15 replies to this topic

[StopS]

My wife's (Muslim) gynaecologist told her she was still taught that a Caesarean Section is to be avoided as it interferes with the plans and wishes of Allah.

I have looked at Islamic texts and have not found any evidence for either stand, where it is prohibited or allowed. Does anyone have a pointer, opinion or idea?

Thanks.

[ParadiseLost]

Regardless of religion, midwives tend to discourage having c-sections unless it is really necessary. I know that among celebrities it has become somewhat a trend to get a c-section , often referred to as being 'too posh to push'. There are women who plan to have a C section before they are due to give birth and it is not for health reasons it is because they do not want to push or feel pain. For reasons like this I can see why Islam would not encourage this however of course if the life of the mother or child is in danger it would be necessary. See the following source:

While the question the person asked here http://islamqa.info/en/ref/92831 is a bit different it addresses the issue of C - Sections. The conclusion was : To sum up: Caesarean section should not be resorted to except in cases of necessity, when natural childbirth is not possible, or it poses a danger to the mother or the child.

Hope that helped.

[chelsea89]

I've had three because of preeclampsia, lack of dilation after 72 hours of my water being broke ( my first one), my second was preeclampsia and lack of dilation after 15 hours of labor, and my third was an emergency Csection because of preeclampsia and a blood clot/abruption. I would think in cases where it's life threatening to both involved it's permissible.

[StopS]

Thank you for your candid views. It totally reflects my own opinion, but the link Lost_In_Paradise provided shows that unfortunately there are still people around today, who put more value and trust into ancient superstitions than modern medical possibilities.

Our friend is a gynecologist and we hear horror stories, where Muslim women from Africa come in with genital mutilations beyond belief - because culture dictates it. Even if 2 opinions is not representative, I think medical reasons prevail over religious.

[chelsea89]

I resent that article btw. I don't know a lot of people who choose a Csection as the easy way out. In fact it takes longer to get back on your feet, causes more long term pain, and other complications. Most people I know who've had a Csection wish they could have gone through labor or had a natural childbirth and celebs are just stupid in general.

[StopS]

Very clear statements, thank you. I would have been surprised actually if there would have been contrary opinions, but, as you say, there are amazingly strange people.

[AHMAD_73]

I think medical reasons prevail over religious.

in Islam, religious and medical/scientific/social/economical...reasons are just goes side by side, and so both will lead to the other.

i don't know why you say that!! the sisters showed you, natural laboring is recommended unless there is a predicted danger on the baby and/or the mother then any other means is ok, is that seems ok for you?

if the Moslems followed your statement, and for example, had open sex as some other sects did in the 50s, 60s, 70s then they might be suffering from the catastrofic rates of STDs/AIDS others suffering from for a weak, un-nesesary, temporary reasons.

Islam just protected us for centuaries and day after day proven to provide us more healthy, satesfactory and happy life, why to disobey it, then??

[StopS]

in Islam, religious and medical/scientific/social/economical...reasons are just goes side by side, and so both will lead to the other.

i don't know why you say that!! the sisters showed you, natural laboring is recommended unless there is a predicted danger on the baby and/or the mother then any other means is ok, is that seems ok for you?

In this case, medical reasons and religious doctrines are in conflict, not side-by-side.

Why I made that comment is to show my relief that in the real world humans are allowed to follow medical indications and not ancient superstitions. In my country, many women go to their shaman to have the bones thrown for them to show whether their god will allow for a healthy baby.

if the Moslems followed your statement, and for example, had open sex as some other sects did in the 50s, 60s, 70s then they might be suffering from the catastrofic rates of STDs/AIDS others suffering from for a weak, un-nesesary, temporary reasons.

Islam just protected us for centuaries and day after day proven to provide us more healthy, satesfactory and happy life, why to disobey it, then??

I was never in a sect, so I don't know what you mean by "open" sex. If you are talking about free and frequent sex with varying partners, then we had "open" sex in the 70's and 80's. Was there a "catastrophic rate of STD" as result of this? No, of course not. You seem to believe some propaganda.

And by the way: I lived in an Islamic country during the 70's and had, what you seem to call "open" sex. So you can see it has nothing to do with Muslims, but culture and convention.
The way I see it the people in the 70's were just as healthy as today, but led more satisfactory and happy lives. They contemplated life and did not worry so much about religions.

[AHMAD_73]

In this case, medical reasons and religious doctrines are in conflict, not side-by-side. Why I made that comment is to show my relief that in the real world humans are allowed to follow medical indications and not ancient superstitions.

a conclusion, in your head, seeks a proof. you asked, while having some thing in your mind, we answered you, some thing you don't like to hear, and so you kept what is in mind as it is.

what is the problem in " natural laboring is recommended unless there is a predected danger for the mother and/or the baby (which is diagnosted by a doctor, of course) any other means is permisible", you didn't mention your objection here??

BTW, Islam what taught the world what is the meaning of real science including medicine (some surguries were applied in the Islamic world in the 10s century the world knew about it in the 18s centurey. the books of the Moslem 11s centuary sceintists kept educated in Eurobian universities tell the 18s centuray)
in the Quran "whoever save a soul as if he saved all man kind, and whoever killed one as he killed all mankind..." that's applied for medication as well.
in the hadeeth "there is no illness but have a curement, ..... so seek medications servants of Allah"

In my country, many women go to their shaman to have the bones thrown for them to show whether their god will allow for a healthy baby .

. this is not islamic, how can we help them?

I was never in a sect, so I don't know what you mean by "open" sex. If you are talking about free and frequent sex with varying partners, then we had "open" sex in the 70's and 80's. Was there a "catastrophic rate of STD" as result of this? No, of course not. You seem to believe some propaganda.

you may need a quick visit to the WHO reports, it's so clear that fatal disease are connected to adultery (in the USA 1.5 million proven AIDS cases with anual increase rate of 150,000 cases + almost the same percentage unproven + 15 million CANCER cases with 1.5 million anual increase rate + 10s of millions of STDs+....... ), which alhamdo llelah more than rare in the Islamic societies.

And by the way: I lived in an Islamic country during the 70's and had, what you seem to call "open" sex.

then it seems you like that, do you like it for you wife/mother/daughter.. too?

So you can see it has nothing to do with Muslims, but culture and convention.

you can't generalize what is special and vise versa, adultery is one of the biggest sins in Islam and rarly to be found in Islamic countries. using percentages if we say ,roughlly, adultery before marriage is 90% in non-religious cultures, then it's 1 % in Moslem countries. and if it's 50% after marriage in non-religious cultures, then it's 0.1 % in Moslem countries. practically, it can be ignored in Islamic countries, quantitative and qualitative.

[Perseveranze]

I've had three because of preeclampsia, lack of dilation after 72 hours of my water being broke ( my first one), my second was preeclampsia and lack of dilation after 15 hours of labor, and my third was an emergency Csection because of preeclampsia and a blood clot/abruption. I would think in cases where it's life threatening to both involved it's permissible.

If there's a clear benefit and there's a necassasity like you've mentioned above, then it's permissible.

In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon His Messenger Muhammad, his folk, companions, and followers

Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

May Allah grant the sister and us health (shifa') and well-being (`afiya), and may He grant her and us all good in this life and the next. When there is an obvious benefit in having a cesarean, it is permitted. Which is chosen should be a decision made by the sister, with her husband, and expert medical opinion. One should turn to Allah in supplication, and avail oneself of the light and blessings of the prayer of seeking guidance (salat al-istikhara).

Please use the search engine at www.SunniPath.com for istikhara for details regarding it.

And Allah alone gives success.

Wassalam,

Faraz Rabbani

http://spa.qibla.com...D=5020&CATE=233

[StopS]

a conclusion, in your head, seeks a proof. you asked, while having some thing in your mind, we answered you, some thing you don't like to hear, and so you kept what is in mind as it is.

I asked, I received an answer, I said thank you. Why are you arguing?

what is the problem in " natural laboring is recommended unless there is a predected danger for the mother and/or the baby (which is diagnosted by a doctor, of course) any other means is permisible", you didn't mention your objection here??

Where did I object to this? Why are you arguing?

BTW, Islam what taught the world what is the meaning of real science including medicine (some surguries were applied in the Islamic world in the 10s century the world knew about it in the 18s centurey. the books of the Moslem 11s centuary sceintists kept educated in Eurobian universities tell the 18s centuray)
in the Quran "whoever save a soul as if he saved all man kind, and whoever killed one as he killed all mankind..." that's applied for medication as well.
in the hadeeth "there is no illness but have a curement, ..... so seek medications servants of Allah"

You are deluded. There is no such thing as "meaning of real science". The Golden Ages of Arabs were actually different waves of knowledge, where Arabs, Arabs who were Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists furthered scientific knowledge. They did not invent new things, but they made huge advancements in scientific knowledge. Please go and look up your history before making these huge claims. But you are not alone. Many Muslims are told this story and they believe it.

you may need a quick visit to the WHO reports, it's so clear that fatal disease are connected to adultery (in the USA 1.5 million proven AIDS cases with anual increase rate of 150,000 cases + almost the same percentage unproven + 15 million CANCER cases with 1.5 million anual increase rate + 10s of millions of STDs+....... ), which alhamdo llelah more than rare in the Islamic societies.

Oh boy, you need to read more. This is what the WHO says for our entire planet, the global number:
2008 Summary It is estimated that there will be over 12 million people diagnosed with cancer this year.

http://apps.who.int/...ol=76&codcch=26

Figure 1.
Estimated new cases of curable STIs among adults (1999). North Africa, Middle East: 10 million

Source: Global Prevalence and Incidence of Selected Curable Sexually Transmitted
Infections: World Health Organization, Geneva 2001, WHO/HIV_AIDS/2001.02

http://www.who.int/s...g_landscape.pdf

You need to urgently decide how to make sure what you believe is actually true.

then it seems you like that, do you like it for you wife/mother/daughter.. too?

Hahaha, my mother is a bit old, but as for sexually active women, sure, why not? How can I enjoy something myself and not allow others the same privileges? As long as somebody handles the situation responsibly and with mutual consent, why not? Is sex fun or not? Why be so cramped up about it? It is nature and natural.

you can't generalize what is special and vise versa, adultery is one of the biggest sins in Islam and rarly to be found in Islamic countries. using percentages if we say ,roughlly, adultery before marriage is 90% in non-religious cultures, then it's 1 % in Moslem countries. and if it's 50% after marriage in non-religious cultures, then it's 0.1 % in Moslem countries. practically, it can be ignored in Islamic countries, quantitative and qualitative.

Of course I can generalise. It is empirical evidence. And how many Arabs do I see on Thursdays, driving up to sit and be entertained by the Russian and Ukrainian girls? Every week-end. You are taking your religion far too serious and literal. Hardly anyone in Islamic countries does. The only place where I really had no fun was in Afghanistan.

[StopS]

If there's a clear benefit and there's a necassasity like you've mentioned above, then it's permissible.

And what if there is no clear benefit?
What if there is not a necessity?

[AHMAD_73]

I asked, I received an answer, I said thank you. Why are you arguing?
Where did I object to this? Why are you arguing?

then what does this mean? you are tring to say religion=superstation, which is not right in the Islamic case.

In this case, medical reasons and religious doctrines are in conflict, not side-by-side. Why I made that comment is to show my relief that in the real world humans are allowed to follow medical indications and not ancient superstitions

you don't even show the bad point in the Islamic point of view!!

You are deluded. There is no such thing as "meaning of real science". The Golden Ages of Arabs were actually different waves of knowledge, where Arabs, Arabs who were Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists furthered scientific knowledge. They did not invent new things, but they made huge advancements in scientific knowledge. Please go and look up your history before making these huge claims. But you are not alone. Many Muslims are told this story and they believe it.

http://en.wikipedia....non_of_Medicine, Also known as the Qanun, which means "law" in Arabic, Persian and Turkish (spelled as Kanun), the Canon of Medicine remained a medical authority up until the 18th century^{[6][dead link]} and early 19th century.^[7] It set the standards for medicine in Europe and the Islamic world, and is Avicenna's most renowned written work.

one Moslem sceintest ,Avicenna's , ibn seina, book "Qanun" that been autherized in 1025 AC, kept the standerd for medicine tell the early 19th centuray (for successive 900 years), what that means to you??

Oh boy, you need to read more. This is what the WHO says for our entire planet, the global number:
2008 Summary It is estimated that there will be over 12 million people diagnosed with cancer this year.

http://apps.who.int/...ol=76&codcch=26

first of all, the 12 millions is the rate of growth of cancer cases in the world in the year 2008. further reading in the same site you will find that the death cases due to cancer is 7.6 millions/year. while both numbers have no thing to do here, what we have to know is the distribution of such disease in the religious societies versus the non-religious ones.

http://www.cancer.or...09estcd3pdf.pdf
now 1.5 milion new cancer cases, among the 12 milions, is in the USA alone, which is considered (free sex country), which is 12.5 % , while the USA population is 300 milion among the 7000 million world population which is 4%, that means the USA have more than 3 times more than avarage in cancers.

Figure 1. Estimated new cases of curable STIs among adults (1999). North Africa, Middle East: 10 million
Source: Global Prevalence and Incidence of Selected Curable Sexually Transmitted
Infections: World Health Organization, Geneva 2001, WHO/HIV_AIDS/2001.02
http://www.who.int/s...g_landscape.pdf

again the number is for curable diseases, and have no way to compare with others, here is how to compare between numbers,

http://www.unicef.or.../statistics.php, table 4 AIDS
all population who lives with AIDS
USA 1,200,000
Egypt 11,000
a moslem country is Less than 1% of the states

women over 15 who lives with AIDS
USA 310,000
Egypt 2,400
a moslem country is Less than 0.8 % of the states

Thanks Allah "alhamdo llelah", the Moslem world have the most chaste societies, the most integrated families and so the lowest cases of the most serious diseases STD/HIV and cancers.

Hahaha, my mother is a bit old, but as for sexually active women, sure, why not? How can I enjoy something myself and not allow others the same privileges? As long as somebody handles the situation responsibly and with mutual consent, why not? Is sex fun or not? Why be so cramped up about it? It is nature and natural.

and so, a devoted atheist will be so happy and helpful for his wife while she to have such kind fo fun other partener !!!!, but the point will be about the children, will he allow them to help or no?!?!

Of course I can generalise. It is empirical evidence. And how many Arabs do I see on Thursdays, driving up to sit and be entertained by the Russian and Ukrainian girls? Every week-end. You are taking your religion far too serious and literal. Hardly anyone in Islamic countries does. The only place where I really had no fun was in Afghanistan.

am i told you, when Allah forbides adultery that means 100% of the Moslems will obey!!!
it's about percentage, man. and alhamdo llelah Islam is the most successeful religion to minimiz such percentage.

[StopS]

then what does this mean? you are tring to say religion=superstation, which is not right in the Islamic case.

Well, if you take a guy saying CS is prohibited for religious reasons it is. I am NOT saying all of Islam is superstition.

you don't even show the bad point in the Islamic point of view!!

What "bad point"? I am not criticising anything. I don't understand what the problem is.

http://en.wikipedia....non_of_Medicine, Also known as the Qanun, which means "law" in Arabic, Persian and Turkish (spelled as Kanun), the Canon of Medicine remained a medical authority up until the 18th century^{[6][dead link]} and early 19th century.^[7] It set the standards for medicine in Europe and the Islamic world, and is Avicenna's most renowned written work.

one Moslem sceintest ,Avicenna's , ibn seina, book "Qanun" that been autherized in 1025 AC, kept the standerd for medicine tell the early 19th centuray (for successive 900 years), what that means to you??

You made a claim: "Islam what taught the world what is the meaning of real science". I showed you that not all people who were responsible for the Golden Age were Muslims. The name "Golden Age of Islam" is therefore wrong. Also, if you study history you will find there was not one single Golden Age but several.

What you are doing is taking ONE example, which in itself is valid and then generalising it and saying this is true for everything, which you can't honestly do.

I also objected to your term "real science". All that happened during those times of the "Arab Golden Age" was an advancement, a huge scientific advancement. So medicine, which was based on Greek medicine, was studied and further experiments and research advanced medicine until the modern era started ~ 200 years ago.

1. Yes, there was such a thing as an "Arab Golden Age".
2. No, it was not based in Islam, even if most people involved were Muslims.
3. No, it was NOT the basis for all scientific discoveries.
4. Yes, huge developments and advancements were made in all fields of science.

first of all, the 12 millions is the rate of growth of cancer cases in the world in the year 2008. further reading in the same site you will find that the death cases due to cancer is 7.6 millions/year. while both numbers have no thing to do here, what we have to know is the distribution of such disease in the religious societies versus the non-religious ones.

http://www.cancer.or...09estcd3pdf.pdf
now 1.5 milion new cancer cases, among the 12 milions, is in the USA alone, which is considered (free sex country), which is 12.5 % , while the USA population is 300 milion among the 7000 million world population which is 4%, that means the USA have more than 3 times more than avarage in cancers.

again the number is for curable diseases, and have no way to compare with others, here is how to compare between numbers,

http://www.unicef.or.../statistics.php, table 4 AIDS
all population who lives with AIDS
USA 1,200,000
Egypt 11,000
a moslem country is Less than 1% of the states

women over 15 who lives with AIDS
USA 310,000
Egypt 2,400
a moslem country is Less than 0.8 % of the states

Thanks Allah "alhamdo llelah", the Moslem world have the most chaste societies, the most integrated families and so the lowest cases of the most serious diseases STD/HIV and cancers.

It seems you misunderstand statistics. A growth rate is (existing + increase - decrease = rate) if the rate is positive. You can't subtract death rates twice.
What you are ignoring is that cancer treatment is heavily regulated, administrated and controlled in Western countries. In other countries it is not the case.

Then you mix and match numbers from different years, take an increase to mean growth rate and throw in unsubstantiated numbers. On top of that you build a huge strawman by chucking in the remark that the US is a free sex country.

This is now getting childish. You can't have half the population with cancer after a few years. And what exactly is the definition of "free sex"? The USA is a puritanical country compared to other civilised countries.

The same goes for HIV/AIDS. PLEASE be more precise!!! You are looking at a number for Mother-to-child-transmissions.

Sorry, but your claim is totally wrong, faulty and unsubstantiated. I also told you what happens in reality. You ignore that. You think that Islam is the best of the best and try to prove this conclusion by looking for reasons to believe this.

Sorry, the realistic way is the other way around.

And IF Muslims are so chaste, why does our security have to go out every weekend to rescue our female employees from Muslims who are following them and threaten to rape them? Why do we constantly have complaints from our female employees that they are being accosted and sexually threatened by Muslims?
Why are the inmates in a German prison in Berlin 90% Muslims? No, you need to get real and stop dreaming.

and so, a devoted atheist will be so happy and helpful for his wife while she to have such kind fo fun other partener !!!!, but the point will be about the children, will he allow them to help or no?!?!

There is no such thing as a devoted atheist. You can't have a "married bachelor".
Of course children need to make their own experiences. My job is to teach them responsibility, consequences and consideration.

am i told you, when Allah forbides adultery that means 100% of the Moslems will obey!!!
it's about percentage, man. and alhamdo llelah Islam is the most successeful religion to minimiz such percentage.

Maybe 100% of Muslims obey in a dream-world, but not here in reality. Here in reality, the real world, humans are humans. Humans don't really care whether they are Christians, Jews, Muslims or Zoroaster. Muslims are just like everybody else. Look at Google Insight and what country has the most searches regarding perverted sex.

The important thing is, though, that YOU are a good person and care for your family and other people.

[Perseveranze]

And what if there is no clear benefit?
What if there is not a necessity?

Then don't do it, because you'll end up hurting/harming yourself. What's the point of doing anything if there's no benefit to it?

And looking at your post above just continuesly shows how clueless you are about Islam and Islamic history especially.

[StopS]

Then don't do it, because you'll end up hurting/harming yourself. What's the point of doing anything if there's no benefit to it?

I am talking about Caesarean Section. Are you?

Please try to read more carefully. I wrote no CLEAR benefit. To clarify that on occasion an operation is favoured to reduce risks. I wrote CLEAR to stop any stupid replies like the one I got.

And looking at your post above just continuesly shows how clueless you are about Islam and Islamic history especially.

How long have you been insulting me now? You know by now that I know much more about Islam than you do. But you still insist on embarrassing yourself with comments like this one, where you assert something without demonstrating what or where or how etc. I have been telling you for months that if I make a mistake I will admit it and apologise. Yet you continue making unfounded claims and insulting me wherever you can. Why? Only because I don't believe what you believe? Make a valid point or shut up.