53 replies to this topic

[Younes]

By the way sensationalistic does not exist as word in th English language.

sen·sation·al·istic adj.

http://www.thefreedi...ensationalistic

[Ron Shirt]

1. Reply to your other post, we believe in the stoning of adultery - both for the women and the men. You speak as if we are going to shy away from it? This has been the best ever method to reduce the crime of adultery in history. The mere fact that you hate this punishment itself is an enough proof that you would not dare commit this sin if this punishment was in place. And besides, this law exists both in the old testament and new testament

2. If you think your inspired, show us your proof.. what miracle have you got? The answer would always be - none. It could also be that you are possessed? God challenges you in the Qur`aan to produce a chapter like it if you are in doubt of its author and also if you can find any contradictions...why dont you defeat that challenge? - you would destroy the entire Muslim population this way. But you would definitely fail even if you gathered the whole of mankind.

3. Yes he was Arab, but he rejected nationalism - as i said in the previous post which you seemed to have not read? And if you studied history, you would know that at his time there were two main empires - Roman and Persians [who were fire worshippers]. So who told you that the Prophet Muhammad was worried that christianity would take over the world, what about the Persians?

4. Theres a difference between Christianity and a Christian. If a christian is in charge, that does not mean christianity is in charge. David cameron is a christian, but is england ruled by christianity? No. Because Christianity is a secular religion, it cannot by its nature rule a country. Parts of it can by applied, but ultimately it would still be manmade law. When it tried to rule, it caused oppression and people had to rise against it. But the foolishness of the people who rose up is that they replaced a man made system with another man made system.

And hence, and the answer to the initial question of the thread, there would always be oppression and chaos on earth as long as man is made to rule by his own weak and limited understandings, wisdom, judgements and so on.

True peace and harmony would always come about when we all submit to Gods law [i.e. the shariah], just like the rest of the universe submit to Gods law [laws of nature] and work in harmony.


This is my last post on this thread so dont expect any replies. No point debating if people are going to make stuff up and try and attack Islaam - and they talk about being civilised?

1. No, Of course I would not dare to commit the 'sin' of crossing the street in the wrong place if I knew for certain that I would be stoned for it (to death).
What right do you have to intrude upon personal human activities? Morals are a personal matter, are they not? There's nothing to stop you from giving the right guidance is there? You call adultery a crime, and this says a great deal. Many people would call it a sin, and there is a diferrence, is there not?
2.Show me the proof of the miracle that Muhammad (pbuh) manifested please. There have been many prophets and so called saints, especially many many years ago, they were seen as leaders of their time and it was quite common for those who felt inspired enough to speak out. Perhaps nowadays you would like to stop them.
3.The Persians may well have also been a factor. But the Christian 'Empire' was certainly to be observed as a rapidly growing force in those days. You obviously haven't really understood what I meant by Muhammad's identity and the way he would have seen his situation in the world at that point in history.
4. You're simply trying to twist what you originally said now. David Cameron has nothing to do with it.

Regards,

ron

[Ron Shirt]

sen·sation·al·istic adj.

http://www.thefreedi...ensationalistic

An extremely perverse version of an English dictionary - and a very so called modern interpretation of the word. Sic. In your case.

[Ron Shirt]

An extremely perverse version of an English dictionary - and a very so called modern interpretation of the word. Sic. In your case.

PS - Do you like egotistical confrontations?

[Ron Shirt]

A very sensationalistic post, excactly what I would expect from a sentimental person like you. It's obvious your emotions are clouding your reason. That's why you so conveniently mentioned stoning females when in fact both males and females can be stoned. But it's excactly what you would expect from somebody such as yourself.

You think that women are the same as men? I think you are a madman. I certainly wouldn't be able to stone either, but ....

[atheism101]

It's disappointing to see that people still believe in stoning.

[Ron Shirt]

Shocking, I would say. And why is it that the many more moerate Muslims who must be on thei site, have nothing to say about it!
These extremists live in airy fairy land anyway. The point is that punishment for this sort of crime would be virtually unenforcable. Adultery might be discovered fairly easily in some tribal village but you can imagine the number of state snoopers and morality police which would be required in a large city.
These Shariah supporters seem to perpetually unreal world based on small communities which exist only in their fantasies.

Islam - 'The Moderate Religion'. It doesn't really look like it to me.

ron

[ParadiseLost]

These Shariah supporters seem to perpetually unreal world based on small communities which exist only in their fantasies.

Adultery

Firstly the quran is not the only scripture that speaks against adultery as most scriptures see the importance of the family unit.

The bible:

One of the commandments is ‘do not commit adultery’
"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbour--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Leviticus 20:10.
For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges (Job 31:11)
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:28)

Buddhism:
Four things befall the heedless man who lies down with the wife of another: a wealth of demerit; a lack of good sleep; third, censure; fourth, hell. (Dhammaparda 309). Also the 3^rd precept of Buddhism requires a person to abstain from sexual misconduct.

Relaxed laws on adultery has made it seem acceptable in some societies. People accept that in general it is wrong but people don’t deserve a punishment. It is no wonder that it has become acceptable particularly in societies where women are nothing more than a commodity for strip clubs, advertisements and nothing more than a sexual object.

Now moving onto the quran

Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). (17:32)
So Islam tells us not to commit adultery because it is shameful and evil but it also opens the road to more evil. Adultery leads the way for deception and injustices - If we look at the consequences of adultery which are very real we can see the wisdom behind this verse.

1. Allowing desires to control oneself: A true believer in God does not allow ones desires to bring him to evil and when a person does an act like this it is done in ignorance as the Prophet pbuh said, "An adulterer, at the time he is committing illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer (Sahih Bukhari Book 69 No. 484). And nowadays many people consider the number of people they have been with as something to show off as if it were a competition which is really ignorant.

2. While there are still consequences outside marriage for this act with regards to hurting other people there is no doubt that for married people it can cause huge problems. When a married spouse commits adultery he/she is as it says in the quran opening the road to other evils because in order to commit adultery one will end up lying and deceiving their spouse especially if the adulterous relationship has been going on for long term. And even if the guilty spouse tells his/her spouse what has been happening then that does not mean it will be easy to forgive that person. Often there are long term problems such as mistrust. A marriage unit should be based on honesty and love but once a person knows about what their spouse did, they can’t help but feel they cannot trust that person. If the innocent spouse does decide that they can no longer be in the marriage then divorce procedures can be very stressful and there is a lot of emotional pain involved – depression, anxiety, confusion and neglect. The innocent person may think that it was his/her fault and wonder why he/she was not enough for the person. The situation is even worse if children are involved especially if it leads to custody battles etc. So it is clear that adultery is not something that is just about the two people involved it can have very real and damaging effects on other people.

3. The people who did commit the act may also feel guilt which can begin to destroy them. They may feel they have failed and lost their way. Adultery especially if long term can lead to a person changing his/her behaviour by constantly lying. Also not many adulterous relationships end in happiness particularly if one or both of them are married. So in the end someone will be hurt.

4. Committing adultery with a stranger can put a person in a dangerous situation and could lead to rape.

5. If an adulterous relationship leads to pregnancy more problems arise. Firstly the woman may decide to have an abortion because she knows there are no chances in the relationship working/the father may want nothing to do with the baby/she is not ready. As the quran said adultery leads the way for more evil and abortion is certainly a sin in Islam. Regardless of whether the woman is ready or not abortion is not the way out. In some countries where the law on abortion is more relaxed women are using abortion as a form of contraception.

6. If the woman does decide to have the baby many countries make it difficult for single mothers to get rights. Custody battles can be a problem and forcing the father to support the baby financially can be a long procedure. However, it is very difficult for the law to force the father to be part of the child’s life even if he is forced to financially support the child.

7. Even more issues arise for a child born outside marriage if the woman did not know the father i.e. if she met him for just one night. This can make it very hard for the woman to track down the man and get any rights for the child. The child may never know who the father is. Is it really right to put a child through all of this?

8. Adulterous relationships certainly increase the chances of catching and spreading sexually transmitted diseases (stds) and HIV/AIDS. Some std facts: all statistics taken from avert.org who take their info from the world health organisation http://www.avert.org/std.htm. UK – young people aged 16-24 years most at risk of catching an std. Since 1999 the number of Chlamydia cases have doubled. US – Chlamydia is also one of the fastest growing diagnoses. In 2009 – 1.2 million people were diagnosed with Chlamydia. Women were 3 times more likely to be diagnosed with Chlamydia. Also let’s not forget that many stds show no symptoms so people may not know they even have an std and therefore figures would be higher. Chlamydia is an std that often carries no symptoms and can have very damaging effects especially for women as it can be passed from the mother to the child during childbirth. However for both men and women other problems can occur if it goes untreated such as pelvic inflammatory disease for women and epididymitis in men which both can lead to infertility.

These are just some of the consequences of adultery. They are very real consequences and many families each year are torn apart because of it. Even those who are not involved in a marriage may come to regret their decision especially if the woman ends up pregnant or the man and woman catches and std. In order to prevent this from happening Islam has put in preventive measures.

Punishment.
The way Islam sees it when you have a right (e.g sexual rights) with it also comes responsibilities (for example being faithful, providing financial support). This applies to many aspects of Islam. It is not good for society that we should focus on the right and neglect the responsibility. And if we were to stand back and allow adultery to occur then society could become very much like societies where adultery is acceptable.

Firstly in order to prevent adultery, Islam puts requirements on both men and women. They are told in the quran to lower their glances and cover certain parts of their body. Secondly there are rules regarding socialising and having a mahram present. So it is really important to understand that Islam firstly wants to prevent adultery from happening. Islam has put the stoning in place in order to deter people. Islam does not want to encourage people to commit adultery so that they will get punishment but rather Islam wants to prevent this from happening in the first place.

So as you said it is hard to enforce but that does not mean the law is no good. In order to carry out stoning it needs concrete evidence and accusing people of adultery with no concrete evidence in islam brings with it a punishment also as 4 witnesses are needed.
And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the Fasiqun (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allah). (24:4)
Verily, those who accuse chaste women, who never even think of anything touching their chastity and are good believers - are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter, and for them will be a great torment (24:23)
Suspicion is also something that Muhammad warned us against.
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Beware of suspicion (about others), as suspicion is the falsest talk, and do not spy upon each other, and do not listen to the evil talk of the people about others' affairs, and do not have enmity with one another, but be brothers. And none should ask for the hand of a girl who is already engaged to his (Muslim) brother, but one should wait till the first suitor marries her or leaves her." (Bukhari Book 62 No. 74).

So as you can see it is very difficult to implement stoning but that does not mean it would not happen where the criteria are fulfilled. For those however who get away they must be thankful as Allah has covered their sins and it is really important to repent and ask for forgiveness as Allah is the Most Forgiving. Our sins are not something which we should openly talk about but unfortunately as I said above I hear many young people talk about these things as if it is something to be proud of. Allah offers ways of people to repent and we should not abuse this.

Nowadays with technology such as webcams and mobile phones it is even harder to know what is going on behind closed doors. But we must encourage people to the right way. And even though people who commit adultery may feel no one can see them Allah knows everything:
Have you not seen that Allah knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), nor of less than that or more but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be. And afterwards on the Day of Resurrection He will inform them of what they did. Verily, Allah is the All-Knower of everything. (58:7)


So we cannot look at stoning in isolation. We must look at the bigger picture of the consequences of adultery. We must also be aware that Allah has put requirements on us so that we do not find ourselves in a situation where we would commit adultery. Therefore it is clear that Allah wants to keep us away from the punishment and the punishments are not put in place so that we may enjoy watching other people suffer. Punishments are put in place in order to prevent the crime. And as far as I know unmarried people receive 100 lashes while married people are stoned – again as long as the criteria is fulfilled regarding evidence. InshAllah others can provide more information about zina in Islam.

[Israa`eel]

Salaam sister, very well structured answer. Hope it benefits those who are sincere and those who do not ask questions only to attack without targeting the truth.


I would like to add, in the history of the Islamic state, there was less than 200 reported cases where people got stoned to death [im not sure on the number but for argument sake lets add an extra 0 - lets assume it was 2000]. And we are not talking about just one tiny piece of island and for a few years - we are talking about vast amounts of lands which covered the whole of arabian peninsular, Asia, parts of Africa and many parts of Europe - on top of that we are talking about a period of 1302 years.

So you can imagine how many billions of people we are talking about - yet still there were only [assuming] 2000 stoning cases. which is 1 stoning in how many years?

So clearly, the punishment is not in place to kill every one. As our sister said above, it is very strict conditions and each of the 4 witnesses have to see with their own eyes [no CCTV] the actual act - an each 4 have to have witness to say that they are trustworthy.

So we can see that it is a deterant. And also for those who want to self confess as the hadeeth says: whoever is punished in this life would not be punished in the next.

[Younes]

As-salamu 'alaikum

Sister Lost in Paradise wrote a good post. Islam wants to prevent adultery and stoning cannot be viewed in isolation. Is stoning heinous? Absolutely. A heineous punishment for a heinous sin/crime.

[Distinguish]

People always have misunderstandings about stoning, it’s not made to punish adultery but it’s made to punish adultery at public, bear with me, but the problem is lack of information and this matter completely makes sense when it is fully understood even for atheist as you shall now see:

First of all stoning is for married people only so let’s take a look for when stoning is applied:

First case: There must be 4 witnesses that have seen with their eyes the man in her if you know what I mean, the judge must make sure that they saw them like “pen in inkwell” and this expression is used, and if 3 saw it and the 4^th saw them only hugging naked(for example) or maybe not sure of the part of “pen in inkwell” then his/her testimony is refused and the other three if they failed to bring a fourth witness, they are all punished for Libel and defamation even though the fourth saw them hugging naked.

Second case: The sinner admits to the authorities and allows justice to take place.

Now let’s look at the conditions for the first case, if anyone ever fulfilled these conditions, then he must be committing adultery in public i.e. a car or a shop. It’s impossible for someone to fulfill the conditions if he committing adultery in like say his home. And if you spy on them to bring true evidence it’s refused like for example what if you somehow could manage to spy on them and had a video tape of couples with “pen in inkwell” part? Then the tape is refused and you are punished for doing all of that.

But what is the point of this punishment if it is almost impossible, well; everybody has the right to sin, right? If you are prevented by force from sinning, then, what is the point of life being a test? It doesn’t make sense. Well; you are completely free to sin as you wish but without violating the society’s right to have a moral lifestyle. You are free to sin but you should not incite others to do like you by committing your sins in the light. So basically, this aims to save the society from the danger of adultery that sister ParadiseLost demonstrated and everyone is free to commit it but no one should know about it.

And in the entire Muslim’s history this punishment was applied very rarely and most of them was the second case.

But what if a Muslim saw his wife committing adultery and he didn’t have witnesses but him? They are brought to court and if she denied it then he swear 4 times that he is not a liar and if he is the curse of
Allah shall be upon him. And she swear 4 times that she is not liar and if she is the wrath of Allah shall be upon her.

“And those who accuse their wives [of adultery] and have no witnesses except themselves - then the witness of one of them [shall be] four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the truthful; And the fifth [oath will be] that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars; But it will prevent punishment from her if she gives four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the liars; And the fifth [oath will be] that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he was of the truthful” [24:6-9]

[Ron Shirt]

I have had great difficulty in coming to terms with and understanding the punishment of stoning to death. I understand that it may be used for other 'crimes' as well as adultery.
Quite honestly I cannot see that adultery is actaully one of the worst or 'most heinous' of crimes in the world. For a start I believe we are not referring to monogamy. A husband may have perhaps 3 or 4 wives but this is not considered to be adulterous. Thus the situation seems unfair from the woman's point of view : a man has the choice of more than one partner while a woman does not.
And where is forgiveness in this equation? I understood that if a Muslim sins and then repents sincerely, he or she will be forigiven. Why is this not true in the case of adultery?
I tend to think, anyway, that adultery is an issue which exists between the people involved and God alone. Why should others get involved with what is essentially a personal family matter?
It has been pointed out that adultery does untold harm to society. I think that this is circumspect to say the least and even if proof were produced then I still don't believe that 'society' has the right to interfere with human feelings. As I've said, marriage should be between those involved. Also that the words love and trust are personal things, are they not?

Finally, no-one will ever convince me that stoning to death is not a barbaric punishment. Why not condone torture, disembowelment or any other disgusting infliction upon what is, after all, a fellow human being?
I think Muslims need to admit that stoning is not good in terms of PR, at the very least.

Regards,

ron

[AHMAD_73]

welcome back, Mr Ron
hope every thing is great with you

I have had great difficulty in coming to terms with and understanding the punishment of stoning to death. I understand that it may be used for other 'crimes' as well as adultery.

Quite honestly I cannot see that adultery is actually one of the worst or 'most heinous' of crimes in the world.

In Islam it's one of the worst crimes, that eventually will lead to the destruction of the main barracks of the society, the FAMILY. that will lead to un-proper raising of the children in a broke down family, which will lead to social, economical and health problems, and will lead also to more adultery and so more bad consequences. the spread of the STDs/Aids, any fair statistics tells, just like the hadeeth of the prophet (pbuh), adultery is related to fatal diseases. which will consume another financial resources to figure it out.

For a start I believe we are not referring to monogamy.

that's the dominant case in the Islamic world almost 99% are monogamy, for a fair investigator, he have to put every thing in his qualitative and quantitative position

A husband may have perhaps 3 or 4 wives but this is not considered to be adulterous. Thus the situation seems unfair from the woman's point of view : a man has the choice of more than one partner while a woman does not.

the first choice for any Moslem is one wife, Allah tells in the Quran "we have to be ultimately fair between wives", and he, Allah, follow that with "it will be ultimate difficult to be fair between wives"
the second marriage is a second heavy load, take care about another family, financially, healthcare, education, .....etc. where is the fun here?!?!
if the wife have extra suspicion/ 2nd wife phobia/..etc. Allah gave her the right to add a special condition in the marriage legal contract, the husband should not marry another wife, if he accepted then it's OK.
generally, because of work nature, the loosing of men is more than women, and normally you will find more women than men. while in some special cases like wars the losing of men will be catastrophic, for example after the I and II WW the world lost 50-60 million, most of them in Europe and most of them are young men....what suppose the Extra 40-50 million women do in this case?????
naturally, when the man marries more than one women, their won't be initiation of STDs, nor child identification problems.

And where is forgiveness in this equation? I understood that if a Muslim sins and then repents sincerely, he or she will be forgiven. Why is this not true in the case of adultery?

it's there all the time. it is the first choice of the prophet when the adulterer came to him and said "i commit zena" the prophet didn't replay him, while the man kept repeating, the prophet tried to give him another chance "it may be not zena, you may did this or that"....the man kept saying: no i commit a complete zena i did this and that", he kept asking to be completely purified by Appling the punishment.

BTW, do you know in Islam, it's almost practically impossible to prove the case of zena, unless the adulterous confession!!!

I tend to think, anyway, that adultery is an issue which exists between the people involved and God alone. Why should others get involved with what is essentially a personal family matter?

just exactly as you accept others to force you to wear the safety belt, although it's some thing between you and your care only.
sure when the families break down and a lot of bad children raised up, and or the Stds/ Aids spreads in the society that will affect you and all or your beloved ones.

It has been pointed out that adultery does untold harm to society. I think that this is circumspect to say the least and even if proof were produced then I still don't believe that 'society' has the right to interfere with human feelings. As I've said, marriage should be between those involved. Also that the words love and trust are personal things, are they not?

that's applied for every crime between two loving persons, i don't know what will be the fair person's reaction when he sees any person breaking the other's hand and head and hearing that, "it's not your business" the broken tells....although in this case really, that will not affect you unless the other case.
safety belt, safety jackets, every safety equipments any where, and dugs as well

Finally, no-one will ever convince me that stoning to death is not a barbaric punishment.

it's not barbaric but it's deterring, efficient, beneficent for the whole society. i can see owning a 10,000s of nuclear weapons is the real barbaric action on this earth, what do you think??

Why not condone torture, disembowelment or any other disgusting infliction upon what is, after all, a fellow human being?

for our fellow human, it won't matter if he died by toxic gas (2-3 minutes) or toxic shot (5-10 minutes) or stoning. BTW, as i know, once the person put to death, he will enter a psychological state where he will feel nothing about the punishments.

I'm really confused, some may feel all of compassion and mercy for his fellow human being who is having a fair punishment, he himself accepted and believed in, that punishment rate is less than rare 10s of cases all over the Islamic world 1,600,000,000 Moslem. While from fairness quantitative and qualitative and trustworthy points of view, you have to keep taking and defending our fellow human being who are unjustified killed in Iraq by the 9 tons bombs, white phosphor,…exhausted Uranium (100,000: 1000,000) and every where.
OK, no problem feel compassion for adulterers, but Do you, really, feel compassion/talk/spend time and efforts 100,000 times more for the innocent Iraqi victims?

I think Muslims need to admit that stoning is not good in terms of PR, at the very least.

Stoning is a harsh deterring punishment for a dangerous crime that may lead to the destruction of the whole society. Allah put ultimate conditions to make it as powerful, and efficient and limited as possible. it worked great even in the countries that don't apply the sharea laws it minimized the number of adulterers and the broken families and the STDs/Aids and many kinds of Cancers in the Moslem world, and so it spread out happiness and contentment for every person in the society specially children. It stopped as well the spreading of the next new versions of adultery, homosexuality, incest, children abuse,……etc. Few stoning cases eventually will save millions and millions of death/disease cases

may Allah show us the truth, and allow us to follow it

[atheism101]

What happens to dissenters that want to make changes? Say I don't agree with stoning and I try to speak out against it in an Islamic state?