142 replies to this topic

[danieldemol]

What is a pluralistic society?

I'm only a layman, so I couldn't give you a proper definition, but in my own lay terms I would say a society where peoples of different faiths are free to express their opinions about which religion they wish to follow and why, and are free to follow their religions excepting such aspects as require them to treat members of other faiths with violence and/or discrimination, or otherwise represent extreme deviations from secular law as decided by a government elected by all members of that society.

So for example such a society would allow a person to follow Islam in the sense of being truthful, chaste, wearing hijab, praying 5 times a day etc, but if such a person followed one of those brands which require non-muslims to be killed if they don't accept Islam (this is not an attack on you personally since I assume good faith and don't consider a person a terrorist until they prove otherwise) they would not be allowed to undertake such violence or discrimination. Obviously though if a person wanted to practise peadophilia in Australia (let's talk about Australia since that's what I'm most familiar with) they would not be permitted to since this represents an extreme deviation from secular law here. Plural society is probably more of a topic on it's own so it would probably not be relevant to dicuss it extensively in this thread.

After these are finished he will conquer the whole world. He will give no one a choice other than to follow him.

I don't really have time right now to listen to an hour long presentation with loads of information non-relevant to my question (such as where the dajjal appears from etc) and which is un-necessarily doubled in length by saying everything in Arabic first.

Coming back to my question, supposing when Jesus goes around invading everyone, is he going to invade Australia even though Muslims are allowed to practise (what seem to me to be) the most essential features of Islam here, and then kill any non-Muslim who is happy to let Muslims follow their religion, but still don't wish to follow His religion or not?

Edited by danieldemol, 24 June 2012 - 12:36 AM.

[SaracenSoldier]

but if such a person followed one of those brands which require non-muslims to be killed if they don't accept Islam

Thanks for the response and just as a clarification, no where in Islam are Muslims allowed to kill anyone that does not accept Islam as his/her religion.

I don't really have time right now to listen to an hour long presentation with loads of information non-relevant to my question (such as where the dajjal appears from etc) and which is un-necessarily doubled in length by saying everything in Arabic first.

Coming back to my question, supposing when Jesus goes around invading everyone, is he going to invade Australia even though Muslims are allowed to practise (what seem to me to be) the most essential features of Islam here, and then kill any non-Muslim who is happy to let Muslims follow their religion, but still don't wish to follow His religion or not?

Something I forgot to mention! When Jesus(as) comes back, every Christian on the planet would follow him and become Muslim. Because Jesus will come back and 'set the record straight' as they say. So for example, Australians will already voluntarily become Muslim since it's population(majority) is Christian.

As for other places where people don't accept him then yes they will be killed. This is towards the end of the world and Jesus be abolish 'Jizya' and will not accept it anymore. Jizya is a tax of sorts that non-Muslims pay under an Islamic state(Muslims also pay a tax called zakah). But Jesus will not accept it anymore. Basically the whole world will become Muslim during the time of Jesus(as).

[danieldemol]

Okay, so the Muslim Jesus will be tough luck for Australia's Agnostics, Atheists, Bhuddists, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Baha'is, Spiritual non-religious people, Ahmadiyya, and anyone else who doesn't really fit the description of Christians or Muslims prepared to accept the religion (as Muslims see it) of 2033 year old Jesus (peace be upon Him) even if they respect the personal choices of others.

Edited by danieldemol, 24 June 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[SaracenSoldier]

Okay, so the Muslim Jesus will be tough luck for Australia's Agnostics, Atheists, Bhuddists, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Baha'is, Spiritual non-religious people, Ahmadiyya, and anyone else who doesn't really fit the description of Christians or Muslims prepared to accept the religion (as Muslims see it) of 2033 year old Jesus (peace be upon Him) even if they respect the personal choices of others.

Well there's nothing to say the others won't accept Islam. But these are just the events we have been told will take place near the end of time.

[SaracenSoldier]

61. And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

43. Surah Az-Zukhruf (The Gold Adornments)

http://www.islamicem...adornments.html

"Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (Mariam) (i.e. Isa) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)."

[SaracenSoldier]

Well there's nothing to say the others won't accept Islam. But these are just the events we have been told will take place near the end of time.

Also, let me add something important. The world at that time will not be like it is now. See, the Dajjal(Anti-Christ) will come before Jesus(as). He will enter every city and town on the planet except Mecca and Madinah. He will claim to be God and will have some powers and miracles given to him by God. And the entire planet, pretty much, will follow him. This is when Jesus(as) will return. So at that time maybe there won't be any atheists, bhuddists, etc. Only God knows but the world will not be like it is today.

[Saracen21stC]

Okay, so the Muslim Jesus will be tough luck for Australia's Agnostics, Atheists, Bhuddists, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Baha'is, Spiritual non-religious people, Ahmadiyya, and anyone else who doesn't really fit the description of Christians or Muslims prepared to accept the religion (as Muslims see it) of 2033 year old Jesus (peace be upon Him) even if they respect the personal choices of others.

The rest will be the disbeliever tyrants who would keep on persecuting the believers (Christians and Muslims). Jesus Christ (PBUH) will unite Christians and Muslims, defeat the tyrants and restore peace in earth.

[Wesley]

The rest will be the disbeliever tyrants who would keep on persecuting the believers (Christians and Muslims). Jesus Christ (PBUH) will unite Christians and Muslims, defeat the tyrants and restore peace in earth.

Baha'is are disbelieving tyrants? I find this one humorous.

[Saracen21stC]

Baha'is are disbelieving tyrants? I find this one humorous.

Refer to this post. http://www.gawaher.c...60#entry1260681

The rest (the tyrants) will be the follower of Dajjal.

[Wesley]

I am just curious... according to the Qur'an, who is supposed to lead the Muslim Community? If the current methodology, which is not in the Qur'an were in fact, Divine and Allah ordained, why did the Muslim Community officially split 48 years after the Seal of the Prophets ascended to Heaven? Why did offensive war start one year after He passed from Earth? Why did the Battle of Siffin, the first Muslim civil war occur 25 years after His ascension?

In less than 100 years, the Muslim community has been split as to who is to lead them and which laws outside of the Qur'an to follow. The situation has not improved into 2012. Muslims may be united in one faith, thank Allah for that, but they are definitely split in any matter beyond the Qur'an. Shari'ah? It will never happen until Allah fixes what men corrupted and ruined.

[skydiver2]

Also, let me add something important. The world at that time will not be like it is now. See, the Dajjal(Anti-Christ) will come before Jesus(as). He will enter every city and town on the planet except Mecca and Madinah. He will claim to be God and will have some powers and miracles given to him by God. And the entire planet, pretty much, will follow him. This is when Jesus(as) will return. So at that time maybe there won't be any atheists, bhuddists, etc. Only God knows but the world will not be like it is today.

Do you have any idea when this is likely to come to be?

Salaam.

Sky

[StopS]

The world at that time will not be like it is now.

How do you know?

See, the Dajjal(Anti-Christ) will come before Jesus(as).

How do you know?

He will enter every city and town on the planet except Mecca and Madinah.

How do you know?

He will claim to be God and will have some powers and miracles given to him by God.

How do you know?

And the entire planet, pretty much, will follow him.

How do you know?

This is when Jesus(as) will return.

How do you know?

So at that time maybe there won't be any atheists, bhuddists, etc.

Maybe?

Only God knows but the world will not be like it is today.

If only a god can know all this, why do you pretend YOU know?

[SaracenSoldier]

Do you have any idea when this is likely to come to be?

Salaam.

Sky

The coming of the anti-Christ is one of the major signs of the day of judgement. Prophet Muhammad(saw) gave us many signs that indicate to us that the day of judgement is close. There are many minor signs and there are maybe about 10 major signs if I remember correctly. To answer your question: Only God knows when that will happen. The minor signs have been happening for centuries. Some have already happened and some haven't. But when the first major sign happens the rest will follow very quickly. And it could happen anytime. Because The Prophet Muhammad(saw) was sent as the 'seal of the Prophets', meaning he is the FINAL Messenger that God has sent to mankind. That is it. There will never be anyone else. Why? Because the Day of Judgement is close. He was sent as a final warning to mankind and as a mercy to mankind.

If you want to know what these signs are go here: http://www.kalamulla...r-alawlaki.html

Scroll down to 'The Hereafter' series and then CD's 4 to 7 are minor signs and CD's 8 to 10 dicuss the major signs. I would not recommend a google search as there are many "signs" that might have been made up and not something that The Prophet(saw) told us about. So they might not be 'authentic'.

[SaracenSoldier]

How do you know?
How do you know?
How do you know?
How do you know?
How do you know?
How do you know?
Maybe?
If only a god can know all this, why do you pretend YOU know?

If you look at my earlier posts you will realize I posted a video where the speaker mentions what I tried to 'paraphrase' quickly in detail. I recommend you listen to it. How does he know? Well the things that he mentions you will realize he will quote the verse from Quran or the hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad(saw) to show where he got it from. Here is the video again for you:

[StopS]

If you look at my earlier posts you will realize I posted a video where the speaker mentions what I tried to 'paraphrase' quickly in detail. I recommend you listen to it. How does he know? Well the things that he mentions you will realize he will quote the verse from Quran or the hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad(saw) to show where he got it from. Here is the video again for you:

You see, that's the difference: you simply ######ert, I ask. (Hahaha, the syllable starting with "a" and ending in "ss" is wrongly interpreted and automatically removed. Cute.)

I don't see any value in watching videos if the person can't make their own point. Why do you think or what gives you the impression that a video by some guy telling people what he thinks - without any kind or form of evidence let alone proof - will in any way answer my questions?

I think you will find that I asked YOU what makes YOU believe this, not some random guy.

If you tell me you have the 100% identical belief the guy in the video has, I still have no answer to my question of HOW?

Why does communicating with humans have to be so difficult?

Suggestion: why don't you take one of your assertions or claims, such as: "And the entire planet, pretty much, will follow him."
and explain how you know this, what makes you believe things will be exactly like this and not different.

Because the way it stands, you are not explaining your belief or your religion very well, are you?

Edited by Saracen21stC, 25 June 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[SaracenSoldier]

Ok. I got it from the Quran and the sayings of Prophet Muhammad(saw). This is why I believe it. Does that make sense to you?

[StopS]

Ok. I got it from the Quran and the sayings of Prophet Muhammad(saw). This is why I believe it. Does that make sense to you?

Of course it makes no sense to me. Which is why I am here: to understand why people like you say it makes sense to them. That is why I ask people like you to explain it to me.

Where does it say: "And the entire planet, pretty much, will follow him." Him being Jesus. I have never read that Jesus "will be in conflict with the ... Gog and Magog"
The Koran does not and I am not aware of any authentic hadith claiming this either.

I am aware of claims that the Gog and Magog will be released from behind their huge metal wall or barrier which is supposed to exist somewhere on this planet, but this is on Judgment day. Some Islamic scholars claim they have long been released, because the sentences describing this are so vague and ambiguous.
So I am asking YOU: how do YOU know?
It seems you don't know, but have faith or believe without evidence. Something completely different.

[skydiver2]

The coming of the anti-Christ is one of the major signs of the day of judgement. Prophet Muhammad(saw) gave us many signs that indicate to us that the day of judgement is close. There are many minor signs and there are maybe about 10 major signs if I remember correctly. To answer your question: Only God knows when that will happen. The minor signs have been happening for centuries. Some have already happened and some haven't. But when the first major sign happens the rest will follow very quickly. And it could happen anytime. Because The Prophet Muhammad(saw) was sent as the 'seal of the Prophets', meaning he is the FINAL Messenger that God has sent to mankind. That is it. There will never be anyone else. Why? Because the Day of Judgement is close. He was sent as a final warning to mankind and as a mercy to mankind.

If you want to know what these signs are go here: http://www.kalamulla...r-alawlaki.html

Scroll down to 'The Hereafter' series and then CD's 4 to 7 are minor signs and CD's 8 to 10 dicuss the major signs. I would not recommend a google search as there are many "signs" that might have been made up and not something that The Prophet(saw) told us about. So they might not be 'authentic'.

This Anwar-alawaki guy is considered to be a prophet or a priest or something?
What would the prophet Muhammad consider to be close, I wonder, in 600ad?

But basically you are saying that it might be a million years from now when humanity will be fooled, en-m######e by the 'anti-Christ'? Not much hope for any 'evolution' in terms of human intelligence then? What are they being fooled by now, one might ask.

Salaam,

Sky

[Saracen21stC]

I just want to go couple of posts back to show deception of this StopS.

This was the post of SaracenSoldier.

Elections are not un-Islamic. Secondly, if you want to learn about the Islamic political system and its institutions, etc go learn from some Islamic University or some scholar. We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen.

This is what StopS made out of the highlighted part,

Well, I wish you knew more about your own religion, its rules and rituals.
And if you don't know anything, why do make absolute statements? Why don't you learn and become an expert at something?

Nowhere did SaracenSoldier say, I don't know anything. He just said We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen. That's natural for a human being to say that he does not have all the knowledge as he is still learning. This in no way means that he doesn't know anything.

Then another post,

Oh dear! Think, man! You say you don't know anything and your are all laymen and then? You categorically state:

"elections are not un-Islamic."




Yes, I must be stupid for thinking that someone who declares something as being correct at the same time says he knows nothing.

What is an Islamic State?
Is voting in a non-Muslim, democratic, secular country un-Islamic?
And YOU are the one asking ME whether I think before posting? Oh boy!

And anyway: how do you know I am not a judge? You don't.
You are just ignorant about most things in life and think you have sufficient reason to talk down at people from a dizzy height. Grow up!

Once again note that nowhere did SaracenSoldier say, I don't know anything or I know nothing. These things were all made by that StopS

Now let's highlight the funniest part of this post,

Yes, I must be stupid for thinking that someone who declares something as being correct at the same time says he knows nothing.

Well, you are certainly a stupid but the word hypocrite will fit better.

[Saracen21stC]

This Anwar-alawaki guy is considered to be a prophet or a priest or something?

If you do not even know that Prophet Muhammad (S) is considered by Muslims as the last prophet given to humanity, then it is better for you to not get involved in this advanced issue of Aqeeda in Islam. Learn basics of Islam before even participating here.