16 replies to this topic

[Jsmith]

Aslamo Alikum,

Dear All,

Yes, the free will does exist, for example, everyday when we wake up, we have to wash our face. Now, it is up to us that we wash our face or leave it as it is. Or it is up to us that we brush our teeth or just leave them as it is.

If we will wash our face, our skin will not be filthy and diseased. But if we will not wash our face or brush our teeth, then we will be dirty and soon a time will come, our skin and teeth will become diseased.

In the similar way, if we will do good deeds, we will be spiritually healthy, but if we will do bad deeds or keep doing them, then our spirit will become diseased.

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkblue]Like those who are washing their face and brushing their teeth will end up fresh and healthy and those who are not washing and brushing will end up as diseased, people doing good deeds will end up in Heaven and people doing bad deeds will end up in hell.[/color]

All this conclude that free will does exist.

But at the same time, our [DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen][SIZE=3]FREE WILL[/SIZE][/color] compared to [DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen][SIZE=6]GOD’s WILL[/SIZE][/color] is so tiny that it looks like it does not exist at all.

For example, see ant, it is so small that compared to our size, its size looks like it does not exist at all. Let’s compare size of bacteria with our size.

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkblue]Just light a lamp and then compare its light with the Sun’s light, then although, your lamp’s light exist, but compared to the light of sun, it does not exist at all.[/color]

Just compare yourself with this universe, it is so huge that your existence does not matter at all.

In the same way, GOD’s WILL is so great that if we start comparing our FREE WILL with GOD’s WILL, then it looks as our free will does not exist at all.

In short, compared to GOD’s WILL, our free will simply does not exist.

[SIZE=4]Reference:[/SIZE]

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen]This Quran is not except a reminder to the worlds
For whoever wills among you to take a right course.
And you do not will except that God wills - Lord of the worlds.[/color]

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkred]Quran 81:27-29[/color]

[Jsmith]

This forum should allow editing the posts by their authors, because now all the post tags have broken. So I am posting it again for readbility.

===================================================

Aslamo Alikum,

Dear All,

Yes, the free will does exist, for example, everyday when we wake up, we have to wash our face. Now, it is up to us that we wash our face or leave it as it is. Or it is up to us that we brush our teeth or just leave them as it is.

If we will wash our face, our skin will not be filthy and diseased. But if we will not wash our face or brush our teeth, then we will be dirty and soon a time will come, our skin and teeth will become diseased.

In the similar way, if we will do good deeds, we will be spiritually healthy, but if we will do bad deeds or keep doing them, then our spirit will become diseased.

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkblue]Like those who are washing their face and brushing their teeth will end up fresh and healthy and those who are not washing and brushing will end up as diseased, people doing good deeds will end up in Heaven and people doing bad deeds will end up in hell.[/color]

All this conclude that free will does exist.

But at the same time, our [DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen][size=4]FREE WILL[/size][/color] compared to [DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen][size=6]GOD’s WILL[/size][/color] is so tiny that it looks like it does not exist at all.

For example, see ant, it is so small that compared to our size, its size looks like it does not exist at all. Let’s compare size of bacteria with our size.

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkblue]Just light a lamp and then compare its light with the Sun’s light, then although, your lamp’s light exist, but compared to the light of sun, it does not exist at all.[/color]

Just compare yourself with this universe, it is so huge that your existence does not matter at all.

In the same way, GOD’s WILL is so great that if we start comparing our FREE WILL with GOD’s WILL, then it looks as our free will does not exist at all.

In short, compared to GOD’s WILL, our free will simply does not exist.

[size=4]Reference:[/size]

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen]This Quran is not except a reminder to the worlds
For whoever wills among you to take a right course.
And you do not will except that God wills - Lord of the worlds.[/color]

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkred]Quran 81:27-29[/color]

[Jsmith]

Aslamo Alikum,

Dear All,

Yes, the free will does exist, for example, everyday when we wake up, we have to wash our face. Now, it is up to us that we wash our face or leave it as it is. Or it is up to us that we brush our teeth or just leave them as it is.

If we will wash our face, our skin will not be filthy and diseased. But if we will not wash our face or brush our teeth, then we will be dirty and soon a time will come, our skin and teeth will become diseased.

In the similar way, if we will do good deeds, we will be spiritually healthy, but if we will do bad deeds or keep doing them, then our spirit will become diseased.

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkblue]Like those who are washing their face and brushing their teeth will end up fresh and healthy and those who are not washing and brushing will end up as diseased, people doing good deeds will end up in Heaven and people doing bad deeds will end up in hell.[/color]

All this conclude that free will does exist.

But at the same time, our [DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen][size=4]FREE WILL[/size][/color] compared to [DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen][size=6]GOD’s WILL[/size][/color] is so tiny that it looks like it does not exist at all.

For example, see ant, it is so small that compared to our size, its size looks like it does not exist at all. Let’s compare size of bacteria with our size.

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkblue]Just light a lamp and then compare its light with the Sun’s light, then although, your lamp’s light exist, but compared to the light of sun, it does not exist at all.[/color]

Just compare yourself with this universe, it is so huge that your existence does not matter at all.

In the same way, GOD’s WILL is so great that if we start comparing our FREE WILL with GOD’s WILL, then it looks as our free will does not exist at all.

In short, compared to GOD’s WILL, our free will simply does not exist.

[size=4]Reference:[/size]

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkgreen]This Quran is not except a reminder to the worlds
For whoever wills among you to take a right course.
And you do not will except that God wills - Lord of the worlds.[/color]

[DO NOT CHANGE COLORdarkred]Quran 81:27-29[/color]

[StopS]

There's also a logical approach:

If an all-knowing / omniscient god knows you will lift your left arm, can you change your mind and lift the right one?

Yes, then that god is not all-knowing.
No, then you don't have free will.

You can't have both.
There are several logic objections for claims of almighty, all-just, all-merciful, etc etc

[Ron Shirt]

All this concludes is that free teeth do not exist at all.
Simply : you do not know what God knows.
You cannot have both healthy teeth and unhealthy teeth!

ron

[StopS]

All this concludes is that free teeth do not exist at all.

Is there any significance to this sentence?

Simply : you do not know what God knows.

That's why the word "if" was created
Also, there's a philosophical branch, formulating that gods were created by humans and have human traits and thoughts as metamorphisms. This would mean it is possible to know some of the thoughts.

You cannot have both healthy teeth and unhealthy teeth!

Why not? I do. I think every animal with teeth has.

[Saracen21stC]

There's also a logical approach:

If an all-knowing / omniscient god knows you will lift your left arm, can you change your mind and lift the right one?

Yes, then that god is not all-knowing.
No, then you don't have free will.

You can't have both.
There are several logic objections for claims of almighty, all-just, all-merciful, etc etc

Having knowledge is not same as forcing sb.

[Ron Shirt]

Is there any significance to this sentence?

Yes: it is philosophical food for thought.

That's why the word "if" was created
Also, there's a philosophical branch, formulating that gods were created by humans and have human traits and thoughts as metamorphisms. This would mean it is possible to know some of the thoughts.

A branch? A branch of what?


Why not? I do. I think every animal with teeth has.

But not all at the same time!

thanks,

ron

[StopS]

Having knowledge is not same as forcing sb.

If you think of the consequences it is.

1. The creator of the Universe wanted to be worshipped, created a planet with humans to worship "him". Only 1:5 actually does. If that creator Muslims call god is omnicient, that god knows that only 1 in 5 creations will do as expected and will be sent to hell. So because I live in the 21st century and know about the Koran and the god described therein I am forced to worship a god if I don't want to go to hell.

2. If I can't lift my right arm it is forcibly restricted to make that god omniscient.

[Ron Shirt]

If you think of the consequences it is.

1. The creator of the Universe wanted to be worshipped, created a planet with humans to worship "him". Only 1:5 actually does. If that creator Muslims call god is omnicient, that god knows that only 1 in 5 creations will do as expected and will be sent to hell. So because I live in the 21st century and know about the Koran and the god described therein I am forced to worship a god if I don't want to go to hell.

2. If I can't lift my right arm it is forcibly restricted to make that god omniscient.

But I don't think that God (if indeed He exists as according to your criteria) exists as according to your idea of logic either.
Personally, I wouldn't say that He 'demands' to be worshipped.It could be said to be desirable but thats it.
What people forget constantly is that this, so called, absolutely Holy Word, came through the human hand. This is not disputable, no matter what they might say.

regards,

ron

[StopS]

Personally, I wouldn't say that He 'demands' to be worshipped.It could be said to be desirable but thats it.

If I take the Koran as source

51:56: “And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.”

would seem to indicate that it is a command according to my interpretation.

7:179: "Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: ...."

tells me that many of the creations, well, ~80% will not turn out as desired and will require eternal torture.

[Saracen21stC]

If you think of the consequences it is.

I don't think so.

Suppose, If person 'A' has a brother Person 'B', and Person 'A' has sent HIS BROTHER B to a shop to buy some fruits ,not Alcoholic drinks (that is the shop has both alcohol and fruits). But person 'A' was very aware that the brother will buy alcoholic drinks rather than the fruits. And the brother (person B) did buy alcoholic drinks with that money.

So, here, are we supposed to say that the person B (the brother) was forced by person A in order to make person A knowledgeable of that act?

I don't think it works that way.

1. The creator of the Universe wanted to be worshipped, created a planet with humans to worship "him". Only 1:5 actually does. If that creator Muslims call god is omnicient, that god knows that only 1 in 5 creations will do as expected and will be sent to hell. So because I live in the 21st century and know about the Koran and the god described therein I am forced to worship a god if I don't want to go to hell.

I could not understand this, especially this part, that god knows that only 1 in 5 creations will do as expected and will be sent to hell. Sent to Hell?

And I can't see how Human beings being asked to worship is enforced due to God being 'Omniscient'

2. If I can't lift my right arm it is forcibly restricted to make that god omniscient.

I don't think it would work this way as I mentioned earlier.

And yes! Complete FREEwill is certainly not there. The problem is with that 'free' just before 'will' of that word. But choice is still there.

Edited by Saracen21stC, 15 March 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[StopS]

I don't think so.

Suppose, If person 'A' has a brother Person 'B', and Person 'A' has sent HIS BROTHER B to a shop to buy some fruits ,not Alcoholic drinks (that is the shop has both alcohol and fruits). But person 'A' was very aware that the brother will buy alcoholic drinks rather than the fruits. And the brother (person B) did buy alcoholic drinks with that money.

So, here, are we supposed to say that the person B (the brother) was forced by person A in order to make person A knowledgeable of that act?

I don't think it works that way.

I don't see this example as being relevant. If I modify it, I can work with it.
A is omniscient.

A sends brother B to a shop to buy fruit.
B buys alcohol and gets tortured forever.

A sends brother C to a shop to buy fruit.
C buys alcohol and gets tortured forever.

A sends brother D to a shop to buy fruit.
D buys alcohol and gets tortured forever.

A sends brother E to a shop to buy fruit.
E buys alcohol and gets tortured forever.

A sends brother F to a shop to buy fruit.
F buys fruit and gets to go to heaven.

A's brother G is told this and A sends him to buy fruit.
What do you think he will buy?
Is he forced to buy fruit?

I could not understand this, especially this part, that god knows that only 1 in 5 creations will do as expected and will be sent to hell. Sent to Hell?

B, C, D, E were sent to buy fruit, failed and were sent to hell. Only after 4 people went to hell, did F do what he was told. This means that 5 people were told to buy fruit and 4 did not, only 1 did.
The same happens with the Muslim god. This god creates 5 people and 4 don't worship this god. Only 1 does.
Because roughly 20% of the world population are Muslims and worship the Muslim god. The other 80% worship Hindu, Zoroaster or whatever god or no god at all.

Is it more clear now? I know, I have been told before that my brain is too fast and I skip some steps. Sorry about that.

And Humans 'being forced to worship' is not that because God is 'Omniscient'

I agree with you totally. This shows that the creator god does not create humans worshipping him - even though he should know this.

And yes! Complete FREEwill is certainly not there. The problem is with that 'free' just before 'will' of that word. But choice is still there.

What choice with what consequences?
If the Mafia guys tell you to pay money or they will smash your legs, do you have free will to say no?

[Saracen21stC]

After reading couple of posts under this thread , I could not really understand what we are arguing for (/ against). I think some misunderstanding is going on.

Edited by Saracen21stC, 16 March 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[StopS]

I think some misunderstanding is going on.

Well, the way I understand it, this is a discussion about whether free will exists and whether it can be or is granted by an omniscient god.

[Saracen21stC]

Well, the way I understand it, this is a discussion about whether free will exists and whether it can be or is granted by an omniscient god.

As i have said earlier, in Islam the is no complete FREEwill. The problem is with that 'free' just before 'will' of that word. But choice is still there to select between good and evil activities depending on the context. And it does not affect the 'omniscience' attribute of God as purpose of God was not to give complete 'free'will to human beings.

Edited by Saracen21stC, 16 March 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[StopS]

As i have said earlier, in Islam the is no complete FREEwill. The problem is with that 'free' just before 'will' of that word. But choice is still there to select between good and evil activities depending on the context. And it does not affect the 'omniscience' attribute of God as purpose of God was not to give complete 'free'will to human beings.

I understand your dilemma. And I also understand your unwillingness to make a rational or logical decision. But you cannot say: there is no free will but there is the ability to choose.

This playing with words. Like saying I don't drink alcohol - but I finish a bottle of wine every day. It don't work that way.

But if you say there is no complete free will, what are you NOT able to decide on? Are these actions or just thoughts?