14 replies to this topic

[EasternQibla]

While strolling through the tasfir of ibn Kathir, I was stunned to find this, on 2:74 ("...and indeed, there are of them (stones) which fall down for fear of Allah. ..."):

Solid Inanimate Objects possess a certain Degree of Awareness

Some claimed that the Ayat mentioned the stones being humble as a metaphor. However, Ar-Razi, Al-Qurtubi and other Imams said that there is no need for this explanation, because Allah creates this characteristic - humbleness - in stones. For instance, Allah said,

(Truly, We did offer Al-Amanah (the trust) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they declined to bear it and were afraid of it (i.e. afraid of Allah's torment)) (33:72),
(The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein, glorify Him) (17:44),
(And the stars and the trees both prostrate themselves (to Allah)) (55:6),
(Have they not observed things that Allah has created: (how) their shadows incline) (16:48),
(They both said: "We come willingly.'') (41:11),
(Had We sent down this Qur'an on a mountain) (59:21), and,
(And they will say to their skins, "Why do you testify against us'' They will say: "Allah has caused us to speak.'') (41:21).

It is recorded in the Sahih that the Prophet said,
(This (Mount Uhud) is a mount that loves us and that we love.)

Similarly, the compassion of the stump of the palm tree for the Prophet as confirmed in authentic narrations. In Sahih Muslim it is recorded that the Prophet said,
(I know a stone in Makkah that used to greet me with the Salam before I was sent. I recognize this stone now.)

He said about the Black Stone that,
(On the Day of Resurrection it will testifiy for those who kiss it.)
There are several other texts with this meaning.

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So how many Muslims actually believe that inanimate objects (e.g. a stone) have some sort of awareness?

Richard

Edited by EasternQibla, 20 February 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Perseveranze]

Everything has awareness. On the day of judgement they would testify against you, even your own skin will.

It is for now a matter of the unseen for us.

And Allah knows best.

[Younes]

All Muslims believe the words of the Qur'an. Inanimate objects do have awareness although we don't perceive nor understand it.

[Osman93]

salam alikom,

no, emperical science tells that they are just objects - they do not posses any feelings nor a spirit. Allah tells us to look at the rational explanations before rushing to conclusions, so any Muslim scientist would tell you that they have no feelings/spirit etc. However, Allah is capable of performing act that go against natural phenomenon, and if he wishes then a stone may speak or may move itself etc. this is the definition of a miracle because it does not follow the natural order. Al in all, I believe those verses are either metaphorical, miracles or only apply in the afterlife.
wasalam alikom

[EasternQibla]

However, Allah is capable of performing act that go against natural phenomenon, and if he wishes then a stone may speak or may move itself etc. this is the definition of a miracle because it does not follow the natural order. Al in all, I believe those verses are either metaphorical, miracles or only apply in the afterlife.
wasalam alikom

Now that's my way of thinkng about it. After all, in the Bible God made a donkey to speak, but donkeys do not speak any human language! But ibn Kathir seems to go beyond this, that, for example, Mount Uhud actually has feelings of itself. Symbolically, yes it can be said, meaning that the way of Muhammad's life is pleasing to God and so creation 'warms' to it, but there is no in-built 'awareness' in such things like stones or mountains.

I really am stumped with this other view.

Richard

[AHMAD_73]

salam alikom,

no, emperical science tells that they are just objects - they do not posses any feelings nor a spirit. Allah tells us to look at the rational explanations before rushing to conclusions, so any Muslim scientist would tell you that they have no feelings/spirit etc. However, Allah is capable of performing act that go against natural phenomenon, and if he wishes then a stone may speak or may move itself etc. this is the definition of a miracle because it does not follow the natural order. Al in all, I believe those verses are either metaphorical, miracles or only apply in the afterlife.
wasalam alikom

wa alykom alsalam, brother Othman

man didn't reach every knowladge and will not in this universe. as we have a limited physical power we have a limited mental/percieving power too. or someone need to tell me what is the spirit?
since we are not able to see the angles/the Satan/ the jinn, is that means there is no angles?? but there is, while we are uncabable to percieve this.
according to the arrogant 21 centuary man scince, a BEE in not a flying object!!!

Allah tells in the Quran:

022.018Y: Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.


017.044Y: The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!

they are praising Allah while we aren't cabable of realizing this.

Allah knows best.

[EasternQibla]

they are praising Allah while we aren't cabable of realizing this. Allah knows best.

But this does not mean that they are 'aware'. It could easily be symbolic. A tree, for example, 'praises' its Creator by just being a tree. It was created a tree, and it continues to be a tree. There is no awareness or 'spirit' or 'soul' in it. It is a symbolic way of speaking so that we learn from it.

The best way for us humans to praise our Creator is to be properly human, as we were created by Allaah. That means being pure in heart, never giving into anger, being gentle with all, loving and compassionate, and so on. But we are not like this: we are not as we were created.

The tree 'worships' God by just being a tree, whereas we go against our Creator by not imitating Adam in paradise, as also glimpsed in the holy men and women approved by Allaah throughout the ages. We are not properly human, unlike the tree which is properly a tree.

Why do you insist on one particular way of interpretation?

Richard

Edited by EasternQibla, 21 February 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[EasternQibla]

Wandering again just now through ibn Kathir, I found this on 6:74:

Ibrahim Advises his Father

When he said to his father: "O my father! Why do you worship that which hears not, sees not and cannot avail you in anything …

http://www.qtafsir.c...d=996&Itemid=61

You seem to be going against the words ascribed by tradition to Abraham, by saying inanimate things can hear and see. That is why I was so stunned at the start, but did not know quite how to express myself.

I really am confused here.

Richard

[AHMAD_73]

But this does not mean that they are 'aware'. It could easily be symbolic. A tree, for example, 'praises' its Creator by just being a tree. It was created a tree, and it continues to be a tree. There is no awareness or 'spirit' or 'soul' in it. It is a symbolic way of speaking so that we learn from it.

The best way for us humans to praise our Creator is to be properly human, as we were created by Allaah. That means being pure in heart, never giving into anger, being gentle with all, loving and compassionate, and so on. But we are not like this: we are not as we were created.

The tree 'worships' God by just being a tree, whereas we go against our Creator by not imitating Adam in paradise, as also glimpsed in the holy men and women approved by Allaah throughout the ages. We are not properly human, unlike the tree which is properly a tree.

Why do you insist on one particular way of interpretation?

Richard

i believe it's not so difficult for Allah to do so, and it will not make any difference for any one if Allah created such thing with such ability.

Solomon (pbuh) has talked to animals, and his stroy with an Ant is mentioned in the holy Quran. for long time people didn't realize or accept this, it doesn't mean they were right. now it's a very probable scientific issue.

brother, i have to ask you what do you believe in angels? do you believe that there are angels all around you while you can't realize that?



what if atree will not praise god, what should it be?

[AHMAD_73]

Wandering again just now through ibn Kathir, I found this on 6:74:

You seem to be going against the words ascribed by tradition to Abraham, by saying inanimate things can hear and see. That is why I was so stunned at the start, but did not know quite how to express myself.

I really am confused here.

Richard

this verse means Idols don't hear nor see ...in the way that the worshiper believe.
this verse means Idols don't hear nor see ...in the way that human do (ear, bones, nerves, mind....eye, lense,...)

[ParadiseLost]

When he said to his father: "O my father! Why do you worship that which hears not, sees not and cannot avail you in anything …

People who worship idols believe that power comes from them idols when really power comes from Allah and them idols are under Allah's command - I don't see how the above would indicate that objects are not aware of Allah though. And as Allah says in the quran (as brother Ahmad quoted above) there is not a thing but celebrates His praise

I do believe that objects do possess awareness of Allah even though we may not be able to comprehend this

[Abu Zakariyah]

Asalamalikum

Everything in the heavens and earth is in constant worship of Allah...even an atom of iron...what does worship mean? It is not limited to actions of prayer rather total submission. An atom follows the laws thatbhas been set it behaves in the way Allah commanded it to behave....we may call it laws of physics but ultimately the atom is obeying Allah

[Scotia]

So Ak47's worship Allah, nuclear weapons worship Allah?

[AHMAD_73]

So Ak47's worship allah, nuclear weapons worship allah?

do you think the problem will be with that peice of metal or the fingure that moves the trigger.
assuming the same situation on a well known aware person. if some bad guy tied down a good one and used him as a stick to punish others, is that mean he is no longer good??

the solid materials are creations of Allah. He, almighty, put it under our control, and we will be asked about that not it.

[EasternQibla]

Solomon (pbuh) has talked to animals, and his stroy with an Ant is mentioned in the holy Quran. for long time people didn't realize or accept this, it doesn't mean they were right. now it's a very probable scientific issue.

Now the above is an example of a miracle: the bible talks about a donkey talking in a human language, but it is clearly a miraculous event. Donkeys do not talk like this, ever.

Regarding inanimate things worshipping our great God, I agree with this:

Asalamalikum
Everything in the heavens and earth is in constant worship of Allah...even an atom of iron...what does worship mean? It is not limited to actions of prayer rather total submission. An atom follows the laws thatbhas been set it behaves in the way Allah commanded it to behave....we may call it laws of physics but ultimately the atom is obeying Allah

This then means we can talk of things worshipping Allaah without the need for any awareness. ("So Ak47's worship Allah, nuclear weapons worship Allah?" No, the underlying metals which Allaah created do, but the weapons themselves are our creation, not Allaah. It shows what we humans are like …)

The thing that gets me is that this awareness is ascribed to things without any divine miracle: it is natural for them. To talk of things bearing witness against us on judgement day is still different from this: judgement day is not of this world, and so it means that our good or bad deeds performed with such things will be highlighted.

But consider what this awareness is stated to be:

(from the first post)


It is recorded in the Sahih that the Prophet said,
(This (Mount Uhud) is a mount that loves us and that we love.)

Similarly, the compassion of the stump of the palm tree for the Prophet as confirmed in authentic narrations. In Sahih Muslim it is recorded that the Prophet said,
(I know a stone in Makkah that used to greet me with the Salam before I was sent. I recognize this stone now.)

The stone actually talked to Muhammad without it being a miracle of God or the work of an angel or demon. It, of itself, spoke the word Salam. The mountain feels love now, to us.

Note, it is not the Quran which states awareness, but only our interpretation of it. Some Muslims agree that there is no awareness, but others here disagree and believe in awareness.

I am trying to understand, but please help me.

Richard