egyption one god, they represent by the sun attributes. he is the only pharoah along with his wife decided to show him self as a normal human in front of one god. that forced him to leave the nominal capital at the time, Tebah, Luxor, and build a new cabital "Tal-Alamaranah". after 17 years of ruling and fighting with the old religious wuthorities, Akhenaten pathed away and followed by his brother who collapsed the new capital as well as the new religion and tried his best to erase every evedance of it.

on the same mannar, the Quran speaks about many people who believed while after a while the satan along with the human lusts took the next genrations astray.
the people of YOUNOS (pbuh) in Nenaway in IRAQ, belived and followed the god. Allah saved the monotheistic people along with Noah while some next generations the people gone astray.

we don't know at what time that was, where exactily, at what civilization step in humanity, what kind of evedance they should left to us, what the next generations did for these evedances.

in the relative new era at the time of Ibrahim (pbuh),2000 BC, i believe there is some evedances about the pursish of LOT (pbuh) people, in the southern part of the dead sea.

That time is about the time when Judaism started. I don't think Muslims believe there were other prophets at that time, but again, correct me if I am wrong. Plus, we already know about Judaism at this time so it doesn't matter.
I am considering the fact that most evidence suggests polytheistic societies and monotheism is relatively new. We've been around for, what, 30k years?

[atheism101]

What proof would you think exists? The people of Allaah worshipped only the indivisible Allaah who has no form to be represented and is beyond all creation. Yet they had images in their worship. We read in a tafsir about Solomon:
So just because archaeological digs at ancient worship places find images, does not mean they did not worship Allaah alone. (It is the style of images which can be important. In israel, two types of female figurines have been found, sexual ones and motherly ones. The motherly ones are the ones which Allaah allowed through Solomon, the sexual ones are the deviant ones.)

Additionally, when describing heavenly beings, the ancients used animal symbolism:
And as Tafsir al-Jalalayn comments on [7:148]:
That is why people started to worship animals, and also sun moon and stars. Other people wanted glory for themselves so they took the descriptions of the heavenly beings and the outward forms of worship and created their own religion from their imagination, being ignorant of what God's people were doing and thinking.

Nevertheless, initially, outwardly there would appear to be little or no difference between idolatrous worship and the worship of Allaah, with images which Allaah wanted for us "so that people look at them and follow their example of worshipping Allah". This is how the deceivers were able to seduce the people.

Richard

Well I don't think any proof exists. In fact evidence is to the contrary as it suggests that monotheistic ideas are more recent in our history.
That they had images suggests they did not follow Islam.

[EasternQibla]

Well I don't think any proof exists. In fact evidence is to the contrary as it suggests that monotheistic ideas are more recent in our history.
That they had images suggests they did not follow Islam.

King Solomon had images in his temple: how modern day Islam reconciles that with itself is another thing. I think the most correct one is that God's people before Muhammad (God rest his soul) were allowed images of people, animals, etc.

Hence, as I said, the existence of images does not at all imply lack of sole worship of Allaah. Serpents are frequent in early Islamic art, around Masjids as well, I think.

What evidence do you have against monotheism?

Richard

[atheism101]

King Solomon had images in his temple: how modern day Islam reconciles that with itself is another thing. I think the most correct one is that God's people before Muhammad (God rest his soul) were allowed images of people, animals, etc.

Hence, as I said, the existence of images does not at all imply lack of sole worship of Allaah. Serpents are frequent in early Islamic art, around Masjids as well, I think.

What evidence do you have against monotheism?

Richard

Idol worship has never been allowed. Please clarify.

Civilizations like the Maya were very old civilizations with no signs of monotheistic belief. If there were so many prophets, were they all just unsuccessful? Why do we only find civilizations like the Maya that were not monotheistic? Were there ANY successful prophets?

[EasternQibla]

Idol worship has never been allowed. Please clarify.

Having images at least is not idolatry in itself, as I quoted above:

34:13
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs :
(They made for him what he willed: synagogues and statues) of angels, prophets and other righteous servants so that people look at them and follow their example of worshipping Allah

Also,

Tafsīr al-Jalālayn on [2:248]:
And their prophet said to them, after they had demanded a sign of his kingship: ‘The sign of his kingship is that there will come to you the Ark, a chest containing the images of the prophets, which God sent down to Adam

So according to this tafsir, images had been allowed (ordained?) by Allaah himself from the start.

Civilizations like the Maya were very old civilizations with no signs of monotheistic belief. If there were so many prophets, were they all just unsuccessful? Why do we only find civilizations like the Maya that were not monotheistic? Were there ANY successful prophets?

'No images' monotheism is a recent movement (innovation?) in humanity. The ancient israelites had images approved by Allaah, but some then fell into idolatry. Others had fallen into idolatry before (so I'm led to believe), but images were still made by Solomon.

PS. We had a discussion on images and kissing them here
(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=726593&view=findpost&p=1246367"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1246367[/url]
-a few emotions were aroused though!

PPS. Since the religion tag has been removed, perhaps I should point out that I am a Christian who is also largely pro-Muhammad (God rest his soul).

[ParadiseLost]

Were there ANY successful prophets?

All the prophets were successful as they gave people the message about the oneness of God. What happens after that is up to the people. Some chose to believe others didn't.

[atheism101]

Having images at least is not idolatry in itself, as I quoted above:
Also,
So according to this tafsir, images had been allowed (ordained?) by Allaah himself from the start.
'No images' monotheism is a recent movement (innovation?) in humanity. The ancient israelites had images approved by Allaah, but some then fell into idolatry. Others had fallen into idolatry before (so I'm led to believe), but images were still made by Solomon.

PS. We had a discussion on images and kissing them here
(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=726593&view=findpost&p=1246367"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...t&p=1246367[/url]
-a few emotions were aroused though!

PPS. Since the religion tag has been removed, perhaps I should point out that I am a Christian who is also largely pro-Muhammad (God rest his soul).

I see your point about the idol worship, but note that we also know about the civilizations themselves. Not only did they have images, we also have detailed ideas about their whole belief system, and it is not monotheistic. Many civilizations believed their social leader to be God, for example, and offered sacrifices in that he may give their civilization more prosperity. To try to make it seem as if it could just as easily have been monotheism is to simply ignore all of what we know about the history.

I don't think there's any way you could be Christian as well as pro-Muhammad. He said that Christianity was wrong. So I don't understand how you could be pro-Muhammad. You would have to believe he was deceived in order to believe that Christianity is true.

All the prophets were successful as they gave people the message about the oneness of God. What happens after that is up to the people. Some chose to believe others didn't.

When I asked that question I was asking if there were any prophets that successfully convinced the masses they had been assigned to that there is one God?

[EasternQibla]

I see your point about the idol worship, but note that we also know about the civilizations themselves. Not only did they have images, we also have detailed ideas about their whole belief system, and it is not monotheistic. Many civilizations believed their social leader to be God, for example, and offered sacrifices in that he may give their civilization more prosperity. To try to make it seem as if it could just as easily have been monotheism is to simply ignore all of what we know about the history.

If they believed that God was limited like a human and had sexual relations with other 'gods' and with humans (like the pagan Greeks, Zeus had sex with just about anything!) then it is wrong. However, angels were described as gods and 'sons of God' in the Bible, because the Light of Allaah shone from them, while Allaah himself is beyond all imagining and shape.

The ancient israelites offered sacrifices, although never human ones, yet I think I did read somewhere that circumcising a male child was described like offering the child to God. We need to be careful about how to interpret terminology!

Richard

[ParadiseLost]

When I asked that question I was asking if there were any prophets that successfully convinced the masses they had been assigned to that there is one God?

Well in order to be unsuccessful it would mean they did not fulfill their duty. Their duty was to warn people and tell people the true message and that is what they did. It is the people who failed to believe as they returned to their old ways of worship.

In my opinion, I think it is more telling that we find evidence of many past nations worshiping somethings/someone than nothing at all.

[atheism101]

If they believed that God was limited like a human and had sexual relations with other 'gods' and with humans (like the pagan Greeks, Zeus had sex with just about anything!) then it is wrong. However, angels were described as gods and 'sons of God' in the Bible, because the Light of Allaah shone from them, while Allaah himself is beyond all imagining and shape.

The ancient israelites offered sacrifices, although never human ones, yet I think I did read somewhere that circumcising a male child was described like offering the child to God. We need to be careful about how to interpret terminology!

Richard

Their beliefs were nothing like monotheism and many did believe in humans to be gods. Again you try to show that the polytheism is somehow still monotheism by saying that the other gods were really angels, servants etc. but this is simply not what the history shows. Do you even care about the truth?
Also just a side note, I don't think angels were described as sons of God in the bible, except maybe fallen angels.

Well in order to be unsuccessful it would mean they did not fulfill their duty. Their duty was to warn people and tell people the true message and that is what they did. It is the people who failed to believe as they returned to their old ways of worship.

In my opinion, I think it is more telling that we find evidence of many past nations worshiping somethings/someone than nothing at all.

Like I said I am asking if there were any prophets that successfully convinced the masses they were assigned to. Do you plan on answering this question?
The fact that past nations believed in gods very different from those today would be exactly what we would expect from an atheistic perspective, and it is the exact opposite of what we would expect from an Islamic perspective.

[ParadiseLost]

Like I said I am asking if there were any prophets that successfully convinced the masses they were assigned to. Do you plan on answering this question?
The fact that past nations believed in gods very different from those today would be exactly what we would expect from an atheistic perspective, and it is the exact opposite of what we would expect from an Islamic perspective.

I did answer the question. I said not all people chose to believe in one God even though their messenger told them.

There is nothing in Islam that says by sending messengers that the result will be that everyone will believe in one God and that there should be no sign of polytheism so that is just your opinion. If that was the result then God wouldn't have had sent more messengers after Adam pbuh. Unfortunately throughout the beginning of time humans have continued to forget God, to worship other things and people which is why God continued to send messengers to remind people. Even Muhammad pbuh told people about one God yet some refused to worship one God. However there is no blame on Muhammad because of the decision they took.

As an atheist wouldn't you expect people to believe in nothing rather than something?

[atheism101]

I did answer the question. I said not all people chose to believe in one God even though their messenger told them.

There is nothing in Islam that says by sending messengers that the result will be that everyone will believe in one God and that there should be no sign of polytheism so that is just your opinion. If that was the result then God wouldn't have had sent more messengers after Adam pbuh. Unfortunately throughout the beginning of time humans have continued to forget God, to worship other things and people which is why God continued to send messengers to remind people. Even Muhammad pbuh told people about one God yet some refused to worship one God. However there is no blame on Muhammad because of the decision they took.

As an atheist wouldn't you expect people to believe in nothing rather than something?

I don't care if not all people chose to believe. At least some messenger must have convinced the majority, though? Or did all of them fail to do this? I think you are avoiding simply saying, yes, all of them failed to convince the majority. Don't be ashamed of what you believe.

That's not true. Messengers were sent for different groups of people around the world in different time periods (according to Islam). So even if prophets convinced everyone there would still be a need for other prophets in other areas. Furthermore it is understandable that after a good amount of time the teachings would need to be revived with another messenger. Of course, we would still see the waves of monotheism. The problem is, we don't. There simply isn't monotheism much too far in our history. You must ignore history to claim that ideas of monotheism were revived time and time again all over the world. Such a claim is not what is suggested by the evidence. Monotheism seems like a more recent idea.

No, I would definitely expect people to believe in gods before even the oldest religions like hinduism. It perfectly explains why we have religion in the first place. Primitive men developed myths to explain that which they could not understand. Humans always look for purpose, cause and effect, etc. due to being naturally inclined to do so. It makes perfect sense that primitive gods explained much more, such as the sun going around the earth was God carrying it around, as compared to modern humans. As gaps in knowledge begin to fill up (such as understanding gravity/rotation was the cause of day and night) these questions no longer needed to be answered by a supernatural cause. So as humans understand more and more, the supernatural is less and less necessary. Thus it makes perfect sense that if we went further back in time, primitive gods would generally involve polythiesm, explaining the many mysteries. As humans learned more we would generally expect that ideas such as monotheism would arise. Thus the history fits perfectly well with the atheistic world view, not with the Islamic worldview, in which we would expect monotheism to have been around all over the world since the history of mankind, getting revived frequently.

[ParadiseLost]

I think you are avoiding simply saying, yes, all of them failed to convince the majority. Don't be ashamed of what you believe.

I am certainly not ashamed with what I believe. I did answer your question that the messengers did not fail - why would I say the messengers failed when their purpose was to spread the message of truth and they did that. The messengers are not judged by how many numbers they manage to convert. Majorities don't necessarily reflect truth. It is not difficult for me to say that humans failed many times because they refused to accept the truth.

[atheism101]

I am certainly not ashamed with what I believe. I did answer your question that the messengers did not fail - why would I say the messengers failed when their purpose was to spread the message of truth and they did that. The messengers are not judged by how many numbers they manage to convert. Majorities don't necessarily reflect truth. It is not difficult for me to say that humans failed many times because they refused to accept the truth.

I've made this clear previously, but perhaps I have to spell it out again. You have two choices:

1-All prophets (before the start of Judaism) were unable to to convert the masses.
2-Not all prophets failed to convert the masses.

There are only two choices. Do you pick the first choice or the second choice? There is no logical third choice - one of these two choices must be true. So all you have to do is pick a number: 1 or 2?

[EasternQibla]

Their beliefs were nothing like monotheism and many did believe in humans to be gods. Again you try to show that the polytheism is somehow still monotheism by saying that the other gods were really angels, servants etc. but this is simply not what the history shows. Do you even care about the truth?

Polytheism is not monotheism, but certain descriptions of monotheism can look like polytheism, as mentioned above (e.g. Solomon making images). Hence, it is quite possible that polytheism came from a misunderstanding of monotheism.

The fact that past nations believed in gods very different from those today would be exactly what we would expect from an atheistic perspective, and it is the exact opposite of what we would expect from an Islamic perspective

This is actually quite false when we consider what the similarities were. Why is it that in ancient civilisations from (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsacred-destinations(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/canada/peterborough-petroglyphs.htm"]America[/url] to (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Solar_deity#Solar_barge"]Egypt[/url] and elsewhere, there is the consistent symbolism of the sun riding in a boat (or later a chariot)? When looked at, no boat feature can be seen. So where did this symbolism come from?

In the Quran we read (and similar in the Bible):

11: 7. He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

The sun riding in a boat must have come from misunderstanding such references of Allaah's Messengers and Prophets. Allaah has been likened to the sun in the hadith (and also Bible):

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: During the lifetime of the Prophet some people said, : O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Yes; do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at midday when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." The Prophet said, "(Similarly) you will have no difficulty in seeing Allah on the Day of Resurrection as you have no difficulty in seeing either of them. … " (Book #60, Hadith #105)

So therefore,

1-All prophets (before the start of Judaism) were unable to to convert the masses.

This is false: remember that Islaam before Muhammad (God rest his soul) allowed images of angles and people, music, drinking wine in moderation, and also using the term "sons of Allaah" (see (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737969&view=findpost&p=1254273"]this post[/url]). Masses were converted and remained faithful to Allaah, but in a way which Allaah permitted for them which differs from modern Islaam.

Richard

PS.

Also just a side note, I don't think angels were described as sons of God in the bible, except maybe fallen angels.

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD" Sons of God=angels

[atheism101]

Polytheism is not monotheism, but certain descriptions of monotheism can look like polytheism, as mentioned above (e.g. Solomon making images). Hence, it is quite possible that polytheism came from a misunderstanding of monotheism.

It is also possible that a giant dug holes and filled them with water to create lakes (Paul Bunyan). However, without the appropriate evidence, this alternative is simply not viable.

This is actually quite false when we consider what the similarities were. Why is it that in ancient civilisations from (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsacred-destinations(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/canada/peterborough-petroglyphs.htm"]America[/url] to (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Solar_deity#Solar_barge"]Egypt[/url] and elsewhere, there is the consistent symbolism of the sun riding in a boat (or later a chariot)? When looked at, no boat feature can be seen. So where did this symbolism come from?
In the Quran we read (and similar in the Bible):

The Quran came AFTER, not before.

So therefore,
This is false: remember that Islaam before Muhammad (God rest his soul) allowed images of angles and people, music, drinking wine in moderation, and also using the term "sons of Allaah" (see (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=737969&view=findpost&p=1254273"]this post[/url]). Masses were converted and remained faithful to Allaah, but in a way which Allaah permitted for them which differs from modern Islaam.

Ok, I don't know how to get this point across. You cannot present this alternative just as I cannot present the alternative of Paul Bunyan, given that the evidence simply does not agree.