22 replies to this topic

[Luckee]

Why do so many Muslims tell me that Allah is not part of existance and therefor his size is beyond our knowing? Why do they denie His existance, yet say "Allah u Akbar"?

Doesn't that mean that He is the Greatest in all of existance? Doesn't that contain everything in creation, everything in existance, ALL that is? Why do people have to make it more complicated then it is. What point am I not getting across here, in the part where Muslims say "Allah u Akbar."
Because I totally agree with that. As soon as you judge Allah, you seperate ALL that is into two parts and it is no longer ALL that is. All that is ONE. One particle, so infinite and great in its power that it can be everywhere at the same time. Making up entire existance, not just this universe of which we only perceive 0,0001 precent and which itself, even in a full perception of it, is just 0,00001 10^-infinite percent of all of existance.

Some people say "this universe is everything there is! There is nothing beyond this universe! We believe not in the unseen! So Allah exists not! Allah is not everything! Because this universe is everything! UNIVERSE U AKBAR! Praise be to this universe, the greatest in All of existance!"
And then they call them selves muslim? ...I really don't understand how this fundamental issue here is so misunderstood in Islam. When people do not even like to talk about the size of Allah and what it really means, they may fear the question when I ask it, which is an indication that their hearts have deviated from the truth.

So do you fear the question? Is Allah not All that is? Everything. If not, how can he be the greatest and yet not contain everything? Do you also believe that this universe is the greatest that there is. Do you also praise this universe as your lord? If so, why are you muslim?

These questions just boggle my mind.

[abdullahfath]

I like this question.

You have to understand that what you are asking forces the Muslim to border on dangerous ground by possibly giving attributes to Allah ( swt ) that are not already proscribed to him. All that exists exists because Allah ( swt ) has created it and allows it to exist and only through Allah ( swt ) does it exist and without him none of it would exist but Allah ( swt ) is not the same as his creation and to say as such is to turn the creator into the creation. If I create a clay jar it can be a great jar and I would be a creator but I would not be my creation, one logically speaking cannot be creator and creation at the same time. Or as they say where I am from, you can't have your cake and eat it too!

[AHMAD_73]

الله أكبر الله أكبر الله أكبر

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ {11}

042.011Y: ............(Allah): there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).
non of the qualities any one have in mind is applied to god, simply, because nothing is like him, Subhanah-o wa ta'ala. we can't tell about god but what he, almighty, told about himself.

although man believe that men differ in mind, imagination and percieving capabilities, i wonder why man can't accept the fact that his mind have limits. we can't perceive or understand the god "Zat ذات" which is self or physics. we can't imagine some of his, almighty creations,for example what is the meaning of time before creating the universe (the big bang) or even before creating the earth, who caused the big bang, what was the state of such mass before bigbang, where the universe is expanding into, who originate the original mass. what is the life secret, what is the spirit, in the one's own body, and where it lives? The logic laws, that man deduced by observing the god creation are not applicable on the god almighty. Allah-o Akbar

during man march to knowladge on this earth, he pathed many steps. when ever he reachs a step he believes he reached a great step, few years later he reachs another step and looks to the one step before as a premative step made by lower knowladge people,........what will be the next generation will tell about our knowladge..........while even when we reach 10^infinity of the knowladge we can have, we still have limit.

[Luckee]

Oh, this is very interesting!

So it basicly comes down to the polarity of creation and creator that we have created our minds.

The creator and creation are concepts within existance. Allah is not subject to your concept of Him. The concepts of creator / creation are subject to Him! Allah is not contained by your concept of creator/creation. These concepts are contained within Him! He is the Greatest of All that exist. He is ALL that exists!

When I say, ALL that exists I mean this.

AAAAAAAAALLLLL OF IT!!!!! EVERYTHING!!!!! SO MUCH THAT YOUR MIND EXPLODES AND YOUR BODY EVAPORATES JUST BY THINKING ABOUT THINKING ABOUT IT!!!!!

Not just the concept of "creator". Allah u akbar! Allah is not just one small idea in your mind that is the polar opposite of another small tiny insignificant idea that you call creation.... How hard can it be to understand the what "everything" means? ALL of Existance!

[Ron Shirt]

Oh, this is very interesting!

So it basicly comes down to the polarity of creation and creator that we have created our minds.

The creator and creation are concepts within existance. Allah is not subject to your concept of Him. The concepts of creator / creation are subject to Him! Allah is not contained by your concept of creator/creation. These concepts are contained within Him! He is the Greatest of All that exist. He is ALL that exists!

When I say, ALL that exists I mean this.

AAAAAAAAALLLLL OF IT!!!!! EVERYTHING!!!!! SO MUCH THAT YOUR MIND EXPLODES AND YOUR BODY EVAPORATES JUST BY THINKING ABOUT THINKING ABOUT IT!!!!!

Not just the concept of "creator". Allah u akbar! Allah is not just one small idea in your mind that is the polar opposite of another small tiny insignificant idea that you call creation.... How hard can it be to understand the what "everything" means? ALL of Existance!

Hi,
I have had various discussions on this forum in the past regarding the conceptualisation of God. I can only say that what I have found is that both Ibn-el Arabi (known as the pole of knowledge or Qutb of the age) and Jallaludun Rumi (known as the pole of Love and author of what came to be known as the 'Persian Koran') have both proved invaluable aids to study of this question.
I know that 'sect-related' discussions are not allowed here so I will say no more, but it does seem to me that a scientific/philosophic approach can be most helpful, due to the logical capabilities and understanding of our minds.
We are all groping in various degrees of darkness anyway, it appears to me!

Regards,

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt, 03 June 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[iMusliMariam]

To Luckee:
Maybe the "so many Muslims" who told you that equal to only two Muslims who are either ignorant or weak in Imaan.

Every Muslim knows that Allah is the Greatest of all. That's why we say 'Allahu Akbar' every day and night.

Only a small-minded oaf like you would be unable to comprehend the true meaning of 'Allah is the Most Great'.

[Saracen21stC]

Why do so many Muslims tell me that Allah is not part of existance and therefor his size is beyond our knowing? Why do they denie His existance, yet say "Allah u Akbar"?

Doesn't that mean that He is the Greatest in all of existance? Doesn't that contain everything in creation, everything in existance, ALL that is? Why do people have to make it more complicated then it is. What point am I not getting across here, in the part where Muslims say "Allah u Akbar."
Because I totally agree with that. As soon as you judge Allah, you seperate ALL that is into two parts and it is no longer ALL that is. All that is ONE. One particle, so infinite and great in its power that it can be everywhere at the same time. Making up entire existance, not just this universe of which we only perceive 0,0001 precent and which itself, even in a full perception of it, is just 0,00001 10^-infinite percent of all of existance.

Some people say "this universe is everything there is! There is nothing beyond this universe! We believe not in the unseen! So Allah exists not! Allah is not everything! Because this universe is everything! UNIVERSE U AKBAR! Praise be to this universe, the greatest in All of existance!"
And then they call them selves muslim? ...I really don't understand how this fundamental issue here is so misunderstood in Islam. When people do not even like to talk about the size of Allah and what it really means, they may fear the question when I ask it, which is an indication that their hearts have deviated from the truth.

So do you fear the question? Is Allah not All that is? Everything. If not, how can he be the greatest and yet not contain everything? Do you also believe that this universe is the greatest that there is. Do you also praise this universe as your lord? If so, why are you muslim?

These questions just boggle my mind.

I think you misunderstood what Muslims really meant. Allah is not part of His creation but Allah has power over each and everything. Separation simply means He is not part of it in Divinity. Remember this! So, we are surely not praising the Universe, rather the Almighty.

If Allah is everything then idol worshiping is also worshiping part of Allah, which is surely wrong in Islam. Then testing God is forbidden, so if we carry out experiments in this universe- we are testing part of God!!! This is wrong. Another disturbing thing is that garbage/sewage/ excrement also become part of God!!!!

So, I firmly believe that position of Islam is acceptable and not disrespectful towards our Creator.

[Luckee]

I think you misunderstood what Muslims really meant. Allah is not part of His creation but Allah has power over each and everything. Separation simply means He is not part of it in Divinity. Remember this! So, we are surely not praising the Universe, rather the Almighty.

Forgive me, but I simply do not comprehend. Could go deeper into that specific idea that "Allah is not part of His creation?"

So, you say that Allah is non-existant? That non-existance governs all of Existance?

That is the ultimate paradox in my eyes.

If you say that Allah exists, how come he exists and does not exist at the same time? This confuses me. Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding it all

Edited by Luckee, 10 June 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Ron Shirt]

Forgive me, but I simply do not comprehend. Could go deeper into that specific idea that "Allah is not part of His creation?"

So, you say that Allah is non-existant? That non-existance governs all of Existance?

That is the ultimate paradox in my eyes.

If you say that Allah exists, how come he exists and does not exist at the same time? This confuses me. Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding it all

I for one cannot comprehend that 'Allah is not part of his creation', Surely if it His creation then it must be a part of Him.
A rather crude analogy would be one of a persons excrement perhaps?

Regards,

ron

[Saracen21stC]

Forgive me, but I simply do not comprehend. Could go deeper into that specific idea that "Allah is not part of His creation?"

So, you say that Allah is non-existant? That non-existance governs all of Existance?

That is the ultimate paradox in my eyes.

If you say that Allah exists, how come he exists and does not exist at the same time? This confuses me. Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding it all

No, it's not about existence. Allah is separate from His creation in Divinity.

[Ron Shirt]

No, it's not about existence. Allah is separate from His creation in Divinity.

So Allah exists (whatever that may mean) and His creation exists *(whatever that may mean) - but the two are seperate. Can you define your terms?

Regards,

ron

[Luckee]

No, it's not about existence. Allah is separate from His creation in Divinity.

So you're saying Allah exists as seperate from His creation in Divinity? OR NOT?!

I don't care about the labels and conditions you place upon Allah. Wether they are good or bad labels. First we must come to a conclusion about His Existance, then, and ONLY THEN, can we talk about His Greatness.

Edited by Luckee, 10 June 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Luckee]

To Luckee:
Maybe the "so many Muslims" who told you that equal to only two Muslims who are either ignorant or weak in Imaan.

Every Muslim knows that Allah is the Greatest of all. That's why we say 'Allahu Akbar' every day and night.

Only a small-minded oaf like you would be unable to comprehend the true meaning of 'Allah is the Most Great'.

I must agree with you. This is true.

So, you agree with the notion that Allah EXISTS as the Greatest of ALL?

Must he in that case then not contain everything? ALL THAT IS!

Edited by Luckee, 10 June 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[Saracen21stC]

So you're saying Allah exists as seperate from His creation in Divinity? OR NOT?!

I don't care about the labels and conditions you place upon Allah. Wether they are good or bad labels. First we must come to a conclusion about His Existance, then, and ONLY THEN, can we talk about His Greatness.

We certainly believe that Allah exists. He is the Ever-Existent. But He does not literally exist/dwell in His creation. Allah is Divine, the creation is not Divine and hence not worthy of worshiping. If Allah is present everywhere in everything, then everything becomes Divine including me and you, Idol, garbage, urine, stool, etc etc. This (view) is Shirk (and extremely disrespectful towards our Creator) according to Islam. But Allah's power exists over everything,everywhere that is each and everything is within the power of the Almighty. That's why He is the Greatest.

[Luckee]

Saracen, I can't quote you on my phone, but this reply is towards you.

Thank you very much for being so clear this time.

So you're saying that Allah is not the creator of ALL that Exists, right? I take this conclusion, because you said Allah creates, He Exists, he is not part of his creation, seperated from it.

So, I'm still confused and desire to go even deeper into this specific subject about inclusion and exclusion.

[Saracen21stC]

Saracen, I can't quote you on my phone, but this reply is towards you.

Thank you very much for being so clear this time.

So you're saying that Allah is not the creator of ALL that Exists, right? I take this conclusion, because you said Allah creates, He Exists, he is not part of his creation, seperated from it.

So, I'm still confused and desire to go even deeper into this specific subject about inclusion and exclusion.

Surely, Allah can not be the creator of Allah!!!! Except this, Allah is certainly the creator of ALL that exists. That's why we are saying His creation. Creator and creation is not same thing. There must be always a difference/separation between Creator and creation (and hence two different words). If Allah literally exists everywhere in everything then everything is Divine, Permissible, and worthy of worshiping which is surely not the case.

[AhmedTi]

As similar story was happened during the life of our prophet (peace be upon him)

Imam Ahmad recorded from Ubayy bin Ka`b that the idolaters said to the Prophet, "O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.'' So Allah revealed

• Say: "He is Allah") (2. "One".) (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten".) (4. "And there is non comparable to Him.'')

Al-Ikhlâs is sûrah (chapter) 112 of the Qur'ân


(As-Samad) is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.

(And there is none comparable to Him.) This means that there is none similar to Him, none equal to Him and there is nothing at all like Him.'' Ibn Abi Hatim also recorded it and At-Tirmidhi mentioned it as a Mursal narration. Then At-Tirmidhi said, "And this is the most correct.''

The Existence of Allah

There are two things that can led you be convinced that Allah is exist. The first thing is to agree that that every action has a doer; nothing can be an exception to that rule. If you understand then you may start contemplating in the entire universe and this way can reach you to the truth of Allah's existence. Such as

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.³ Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up.

Examples of that are countless and evident

The second way for you to discover the existence of Allah is by studding Qur’an the miracle of our prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) since the Qur’an challenges people. For example if you got a change to read the Qur’an and stand on this Ayat in sûrah Yunus (chapter) 92.

90. And We took the Children of israel across the sea, and Fir`awn with his hosts followed them in oppression and enmity, till when drowning overtook him, he (Fira`wn) said: "I believe that none has the right to be worshipped but He in Whom the Children of israel believe, and I am one of the Muslims.'') (91. Now (you believe) while you refused to believe before and you were one of the mischief-makers. ) (92. So this day We shall deliver your (dead) body (out from the sea) that you may be a sign to those who come after you! And verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Ayat.)

You will see that these verse depict that Fira`wn had been drown and his corpse was save by Allah and left as a sign for to those who come after him. In 20 century the French Scientist Maurice Bucaille embraced Islam after examining the corpse and found that indeed Fira`wn had been drown.

Lastly, I hope the above is responsive and I wish to hear later on that you are a Believer with Islamic religion

[Luckee]

Saracen, you say Allah is the creator of ALL that exists and you say that Allah exists. So is Allah his own creator? How can that even be possible?

[Luckee]

Dear, puregoodman.

Thank you very much for this quote from the prophet. It helps me confirm some of the assumptions that I have already made within myself.


Say: "He is Allah") (2. "One".) (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten".) (4. "And there is non comparable to Him.'')

Allah is One. The Greatest in ALL of existance. He begets not, nor was He begotten. So there is nothing seperated from Allah. Allah is ALL of existance. Allah is everything and within Allah, there is expansion, but Allah expands not. There is none comparable to Allah, because there is nothing outside of Allah to even be compared with him. This brings me to the conclusion, again, that Allah is ALL that exists.

I'm not a muslim, I'm just currently researching on Islam, for the surrender of the self.

[Saracen21stC]

@ Luckee, I think you should read my comments again.