142 replies to this topic

[skydiver2]

If you do not even know that Prophet Muhammad (S) is considered by Muslims as the last prophet given to humanity, then it is better for you to not get involved in this serious issue of Aqeeda in Islam. Learn basics of Islam before even participating here.

I'm sorry, I simply asked a question based on what I could see.

salaam,

Sky

[skydiver2]

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of God....." 9:31

Salaam,

Sky

[Saracen21stC]

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of God....." 9:31

Salaam,

Sky

What's the meaning of this post?

[skydiver2]

Surely, you might as well ask what is the purpose of this verse being in the Quran?

Salaam.

Sky

[Saracen21stC]

Surely, you might as well ask what is the purpose of this verse being in the Quran?

Salaam.

Sky

You are seriously getting annoying. First of all I asked the meaning of your post / intention behind quoting that verse. Then, this is the full verse


009.031 اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
009.031 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Al-Qur'an, 009.031 (At-Tawba [Repentance, Dispensation])


There is no way a Muslim can take a priest as their deity/lord. And once again if you do not even know this basic information about Islam, do NOT participate here. Trolling and deceitful quoting is against the forum rules. So be careful.

[StopS]

I just want to go couple of posts back to show deception of this StopS.

Nowhere did SaracenSoldier say, I don't know anything. He just said We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen. That's natural for a human being to say that he does not have all the knowledge as he is still learning. This in no way means that he doesn't know anything.

Once again note that nowhere did SaracenSoldier say, I don't know anything or I know nothing. These things were all made by that hypocrite StopS

Now let's highlight the funniest part of this post,


Well, You are certainly a stupid but the word hypocrite will fit better.

Are you the spokesperson of SaracenSoldier or his lawyer? Or is he incapable of speaking for himself?
Deception? By me? Is this what you call deception? Strong words. Strong words for what? For chiding someone who makes a##olute statements requiring a##olute knowledge and then says he does not.

Did SaracenSoldier say he does not have all the knowledge and he is still learning? No! You made that up. You fabricated it. My ethics don't easily allow insults. If not I would now call you a liar, as you seem to be more at ease with your ethical standards.He was addressing me, by saying: "if you want to learn". He did not say " he is still learning". If you quote someone, don't make stuff up, ok?

Since you seem so hung up on the truth, why don't you tell it like it was? I was in a discussion with SaracenSoldier. He said "We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen". Is this proper English? No. So I interpreted it to say what he meant: his level of knowledge on this topic is not a##olute and total.

Yet he was making an a##olute and total statement or claim: "Elections are not un-Islamic" Now that is categorically claiming something.

No, it is not normal for a human being to make an a##olute statement and then say he's a layman. Again, you are fabricating something.

So you have misrepresented the scenario, you have made up quotes and fabricated parts of sentences. Good going!

Now you see fit to throw in some insults. What exactly is: "a stupid"?
SaracenSoldier does not understand something and thus asks me whether I am stupid. Instead of being offended, I make a joke of it. Which you don't get. Yeah, I'll try to make them less sophisticated in future.

hyp·o·crite
   [hip-uh-krit]
noun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

Did I pretend in any way? Did I feign something?

You should not use vocabulary you don't understand.

And just for the record: I think this slinging mud at people is primitive and immature. Why can't we just have a normal conversation without personal insults?

All I want is for somebody with some knowledge to define the contents and implications of Sharia.

Edited by StopS, 25 June 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[skydiver2]

You are seriously getting annoying. First of all I asked the meaning of your post / intention behind quoting that verse. Then, this is the full verse


009.031 اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
009.031 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they ######ociate (with Him).

Al-Qur'an, 009.031 (At-Tawba [Repentance, Dispensation])


There is no way a Muslim can take a priest as their deity/lord. And once again if you do not even know this basic information about Islam, do NOT participate here. Trolling and deceitful quoting is against the forum rules. So be careful.

I can ######ure you that it was not my intention to annoy you. I simply quoted from a source who's translation was actaully not that disimillar from the one you came up with. I will supply you with the we##ite address if you wish , perhaps it is wrong. So I don't really see how you can accuse me of trolling or going against forum rules. I had thought that this was a friendly forum.
I quoted that verse because it seemed to be appropriote. Is that that wrong?
I was actually under the impression that priests were not actually in existence in Islam anyway, but I used the term as a generalism because it seemed to me that you were using the word.

The forum section was 'Islamic- Western' dialogue, so I naturally presumed I wouldn't necessarily be met by any unpleasant hostility.

Sallam,

Sky

PS How is it that I cannot even use the word ######URE without it being edited out?

Edited by skydiver2, 25 June 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[SaracenSoldier]

I can ######ure you that it was not my intention to annoy you. I simply quoted from a source who's translation was actaully not that disimillar from the one you came up with. I will supply you with the we##ite address if you wish , perhaps it is wrong. So I don't really see how you can accuse me of trolling or going against forum rules. I had thought that this was a friendly forum.
I quoted that verse because it seemed to be appropriote. Is that that wrong?
I was actually under the impression that priests were not actually in existence in Islam anyway, but I used the term as a generalism because it seemed to me that you were using the word.

The forum section was 'Islamic- Western' dialogue, so I naturally presumed I wouldn't necessarily be met by any unpleasant hostility.

Sallam,

Sky

By that verse you quoted you were implying that I take Anwar-al Awlaki as a prophet or a priest. But that does not make sense. Since(as I have been saying from before) in that video the speaker tells us where he got the information from. He says where the hadith is. And it is FROM the Prophet(saw) or a verse from Quran. Do you understand? Shaykh Anwar is not making it up himself, he is telling us about ahadeeth of Prophet Muhammad(saw) or verses from Quran. This is why you guys need to watch the video first before asking nonsensical questions or making nonsensical comments.

[skydiver2]

Please don't put words into my mouth. You are imagining what I was implying.
But It was just that it appeared, from what I could see, that this speaker was maybe being elevated to a station to which he was not actually deserving, in reality. Therefore I thought that the quranic verse I mentioned might well be worth considering. Is that wrong?

You really have no need to insult me, virtually within hours of joining this forum.

Salaam,

Sky

[Saracen21stC]

Are you the spokesperson of SaracenSoldier or his lawyer? Or is he incapable of speaking for himself?
Deception? By me? Is this what you call deception? Strong words. Strong words for what? For chiding someone who makes a##olute statements requiring a##olute knowledge and then says he does not.

Did SaracenSoldier say he does not have all the knowledge and he is still learning? No! You made that up. You fabricated it. My ethics don't easily allow insults. If not I would now call you a liar, as you seem to be more at ease with your ethical standards.He was addressing me, by saying: "if you want to learn". He did not say " he is still learning". If you quote someone, don't make stuff up, ok?

Since you seem so hung up on the truth, why don't you tell it like it was? I was in a discussion with SaracenSoldier. He said "We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen". Is this proper English? No. So I interpreted it to say what he meant: his level of knowledge on this topic is not a##olute and total.

Yet he was making an a##olute and total statement or claim: "Elections are not un-Islamic" Now that is categorically claiming something.

No, it is not normal for a human being to make an a##olute statement and then say he's a layman. Again, you are fabricating something.

So you have misrepresented the scenario, you have made up quotes and fabricated parts of sentences. Good going!

Now you see fit to throw in some insults. SaracenSoldier does not understand something and thus asks me whether I am stupid. Instead of being offended, I make a joke of it. Which you don't get. Yeah, I'll try to make them less sophisticated in future.

Hahaha. Crying and moaning will not help you in hiding your lies and deception. And nowhere did I fabricate any post from SaracenSoldier. All the Muslims here who come regularly at this forum are still learning .All human beings are actually learing. If you do not even know this, then you are simply suffering from paranoia. And he did not say I am not learning. If you accuse him by saying that he said 'I know nothing', then the burden of proof lies on you to show that his post contained that absolute statement. And ironically, you were accusing him of making absolute statements. Just shows your fraudulent behavior.

Did I pretend in any way? Did I feign something?

You should not use vocabulary you don't understand.

And just for the record: I think this slinging mud at people is primitive and immature. Why can't we just have a normal conversation without personal insults?

All I want is for somebody with some knowledge to define the contents and implications of Sharia.

Of course, you pretended to be an honest man, but later kept on fabricating posts of SaracenSoldier. But your deception was exposed. People with your attitude is stumbling block to having an honest discussion. And yes, dishonest people are not allowed here.

[Nightingale]

StopS, where does the idea that a layman knows nothing come from? I'm asking because before I reverted, I was in the Southern Baptist church and all their deacons and most of their staff were laypeople, though many of them were quite knowledgeable for themselves. But by your stance about laypeople, you're saying that they know nothing, which is definitely incorrect.

All layman means is that he doesn't have professional knowledge. Just like many people that talk about politics and other ideas are laypeople, because the great majority don't have professional knowledge. But many of them are quite knowledgeable about the topic. I believe SaracenSoldier far more than I would you about the Qur'an for instance, even if I was to question some interpretation of it.

As for skydiver2, the problem you had was perhaps one of naivete. Christians tend to elevate their pastors and priests to an idolatrous level, but from what I have learned and witnessed myself, most (if not all) Muslims would never do so with their Imams. And they way you posted a section of that verse caused a reaction. If you didn't mean it that way, you need to say so, but saying that Muslims lift up anyone equal to Allah goes against everything that I have learned.

[SaracenSoldier]

Please don't put words into my mouth. You are imagining what I was implying.
But It was just that it appeared, from what I could see, that this speaker was maybe being elevated to a station to which he was not actually deserving, in reality. Therefore I thought that the quranic verse I mentioned might well be worth considering. Is that wrong?

You really have no need to insult me, virtually within hours of joining this forum.

Salaam,

Sky

I did not mean to insult you at all. If you feel my words were insulting then I do apologize. Its just a little hard to discuss properly with StopS on the loose.

[StopS]

Hahaha. Crying and moaning will not help you

You seriously need to learn English. It is called clarifying.

in hiding your lies and deception.

You don't listen or learn easy, do you? You need to prove stuff you claim. Not just a ssert it.

And nowhere did I fabricate any post from SaracenSoldier. All the Muslims here who come regularly at this forum are still learning .All human beings are actually learing. If you do not even know this, then you are simply suffering from paranoia. And he did not say I am not learning. If you accuse him by saying that he said 'I know nothing', then the burden of proof lies on you to show that his post contained that a##olute statement. And ironically, you were accusing him of making a##olute statements. Just shows your fraudulent behavior.

I am getting tired of your childish bickering. I am not here to exchange nonsense with some juvenile zealot. Either get back on topic or keep quiet.

[Saracen21stC]

I can ######ure you that it was not my intention to annoy you. I simply quoted from a source who's translation was actaully not that disimillar from the one you came up with. I will supply you with the we##ite address if you wish , perhaps it is wrong. So I don't really see how you can accuse me of trolling or going against forum rules.

You did not quote the whole verse. The whole verse gave a very different meaning. And of course this is trolling and deception which are against the forum rules.

I had thought that this was a friendly forum.

For friendly people, yes. Not for those you accuse others of wrong act by twisting verse.

I quoted that verse because it seemed to be appropriote. Is that that wrong?

Quoting only a part of verse by hiding the meaning of other part is surely wrong.

I was actually under the impression that priests were not actually in existence in Islam anyway, but I used the term as a generalism because it seemed to me that you were using the word.

That proves that you are intentionally trying to deceive us. And you should have mentioned it in your first post or even when i asked you the question here. This just confirms that now you are coming up with excuses to hide you deception. But you have failed.

The forum section was 'Islamic- Western' dialogue, so I naturally presumed I wouldn't necessarily be met by any unpleasant hostility.

The word Islamic is there. When you do not even know that Muhammad (S) is considered as the last prophet in Islam, then you are not eligible for participation here. People here are hostile towards Deceitful tactics. And you have already tried using that.

PS How is it that I cannot even use the word ######URE without it being edited out?

That's the activity of forum software.

[StopS]

StopS, where does the idea that a layman knows nothing come from? I'm asking because before I reverted, I was in the Southern Baptist church and all their deacons and most of their staff were laypeople, though many of them were quite knowledgeable for themselves. But by your stance about laypeople, you're saying that they know nothing, which is definitely incorrect.

All layman means is that he doesn't have professional knowledge. Just like many people that talk about politics and other ideas are laypeople, because the great majority don't have professional knowledge. But many of them are quite knowledgeable about the topic. I believe SaracenSoldier far more than I would you about the Qur'an for instance, even if I was to question some interpretation of it.

As for skydiver2, the problem you had was perhaps one of naivete. Christians tend to elevate their pastors and priests to an idolatrous level, but from what I have learned and witnessed myself, most (if not all) Muslims would never do so with their Imams. And they way you posted a section of that verse caused a reaction. If you didn't mean it that way, you need to say so, but saying that Muslims lift up anyone equal to Allah goes against everything that I have learned.

Oh please beam me up!

How many times do I need to explain this? I did NOT say a layman knows nothing. I DID say or at least imply that a layman should not make such far-reaching and fundamental claims.

To make it clear once again: He said "We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen". Is this proper English? No. So I interpreted it to say what he meant: his level of knowledge on this topic is not ab solute and total.

So to summarise this: I did not say what you say I was saying. Why can't people stay honest and only talk about what was really said?

And why can't we get on with the real topic? Is this this so much fun that someone thinks he's caught me out? Is it so important to discredit a person's personality? Would it give you that much satisfaction to be able to say: Oh look, StopS has exaggerated something?

As for your as-sessment of Imams in Islam: have you ever lived in a Shia country? Have you ever heard of an Ayatollah? Have you ever heard of the monarchical Caliphate of Mu'awiya of the Ummayad dynasty? Have you never heard that Imams are believed to be divinely appointed from the Prophet's Family? What about the Ismailis? What about the claim of Wilayat Faqih, a##olute power of the representative? What about the Mahdi?

If I were you I would be more specific when talking about Islam and Muslims in general.

And looking at practical solutions you are missing the point entirely. Human computer programs work out what the prayer times are in regions where there is no sunrise or sunset. Human computer programs work out inheritance according to worldly rules. All these are based on Islamic scholars, not the Koran.

[StopS]

PS How is it that I cannot even use the word ######URE without it being edited out?

That's the activity of forum software.

Hardly, as it does not apply to everyone.

[SaracenSoldier]

Hardly, as it does not apply to everyone.

Are you skydiver2's spokesperson or lawyer or something? Is he incapable of speaking for himself?

[danieldemol]

Can we please transfer the whole topic of who has knowledge etc to another thread and then post a link to it here so people wishing to can continue to follow it elsewhere?

[StopS]

Are you skydiver2's spokesperson or lawyer or something? Is he incapable of speaking for himself?

Ah, you liked that

[Saracen21stC]

You seriously need to learn English. It is called clarifying.



You don't listen or learn easy, do you? You need to prove stuff you claim. Not just a ssert it.




I am getting tired of your childish bickering. I am not here to exchange nonsense with some juvenile zealot. Either get back on topic or keep quiet.

Oh please beam me up!

How many times do I need to explain this? I did NOT say a layman knows nothing. I DID say or at least imply that a layman should not make such far-reaching and fundamental claims.

To make it clear once again: He said "We don't have all the knowledge as we are just laymen". Is this proper English? No. So I interpreted it to say what he meant: his level of knowledge on this topic is not ab solute and total.

So to summarise this: I did not say what you say I was saying. Why can't people stay honest and only talk about what was really said?

And why can't we get on with the real topic? Is this this so much fun that someone thinks he's caught me out? Is it so important to discredit a person's personality? Would it give you that much satisfaction to be able to say: Oh look, StopS has exaggerated something?

As for your as-sessment of Imams in Islam: have you ever lived in a Shia country? Have you ever heard of an Ayatollah? Have you ever heard of the monarchical Caliphate of Mu'awiya of the Ummayad dynasty? Have you never heard that Imams are believed to be divinely appointed from the Prophet's Family? What about the Ismailis? What about the claim of Wilayat Faqih, a##olute power of the representative? What about the Mahdi?

If I were you I would be more specific when talking about Islam and Muslims in general.

And looking at practical solutions you are missing the point entirely. Human computer programs work out what the prayer times are in regions where there is no sunrise or sunset. Human computer programs work out inheritance according to worldly rules. All these are based on Islamic scholars, not the Koran.

So many words wasted. These excuses will never hide the fact that you intentionally fabricated posts of SaracenSoldier. And discussing sect related issue is forbidden here.