24 replies to this topic

[Padre5]

Judaism and Christianity underwent great reform movements, and have changed over time. I have read some articles on "Reform Islam" and wonder what people here think of the movement. My Islamic grandchildren and their friends are split on the subject, but they all seem to agree that reform might be better than "bending the rules" and lying, especially in non-Islamic cultures.

[kellygreen]

Red Sox ??!! AHHHHH !! You're killing me !!!

[freedslave]

I am not familiar with the Reform Islam movement. Where is this movement from?

As for reformation, it depends.

If you're talking about changing the religous texts to fit the whims of people, then no.
If you're talking about how this knowledge in our religous texts is applied in everyday life, be it social customs and practices, justice, politics or critical thinking among Muslims, I would say it is not reform that is needed, but instead a better understanding and stronger will to implement the Islamic way of life among people, is needed.

[SaracenSoldier]

Once human beings "reform" Religion it is no longer the original pure message that Allah revealed. That's why we Muslims say that the bible of today is not the original message from Allah because it has been corrupted by men. Or "reformed" as you called it.

So called reform is an extremely serious matter for us because what matters to us is the original message of Allah. Anyone trying to reform Islam is either a deviant or an enemy of Islam. Also Islam will never be lost like the previous religions because it is protected by Allah. There is also a hadith where The Prophet(saw) says that Allah will send a revivor every century to revive the religion. Also there is a hadith that a group of Muslims will ALWAYS follow the right path untill the day of judgement.

So anyone trying to change the final message of Allah will just fail. Because the original pure version will always be there protected by Allah and protcted by a group who fight to defend it. And it will prevail over any and all attempts to put it out.

And this is something the Christians and Jews need to deeply think about. You know mere men changed or reformed your religion and that means it is no longer the pure religion that Moses(as) or Jesus(as) brought down. Then how can you today believe that it is the true religion that Allah wants you to follow? When you know men over the centuries have changed what the great Prophets Moses and Jesus were sent with! Peace be upon them both.

[dot]

Unlike all other religions, Islam is the only religion that does not and will not need a reform, ever.
The reason is simply because, being the last divine message to man, it was meant to suit all people, in all times, until the end of time. This is also why it is the only message guaranteed by God Himself against any falsifications.

15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ

Islam is a highly flexible religion. What we need is scholars who would show us how to apply Islamic teachings on today's life. One scholar who comes to mind in that regard is Dr. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi.

[Israa`eel]

I agree with the above two comments, jzk for excellent responses.

Islam has zero tolerance for having a 'reform'. This Religion does not belong to human beings [Muslims or non-Muslims], it belongs to God Al-Mighty. Any reform is a change in the Message of God and no one has the right to change something which does not belong to them....

And to make it more clear, it is considered an act of apostasy to change the religion of God. Hence we are required not to speak about God and His Message without knowledge just in case we end up changing it or speaking falsehood about God. If one changes Islaam and then follows it, he is not following Islaam anymore; he has changed his religion.

[Ron Shirt]

Salaam,
the point of possible reform which is being missed, I think, is not a matter of changing any Quranic texts but rather of looking at the emphasis of importance that is put upon them by humans.

regards,

ron

[ParadiseLost]

reform of Islam is not needed ever but what definitely is needed is some sort of reform in the community of Muslims so that they learn to go back to the original teachings of the prophet pbuh and the quran.

[Perseveranze]

I agree with you.

We should reform Islam back to the days of the rightoues salaaf.

[Padre5]

I'm actually aware of Dr. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, who is now very active in your country. His website (IslamOnline.org) is bookmaked in my browser. I also understand the basic concept of Islam that the Qu'ran was and is the final, perfect word of God. However, I have also become aware of what Wikipedia calls "Liberal Movements within Islam." Here in America, there have been several TV shows featuring Muslims who want to modernize or "reform" Islam. I have read much about the topic on the Internet, too. As one who is skeptical about the value of ALL religious guidance, I feel that those who are willing to question the conventional wisdom of the religion in which they were raised will be better people and happier in the long run. I especially believe that is true for Fundamentalist Christians here in the States, who have way too much influence on American society and our political system! So, I hope you will be open to people, especially young people, who question all that they believe and have been taught. The world at large, and perhaps most notably the Internet, offers so much knowledge.

[ParadiseLost]

Wikipedia calls "Liberal Movements within Islam."

Liberal, extremists, fundamentalists, strict, modern, progressive Muslims etc are all words used to describe us and have unfortunately came into the vocabulary of Muslims themselves especially after 9/11 where Muslims feel they need to distance themselves from what people view as 'extremists'. However Prophet Muhammad never called himself these names and never taught us to do so - He was a Muslim and nothing else and that is what we should strive to be also.

[Padre5]

Liberal, extremists, fundamentalists, strict, modern, progressive Muslims etc are all words used to describe us and have unfortunately came into the vocabulary of Muslims themselves especially after 9/11 where Muslims feel they need to distance themselves from what people view as 'extremists'. However Prophet Muhammad never called himself these names and never taught us to do so - He was a Muslim and nothing else and that is what we should strive to be also.

I have seen and heard this idea many times. With all due respect, it seems to me it is NOT really reflective of Islam. First, of course, there is the split between the two branches of Islam, and the terrible violence that is then provoked. Then there are all the different sects, as well as the "labels" you quoted above. The Islamic tent is indeed very large!
From reading the posts here, and from discussions I have had with Muslim friends and family, I know it is often very tough for young Muslims to find their way in the Modern World. For so many, relying on faith and trying to be devout seems very hard. Why would reform and liberalization be so horrible if it preserved the basic tenants of the Faith? Instead of declaring that innovative thinkers are Apostates, let them be heard and stay in the religion. If they found another religion, as Martin Luther did, make peace with that religion.
This is just a thought from one who looks at all religion from the "outside" and is not intended as an attack on Islam, but I'd love to hear some responses besides the "stock" answer that Islam was delivered in perfect form 1500 years ago. If so many Muslims have real real trouble keeping the faith, why not let it evolve?

[ParadiseLost]

I don't the problem we have is with the quran or what the prophet pbuh taught us - the problem is how it is implemented or rather how it is not implemented in todays world. That is the kind of reform I personally would prefer so that Islam can be implemented properly the way the prophet taught us. Also Muhammad never taught us to be divided which is what can be seen today and it shows that there needs to be more unity among the Islamic community.

[StopS]

What is Islam? What is a Muslim? Does the Koran define this?
The Koran specifies that Jinns and humans are created to worship. But within this requirement, the Koran does not say: pray at these times and in this manner.
Humans did that and have created the worship rituals. Humans have defined what a Muslim is supposed to be.
Humans tried to find substantiation in pseudo-science 30 years ago. This back-fired when the internet could find the truth about this within seconds.
Humans have made some attempts at interpreting the Koran as a benign and merciful religion. An excellent attempt - which has been repeatedly undermined by fundamentalists.
Can anyone find a single definition for a Muslim?
I know that many people take great comfort and values from their religion. They read the Koran and take the hadiths as providing guidance. Both together form the basis for billions of Muslims. Yet fundamentalists again kill the peaceful attempts of Muslims trying to lead a normal and happy life.
My conclusion: yes, just like the Catholic Church had a Martin Luther in Wittenberg reforming the sick parts of that religion, Islam needs reform to stay alive in the 21st century to provide an identity for the modern Muslim.

How are Muslims seen today? As misogynistic men wearing long beards and dresses with multiple wives and concubines. Is that the reality of a modern Muslim? No, of course not. But the few leading this life, form the stereotype for outsiders so I think the question is not only a good question but a necessary one.

[ParadiseLost]

The quran defines what a Muslim is in hundreds of verses. The quran also clearly defines a disbeliever. StopS I am sure it was you who said you read the quran and if you have then it is worrying that you escaped hundreds of verses that deal with this..

About prayer: Perform As-salat (Iqamat-as-salat) from mid-day till the darkness of the night (i.e. the Zuhr, 'Asr, Maghrib and 'Isha' prayers), and recite the Qur'an in the early dawn (i.e. the morning prayer). Verily, the recitation of the Qur'an in the early dawn is ever witnessed (attended by the angels in charge of mankind of the day and the night) . (17:78)
So bear with patience (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) all that they say, and glorify the Praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting (i.e. the fajr, Zuhr, and 'Asr prayers) . (5:39)
There are other verses but besides, Muhammad clearly outlined these specifics for us and can be found in the hadith.

Also the description you give of what you think people perceive a Muslim is ...its just quite funny to mention men wearing long beards..does a beard prevent one from being modern now lol. And what is modern anyway?

[freedslave]

Instead of declaring that innovative thinkers are Apostates, let them be heard and stay in the religion.

Just who are these innovative thinkers, and what do they propose?

If so many Muslims have real real trouble keeping the faith, why not let it evolve?

Why do Muslims have trouble keeping the faith?

Even if one faces this problem, the proper response would be to reflect on what can be done to protect his or her faith, rather that proposing to make it evolve.

As for people who keep changing the religion and forming sects, we can live in peace and avoid conflicts with them but that does not mean we do not speak out against falsehood. It is Islamic doctrine to speak out the truth, and to call people to it.

[Ron Shirt]

Just who are these innovative thinkers, and what do they propose?



Why do Muslims have trouble keeping the faith?

Even if one faces this problem, the proper response would be to reflect on what can be done to protect his or her faith, rather that proposing to make it evolve.

As for people who keep changing the religion and forming sects, we can live in peace and avoid conflicts with them but that does not mean we do not speak out against falsehood. It is Islamic doctrine to speak out the truth, and to call people to it.

Hi, Well, at risk of speaking for Padre5 here, I would say that the world is not the same place that is was when the Qu'ran was written. The idea and implementation of 'Human Rights' - for example has been introduced, increasingly on a global scale. the UN has been set up and obviously although it still doesn't function in the way it could do, it has been a start. The notion of a 'global reality' was not really in evidence in 600AD.

Personally I think Muslims have trouble 'keeping the faith' because they are unsure of exactly what the faith is. It is no secret that there are contradictions - sorry, difficulties in the Qu'ran. Plus the fact that those who shout the loudest/have the most charisma/are the most influencial/etc are the most listened to and have a greater power.

Evolution surely would mean to arrive at a situation of mutual understanding with the world as it actually is at this moment in time. Democracies cater for minorities but I wonder if Islam is only prepared to tolerate those minorities with whom they feel some affiliation?

Salaam,

ron

[EasternQibla]

And this is something the Christians and Jews need to deeply think about. You know mere men changed or reformed your religion and that means it is no longer the pure religion that Moses(as) or Jesus(as) brought down. Then how can you today believe that it is the true religion that Allah wants you to follow? When you know men over the centuries have changed what the great Prophets Moses and Jesus were sent with! Peace be upon them both.

Just to clarify: Eastern Christianity has never had any 'reformation', and despite being officially split into three groups, we can still look at each other and know we have the same life (officially, we cannot share the Eucharist, but unofficially we do: love is greater than bureaucracy!).

Richard

[StopS]

The quran defines what a Muslim is in hundreds of verses. The quran also clearly defines a disbeliever. StopS I am sure it was you who said you read the quran and if you have then it is worrying that you escaped hundreds of verses that deal with this..

Also the description you give of what you think people perceive a Muslim is ...its just quite funny to mention men wearing long beards..does a beard prevent one from being modern now lol. And what is modern anyway?

Well, if you can show me a single sentence in the Koran saying that Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and at what times and by putting their hands over their belly, then getting on their knees and taking the "7 bones" position I will immediately convert. But you and I know the Koran does not specify how many times and when to pray. Humans specified this in the sunnah.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. The Koran does NOT clearly define what a Muslim is. There are vague and ambiguous sentences all specifying different things and most are telling followers what NOT to do, threatening them with punishment and non-believers with severe torture.

I DO agree with you that you can derive a definition through personal interpretation, where anyone can take the pillars and the rituals and good practices to mean: follow these and you are a Muslim.

But my point is that most of the rituals and habits are taken from the sunnah and culture. So banning pork, pop-music and pictures of people from a house is sheer superstition. It's part of being a Muslim but is not the definition of a Muslim. Am I being more clear now?
So the bottom line is that the fundamentalist, back-to-the-roots Islam is dying out and is being replaced anyway. By practical rules and regulations. Where 16-year-old Muslim girls in an Islamic country walk around the shopping centre in the abaya, showing off their stiletto heels as soon as a group of boys walk the other way and then giggle hysterically and hammer away at their phones - just like any adolescent teen does in any country. THAT is reality.

Oh yes, absolutely does a beard prevent a man from being modern. Definition: Of or relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past.
Can a man adopt a different look? No. Can a man change with the times? No. Can a man vary his looks? No. The ruling is a beard at least a fist long. Which is why a man wearing a dress and a long beard has become a stereotype.
Are all modern Muslims following these ancient traditions? No. My boss, a devout Muslim, comes to work in a suit. He is shaved. He wears after-shave. He has no slaves and no concubines. He has one wife and one daughter, who goes to an international school and is not veiled up. She is now doing her driver's license and is taking karate lessons. That is reality today. That is modern.

[freedslave]

...I would say that the world is not the same place that is was when the Qu'ran was written.

Yes. that's true. But that does not mean the lessons that can be obtained from the Quran can't be applied today.

The idea and implementation of 'Human Rights' - for example has been introduced, increasingly on a global scale.

I admire the idea of human rights, for it speaks against war crimes, and against the idea of discrimination for any group of people. But Islam, has its own set of human rights, and the Prophet introduced this in the society at a time when human rights were unheard of.

The Prophet Muhammad (sallalahu alayhi wassalam) said: Truly your blood, your property, and your honor are inviolable. (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #1739)

The Prophet Muhammad (sallalahu alayhi wassalam) also said: O people! Your God is one and your forefather (Adam) is one. An Arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab, and a red (i.e. white tinged with red) person is not better than a black person and a black person is not better than a red person, except in piety.

In this saying, it is estbalished that all men are equal, and deserve equal rights, and there is no room for racism in Islam.

It is this moral code that Muslims seek to follow. The human rights of today are a Western construct, thought of and originated from Westerners. You can't expect this to be applied globally, when each society and region subscribes to their own version of what is right and wrong. I hope others can respect our laws and our way of life, just as we respect yours.

Muslims do not seek to change non-Muslim laws. if a Muslim attempts to do this in a non-Muslim land, I would ask this brother or sister to truly reflect on his or her actions, and on the Quran and Sunnah, for Allah (swt) does not say we go to foreign lands and dictate or force them to follow Shariah law.

The whole world cannot live under one set of laws, or a similar set of laws. It has never done so in history. History has shown that imperialism has always been rejected. Humanity just has too many shades, and different ideologies are subscribed to. You just have to make do with the differences. I would say, as I have done earlier, that this even holds true for those Muslims, who may wish to change the West radically.

As for the human rights of today, it is packaged under globalisation, when it really is westernisation and imperialism.

the UN has been set up and obviously although it still doesn't function in the way it could do, it has been a start.

The UN is a joke.

They do have some good programmes worldwide, but when push comes to shove, the UN were unable to hold the US to the fire, for their war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are dozens of conflicts worldwide, and the UN can't do anything about upholding justice in these regions as well.

The UN is also another Western construct. It gave recognition to the founding of Israel in 1947, when none of the Arab states at the time agreed or even had a say on the matter. This led to the loss of lives and rights for Palestinian Arabs. And to this day, the UN can't do anything about the Israeli atrocities because of the special veto power it has given to the US.

Globalisation, the UN, human rights, are just western constructs. Muslims have our own code, and it is up to us to set our own benchmarks, according to our beliefs, to make our societies better, and not to resort to these foreign imperialistic ideas or forces.

I would suggest you read this link to get a clearer perspective: http://www.religious...org/hassan2.htm

It is no secret that there are contradictions - sorry, difficulties in the Qu'ran.

I am of firm belief that there are no such difficulties. I welcome you or others to bring them up in another thread.

Plus the fact that those who shout the loudest/have the most charisma/are the most influencial/etc are the most listened to and have a greater power.

This is true for all societies. It's one of the reasons why President Obama (the most charismatic and influential) was elected.
What's your point?

Evolution surely would mean to arrive at a situation of mutual understanding with the world as it actually is at this moment in time.

Coming to a mutual understanding just requires coming to an common agreement and a tolerance of each other's differences. Again, you can't expect everyone to evolve to the same thing, or have common political or cultural ideas. Sorry, that's just wishful thinking.

...I wonder if Islam is only prepared to tolerate those minorities with whom they feel some affiliation?

Not true. All non-Muslims can live with Muslims.

It was common for the four rightly guided caliphs, after the Prophet's time, to include polytheists and people of faiths other than Judaism and Christianity, in their societies. And they were also given protection by Muslims.

It is true that there is a special place for Jews and Christians, but polytheists and people of other faiths are also to be included in Islamic society and to be treated fairly.

Prophet Muhammad (sallalahu alayhi wassalam) said, “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)

You can read this link, showing two examples of hadiths where the Prophet showed no problem, and in fact showed kindness to polytheists.
http://en.islamstory...on-muslims.html