24 replies to this topic

[KenPruitt]

First, a little disclaimer. I am in fact a homosexual, and I am in fact a Muslim (a very un-orthodox Muslim, but a Muslim none the less).

There are two major arguments that have been put forth against homosexuality that not only are incredibly silly, but factually incorrect. Let's start with the first one.

1: "Homosexuality is unnatural"

If this is the case, why is it practiced not only by humans but by many other animals in the animal kingdom, most notably Zebras? Moral/Religious opponents of Homosexuality seem to have it in their heads that humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, when this is not true. So if it is not only practiced by humans but by many animals in the animal kingdom, how can you possibly make the case that Homosexuality is unnatural?

2. "No one is born a homosexual"

This is factually incorrect. I don't personally believe that science has all of the answers, but if science hasn't proven anything else, it has proven conclusively that homosexuality is the result of hormones that the mother's body pumps into the child during pregnancy. I would post the links explaining all of this, but I'm a new member and as such I'm not allowed to post links. So the entire notion of homosexuality being a personal choice has been proven to be factually incorrect.

I recommend everyone watch the documentary, "For the Bible Tells Me So." You can find it on Netflix.

[Padre5]

WELCOME! I believe that any Forum is better and stronger with more diversity I have brought the perspective of an unbeliever here. I haven't converted anybody (or tried to) but I have, at least, established that good Muslims can talk to an atheist. I now count several as friends. By the way I went to school in Tennessee, and have a lovely and wonderful lesbian daughter!

[Orange_Cat]

I believe that all sexual activity outside of reproduction in the context of a marriage is sinful, but have failed to live up to these beliefs, so I am in no position to judge homosexuals. However I understand that male homosexuals especially enjoy friendship with the opposite sex but are sometimes repulsed by female sex organs so my guess is that in the past, people with these proclivites would have married women and had very limited sex back in purer ages when sex was more firmly associated with reproduction in the public mind and there was no libertine talk of people having "sex lives", etc.

[Padre5]

We had a wonderful Orange Maine Coon Cat named Max, but he ran away.

[SaracenSoldier]

First, a little disclaimer. I am in fact a homosexual, and I am in fact a Muslim (a very un-orthodox Muslim, but a Muslim none the less).

If you say that you are a Muslim then surely you believe in the Quran right? Well, the Quran has told us the story of Prophet Lut(as). Listen to it:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

[KenPruitt]

Some things you just don't chose, and homosexuality is one of those things.

[ParadiseLost]

Some things you just don't chose, and homosexuality is one of those things.

Everybody is tested by desires - however if you really believe in Allah then you don't choose your desires over Him. I really suggest you read the story of Prophet Lot as Brother Saracen Soldier advised. If you really believe in Allah then you wouldn't have a illegal relations with a man. You need to get your priorities straight - do you want to satisfy your desires in this short life knowing that you are giving up the next life? It is a serious thing to think about if you really believe in Allah.

[Benedict]

KenPruitt, I am sorry but science can try and explain away all it wants with the hormone stuff. I must agree with ParadiseLost on this one. You will be tempted and tested. One must decide if they will serve God or the world. In Christianity homosexuality is condemned. The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.


2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,¹⁴¹ tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."¹⁴² They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
<a name="2359" style="color: rgb(148, 128, 92); ">2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

[KenPruitt]

"Everybody is tested by desires - however if you really believe in Allah then you don't choose your desires over Him."

But this assumes that homosexuality is actually a choice, i.e., that you're choosing to have desires for the same sex instead of the opposite sex, when this is not the case. I can't choose to have desires for the opposite sex anymore than a heterosexual male could choose to have desires for another man. Suppose a homosexual male tried to seduce a heterosexual male. What do you think would happen? The heterosexual male would be disgusted and decline the seduction, even if it means making his decline forcefully known, i.e., striking the other man who attempted to seduce him. The same would stand true if a heterosexual male tried to seduce a lesbian. Even IF the lesbian wanted to have desires for the opposite sex, she can't. That's the whole point. The biology isn't there.

[abdullahfath]

The last report to come out of anyone even attempting the gay gene theory was in 2010. I suspect that you are misinformed or deliberately making false claims. If there is irrefutable evidence of a so called homosexual gene or proof of it being something tied to birth that is not still in testing mode then I will gladly evaluate that as facts are facts but I will need to see evidence. See I have had this debate before on another forum, when I was Christian. So, I know where this will lead.

As for the being Muslim part I strongly doubt it but that is between you and Allah (swt) and I am trying to refrain from negativity as this is Ramadan.

[ParadiseLost]

"Everybody is tested by desires - however if you really believe in Allah then you don't choose your desires over Him."

But this assumes that homosexuality is actually a choice, i.e., that you're choosing to have desires for the same sex instead of the opposite sex, when this is not the case. I can't choose to have desires for the opposite sex anymore than a heterosexual male could choose to have desires for another man.

You do have a choice in how you react to your desires. You have the ability to control your desires but if you are going to act like you are special and that you are unable to keep control of these desires then you are making it more difficult for yourself. Nobody can force you to have relations with a man - you are the one who makes that choice. You cannot blame God or anyone else when you take that choice to act on your desires. You completely have the choice to also refuse to have relations with a man. I am sure there are men and women in the world who feel more attracted to the same sex but because for their love of God they never acted on these desires. These people will be rewarded because they struggled against their desires for the sake of Allah. If you do not struggle against your desires for the sake of Allah then the end result won't be good. The quran is clear on the stance of same sex relations - they are forbidden.

Allah orders us to take the whole quran as a whole. Yes there may be parts that are difficult for us but we can't just pick and choose the verses we like. If you believe in the word of Allah then surely you believe in the fact that He knows what is best for us. He is the One who created you and yet you question what He is telling you is forbidden? It is a sign of arrogance when humans think that they know themselves better than their Creator knows them.

May Allah guide you to the truth.

[ala'adin]

It is like sister lost said, If you have these desires as you have said you do then you need to find a way to repress or a change in your lifestyle where by you stop acting on them. In Islam the sin is on the person once the action has been committed. So protect yourself from a grave sin and seek the pleasure of your Lord. Remember also that this world is finite made of day which are made of hours and only Allah knows when your last hour will be, so worship him as he should be worshiped, obey him as he should be obeyed and return not to Allah in state fresh from sin, escpecially not one as grave as this.

I pray that Allah azawajal guides you and puts the conviction in your heart that you are capable to supress these ill actions

[KenPruitt]

"You have the ability to control your desires but if you are going to act like you are special and that you are unable to keep control of these desires then you are making it more difficult for yourself. Nobody can force you to have relations with a man - you are the one who makes that choice. You cannot blame God or anyone else when you take that choice to act on your desires."

I really hate not being able to post links, so I'll just have to settle with saying that this notion that homosexuality is a choice has been thoroughly, demonstrably, discredited. The only people who believe in this nonsense are the people who reject science as an innovation against God (Allah, depending on your faith) and this is one of the dumbest positions out there. It has been scientifically proven, beyond all doubts, that a homosexual CAN NOT feel sexual desire for the opposite sex. Of this there is no scientific dispute. The faith-based movements (Pray Away The Gay, etc) that supposedly "cure" gays have been shown to be nothing but a scam which takes advantage of people's self-hate/insecurities. But let's say for argument's sake that I'm wrong and homosexuality is completely a choice. How does that explain the multitude of animals that practice homosexuality? Zebras come to mind instantly on this front. If Homosexuality is a human choice, and thus an unnatural act, then how can animals deviate from the "natural" instinctive act of reproducing with the opposite sex? None of this makes any sense at all.

"The last report to come out of anyone even attempting the gay gene theory was in 2010. I suspect that you are misinformed or deliberately making false claims. If there is irrefutable evidence of a so called homosexual gene or proof of it being something tied to birth that is not still in testing mode then I will gladly evaluate that as facts are facts but I will need to see evidence."

No one said anything about a Gay Gene (that doesn't make any sense either, at least not to me). Homosexuality is the result of a hormonal imbalance. A good documentary to watch on this is called, "For the Bible Tells me So." You can find it on Netflix. They get into the science a lot better than I can.

[ala'adin]

Firstly

"It has been scientifically proven, beyond all doubts, that a homosexual CAN NOT feel sexual desire for the opposite sex. Of this there is no scientific dispute."

There is no way that your statement above can be proven to be true, no true scientist will ever make a statment like that they would be ridiculed because there is no way to substantiate that.

Secondly, Just because some animals practice does not make it right or "natural" in the same way that there are some animals that kill their own babies... I am sure you will agree that is not natural for a human to do such a thing. We are not following animals we were created differently with a different purpose, to Worship Allah alone and adhere to the laws that he has set upon us.

Even if you are correct and it has come about through a hormonal imbalance, that is your test! You are prohibited from acting upon this desire, there are no two ways about it. Allah swt has said in the Quran he does not burden a sould more then it can withstand, so you have the ability within yourself to repress it, its up to you to step up and stay away from anything that increases that desire in you and refrain in any matter from practising it.

[ParadiseLost]

For the second time I said you have the choice to act on you desires. No one forces you to get into a relation with a man. It is your decision.

Also comparing humans to animals?? Really? The quran is a book for humans not for animals so I think you might want to rethink what you are saying. As brother ala'adin said we have a completely different purpose than animals do.

Homosexuality is transgressing the limits that Allah set upon us - thats quite clear from the quran - so you either believe in the word of God or you don't. You either believe God knows us better than we know ourselves or you don't.

[KenPruitt]

"Homosexuality is transgressing the limits that Allah set upon us - thats quite clear from the quran - so you either believe in the word of God or you don't. You either believe God knows us better than we know ourselves or you don't."

First of all, no one is trying to argue that Homosexuality isn't forbidden in Islam by Allah. Of course it is. You're preaching to the choir here. The point was to destroy two fallacious arguments against it. The first that homosexuality is a choice, the second that it's not natural.

"Also comparing humans to animals?? Really?"

I did this to show you that Homosexuality isn't "unnatural". It wasn't meant for anything else.

"No one forces you to get into a relation with a man."

Biology forces you. That's the whole point. It's either get into a relationship with the same sex, or don't get into a relationship at all. Considering humans are social animals (humans are an animal, I'm sorry to break to you), this clearly isn't a choice. Who can go their entire lives without having a single relationship? It's impossible, and anyone who said that they have is lying. This notion that homosexuality is a choice has been, I shall say for the hundredth time, utterly discredited. This cartoon sums it up nicely.

[ParadiseLost]

It's either get into a relationship with the same sex, or don't get into a relationship at all.

And you know which one is better in the sight of Allah

[Younes]

"Who can go their entire lives without having a single relationship? It's impossible, and anyone who said that they have is lying."

It is possible. There are people who don't get into a single relationship. Easy? No. Impossible? No.

[Happyforever]

KinPruitt,

It is normal for any human to try to throw his mistakes upon anything else. We know and you know that this is not the way. It's hard, yes it's hard to sustain our desires I will not say natural desires but controlled desires because we are not species, we are not animals, we are Adam sons with mind.

The best way is to face our weakness whatever it seems big and horrible in oour eyes but yet we can defeat it if we only start trying to defeat it. Yes for people the desire to the opposite sex is strong but controllable it is not impossible, if you try to liken yours with this then it is controllable too and not impossible. I will tell you a way that will help you insha Allah but promise to do:

Forget your past and ask Allah's forgiveness.
Try to avoid dealing with men (as women asked to be by lowering your gaze, no checking hands,,,)
Marry an attractive good woman who seems to fill your time.

Always remember these Ayats:

قَالَ هَٰؤُلَاءِ بَنَاتِي إِن كُنتُمْ فَاعِلِينَ (71) (الحجر)

"He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing. (71)"
So this is the cure which is to marry.

وَاللَّذَانِ يَأْتِيَانِهَا مِنْكُمْ فَآذُوهُمَا فَإِنْ تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُوا عَنْهُمَا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا (16) إِنَّمَا ٱلتَّوْبَةُ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسُّوۤءَ بِجَهَالَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُوْلَـٰئِكَ يَتُوبُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً

And those (two) who commit it among you, hurt them and if they repent and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allâh is Ever All-Forgiving Most Merciful. (16) Verily repentance on Allah for those who do evil in ignorance and then repent soon it is they whom Allâh will forgive and Allâh is Ever All¬Knower, All¬Wise. (17

Do repent and be sure that Allah will support you.

[liza27]

I am gay too. I though Allah is all loving? Am I going to be cast into the lake of fire like those Christian nuts?