102 replies to this topic

[StopS]

For almost 1000 years Muslims and/or Arabs have not been contributing scientific knowledge to mankind. Since 1901, only a single Nobel Prize was awarded to a Muslim in a scientific category.

That's over 100 years of scientific recognition, where science itself has only existed maybe 300 odd years to my knowledge. I think before Newton it was more of a philosophy, than a fact-based tool.

Science is only a tool, which measures, observes, analyses and describes our natural environment and can be tested, verified and falsified by anyone. Validity is ensured through predictions, which, if they do not prove to be correct, can lead to the complete annihilation of a scientific model or theory.

So why are Muslims so hostile towards and so suspicious of science?

Is there an alternative methodology of describing our natural world and environment?
Is there an alternative to medical achievements, advancements or remedies?
Is there an alternative to technical achievement or advancement?
Does science in any way interfere with religious belief or faith?
Does science in any way address religion or a god?

Science is based on definitions as well as accurate and precise descriptions, predictions and can be falsified.
Religion is based on faith, not facts.
Religion is based on signs, not science.

Why would any Muslim try and emotionally discredit any branch of science?
Why would any Muslim try to project scientific accuracy into the Koran, which is a book of signs, not science?

I would love to understand why on the one hand Muslims are trying to make the Koran scientifically accurate - yet demonise science on the other.
Maybe someone here can explain this.

[Nightingale]

I think if you go back and look through history, the Muslim/Arab world was far in advance of Western civilization as far as science and medicine go. It's been well-documented that during the Middle Ages, Muslims were the foremost scholars, scientists, medical people that existed. So to say that Islam is against science is a bit of a stretch I would say.

[SaracenSoldier]

We don't demonize science. Where did you get that from? Which Muslim is hostile towards science? Dude we embrace science and technology. There are many writings and documentary's which highlight Muslims contribution to science and technology. Do some research.

Al-Andalus had street lights maybe 400 or so years before Europe did. I know this is not science but just a small example.

[Wanderer]

When Europe was in the midst of the Dark Ages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Muslim world flourished in art, science, and mathematics. The Arab Muslims kept the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans alive and they expanded upon it. It is ironic that Europe didn't really get exposed to that knowledge again until the Crusades, and the trade that resulted from the Middle East acting as a trade hub for the Silk Road.

You could go to any engineering school, any tech company, or any research laboratory today and chances are you'll find Muslim scientists and engineers working there. How religious the individual scientist or engineer is, is variable.

[andalusi]

you see, this is the problem with you atheists, you dont study the matter but you are already jumping into conslusion.

So why are Muslims so hostile towards and so suspicious of science?

BBC :: The Truth Behind Discovery of Nicolaus Copernicus about Orbit System











why dont you first educate yourself in history, and then come to us here to teach us

[andalusi]

[andalusi]

[StopS]

I think if you go back and look through history, the Muslim/Arab world was far in advance of Western civilization as far as science and medicine go. It's been well-documented that during the Middle Ages, Muslims were the foremost scholars, scientists, medical people that existed. So to say that Islam is against science is a bit of a stretch I would say.

Which is why I specified: for almost 1000 years, Muslims have not contributed to science. And what you are talking about is the Arab Golden Age, nothing to do necessarily with Muslims. There were Christian, Jewish, Pagan, Zoroastrian and other Arabs of different faiths who were united in research and progress.

[StopS]

We don't demonize science. Where did you get that from? Which Muslim is hostile towards science? Dude we embrace science and technology. There are many writings and documentary's which highlight Muslims contribution to science and technology. Do some research.

Al-Andalus had street lights maybe 400 or so years before Europe did. I know this is not science but just a small example.

I know many, many Muslims who speak of "scientism", trying to make it look bad.
There are many, many Muslims who don't accept evolution.
Almost all Muslims believe in creation, not science.
I thought I specifically mentioned 2 times (twice, 2x) that I am not talking about what Muslims or Arabs did 1000 years ago, but lately, like the last 300 years.
Whether Spain had some scientific achievement almost 1000 years ago is an irrelevant point.

That's where I get this from, dude.

[StopS]

When Europe was in the midst of the Dark Ages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Muslim world flourished in art, science, and mathematics. The Arab Muslims kept the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans alive and they expanded upon it. It is ironic that Europe didn't really get exposed to that knowledge again until the Crusades, and the trade that resulted from the Middle East acting as a trade hub for the Silk Road.

Why is everyone ignoring my question? Why do people think this helps?

My question is: why are Muslims so much against science, not contributing anything scientific for mankind today?

I know the various claims regarding science in the Koran, which is a joke. I am not talking about pseudo-science, but real science, demonstrable, precise, accurate, reproducible, testable, falsifiable theories with inherent predictive capabilities.

You could go to any engineering school, any tech company, or any research laboratory today and chances are you'll find Muslim scientists and engineers working there. How religious the individual scientist or engineer is, is variable.

That's my point: Muslims work there, but they don't research or design. Was the Burj al Arab or Al Khalifa designed and built by Muslims? Are there any medicines or ceramics researched, designed and produced by Muslims?

[StopS]

andalusi

Please ignore this thread. This is a scientific question, not your Harun Yahya copy/paste.

Edited by StopS, 15 June 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Nightingale]

Which is why I specified: for almost 1000 years, Muslims have not contributed to science. And what you are talking about is the Arab Golden Age, nothing to do necessarily with Muslims. There were Christian, Jewish, Pagan, Zoroastrian and other Arabs of different faiths who were united in research and progress.

Really? Then may I ask why when my brother graduated from VCU this year, the majority of the students in the Engineering school (about 65%) and the Medical school (close to 50%) were Muslim? And for the Medical school...MCV is rated as one of the top med schools in the United States so it is very good quality. Why is it that my father (despite not being Muslim) works in Saudi Arabia for a Saudi company where he's one of only 3 westerners on his project?

There's a perception in the Western world that they are the only ones with science.

As for in the past 300 years...well, considering that when I mentioned history I was talking about AFTER the Renaissance as well. In the 17th and 18th Centuries, Muslims were vastly ahead of most Western scientific minds. Anyone who says otherwise is just spouting propaganda. (I speak with knowledge of history up to the 20th Century.) In architecture, you know that the tallest building in the United States was designed by a Muslim? I didn't until learning about it.

[StopS]

Really? Then may I ask why when my brother graduated from VCU this year, the majority of the students in the Engineering school (about 65%) and the Medical school (close to 50%) were Muslim? And for the Medical school...MCV is rated as one of the top med schools in the United States so it is very good quality. Why is it that my father (despite not being Muslim) works in Saudi Arabia for a Saudi company where he's one of only 3 westerners on his project?

There's a perception in the Western world that they are the only ones with science.

This is why I am asking this question. Now it seems we have a factual base.

I don't have any doubts regarding the technical abilities in Engineering. I am more concerned with research in medicine and new technologies such as emerging materials such as ceramics, or functional research into the fuel cell.

As for your 2nd point regarding Medical School: how can anyone pass biology without evolution? Students in London boycott classes when it comes to evolution by walking out. How can you go to a school to learn about medicine and not understand vaccinations and evolution based strands of types of a virus?

I don't speak for the West (whatever that really means) but only about my own opinion. And yes, my opinion is that Muslims are highly selective in what they allow into their real world, when it comes to science. Just look at the guy who is posting all these videos here in this thread. He has no idea what science is and believes science is created by atheists and freemasons, who want to rule the world. THAT is what I think governs the Muslim world. If I walk into the Islamic Cultural Center in Doha, I see that there are barriers in the seas and this is a scientific fact. They don't understand and don't want to understand reality. They see this in the Koran and take it literally and as a scientific miracle, regardless of what the truth says or what science shows.

And THAT is what I am interested in: how do modern Muslims in 2012 consolidate their belief with what you are saying is the norm of an open-minded person.

As for in the past 300 years...well, considering that when I mentioned history I was talking about AFTER the Renaissance as well. In the 17th and 18th Centuries, Muslims were vastly ahead of most Western scientific minds. Anyone who says otherwise is just spouting propaganda. (I speak with knowledge of history up to the 20th Century.) In architecture, you know that the tallest building in the United States was designed by a Muslim? I didn't until learning about it.

"Muslims were vastly ahead of most Western scientific minds" could you possibly substantiate that with facts? I thought I researched this quite thoroughly and I would be surprised if I missed that Muslims in the 20th century made any ground-breaking discoveries.
"the tallest building in the United States was designed by a Muslim" which one is this? I was unable to find any references for this.

But all differences aside: I am very happy to hear that you are protesting my question, which shows you are thinking independently and are not averse to science yourself, which I find great.

[Nightingale]

The Sears Tower (now Willis Tower) and John Hancock Center's lead engineer (called the Einstein of Structural Engineering) was Fazlur Rahman Khan. You can read about him as he was a top architect and engineer and is called "The Greatest Structural Engineer of the 20th Century". His works also inspired the Burj Khalifa in Dubai.

Now on medicine...going back to the 1600s and 1700s...Dr. William Harvey was the first person in the Western world to describe exactly the circulatory system. There is evidence that he learned much of that from Muslim and Jewish doctors (themselves trained by Muslim doctors). That's just one case in point (and I am pretty sure more examples can be found closer to home). I can't speak for all, but I have yet to meet a Muslim that doesn't believe in the sciences including biology. At least here in the United States. That's like saying that Jews and Christians don't believe in any science either.

[StopS]

The Sears Tower (now Willis Tower) and John Han#### Center's lead engineer was Fazlur Rahman Khan.

There is evidence that he learned much of that from Muslim and Jewish doctors

Thanks, that was quick! Yes, I agree with you. And this is not what I am talking about, as I've explained.
Your example of a Mr. Harvey makes my point and does not refute it. So I'm ok when I say no groundbreaking discoveries were made by Muslims in the last x centuries.
I've recently interviewed 2 professors, one being Prof Hoodbhoy in Pakistan who strongly criticises the educational system of Islamic countries and then, to balance it as it were, Prof Syed in the US, who, as Muslim, criticises the lack of critical thinking amongst Muslims. So I am not alone in my perception.

[Wanderer]

Why is everyone ignoring my question? Why do people think this helps?

My question is: why are Muslims so much against science, not contributing anything scientific for mankind today?

I know the various claims regarding science in the Koran, which is a joke. I am not talking about pseudo-science, but real science, demonstrable, precise, accurate, reproducible, testable, falsifiable theories with inherent predictive capabilities.

That's my point: Muslims work there, but they don't research or design. Was the Burj al Arab or Al Khalifa designed and built by Muslims? Are there any medicines or ceramics researched, designed and produced by Muslims?

Are you saying the Muslims at these firms are only janitors, human resource personnel, technicians, and auditors, and not scientists or engineers?

Engineers, by definition, DESIGN products and processes using scientific and mathematical principles. Engineers in academia who attain master's and doctorate degrees go beyond that and blur the line between science and engineering as they perform scientific RESEARCH with or without scientists on new scientific phenomena that can be used in products that the rest of humanity can use.

Most engineering and scientific research done today is multi-disciplinary, which requires people of various scientific and technical backgrounds working together, and chances are you'll find Muslims among those teams of researchers. You're not going to find just one name attached to articles in technical and scientific journals much anymore as the problems faced today are much more complex for just one human mind to comprehend.

The world population of scientists and engineers aren't exclusively made up of Atheists and Agnostics. There are Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Deists, to name a few religious backgrounds. You can't just single out one group and say unilaterally that that one group is devoid of any scientific mindset whatsoever in today's world.

[StopS]

Are you saying the Muslims at these firms are only janitors, human resource personnel, technicians, and auditors, and not scientists or engineers?

No, of course not. Muslims can drive cars and fly planes, but they don't develop or fabricate them. It's the factor innovation I'm after, as opposed to static, superstitious grovelling.

Engineers, by definition, DESIGN products and processes using scientific and mathematical principles. Engineers in academia who attain master's and doctorate degrees go beyond that and blur the line between science and engineering as they perform scientific RESEARCH with or without scientists on new scientific phenomena that can be used in products that the rest of humanity can use.

OK, let's start there then. Give me an example of a female or male Muslim scientific researcher.

And more importantly, I want to point out that this is not my actual question. This is a side issue because Muslims see fit defending their scientific attitude, which I don't see.
I see people who make statements like: scientism can't prove anything, just like evolution, which was invented by atheists, can't prove the cause of the Universe and is the cause for the existence of Hitler's Nazis and the rape of women. This is the level of knowledge I am normally confronted with.

Most engineering and scientific research done today is multi-disciplinary, which requires people of various scientific and technical backgrounds working together, and chances are you'll find Muslims among those teams of researchers. You're not going to find just one name attached to articles in technical and scientific journals much anymore as the problems faced today are much more complex for just one human mind to comprehend.

Oh yes, you do. Have you heard of Newton's laws of motion, Einstein's theories, do the names Darwin, Dalton, Hawking, Collins, Hubble, Kepler, Galileo, etc etc mean anything to you?

The world population of scientists and engineers aren't exclusively made up of Atheists and Agnostics. There are Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Deists, to name a few religious backgrounds. You can't just single out one group and say unilaterally that that one group is devoid of any scientific mindset whatsoever in today's world.

Oh yes, I can. I defined it. I claimed that Muslims are the least scientific religious group on our planet. Can I prove this? Of course, it's easy. I just count the % of population and count the number of scientific Nobel Prizes per population %. That gives me an index. Can you guess the outcome?
Then I take the Hirsch index and compare religious people on this level of impact.
Can you guess the outcome?
Then I look at ground-breaking achievements over the last 300 years and assign groupings to them.
Can you guess the outcome?

Please don't think I am belittling those who use their intellect and capabilities and who are doing a world-class job.
Please don't think that I am saying Muslims are stupid or retarded. I am not. I clearly said: "have not been contributing scientific knowledge to mankind", which is fundamentally different.
I just want to know how Muslims accommodate their restrictive beliefs with the scientific reality and how they consolidate the literal understanding of a religious book with science and future development.

[Nightingale]

You know, you are coming across as EXTREMELY offensive on this point StopS. I pointed out that MCV doesn't award medical degrees unless you go through their ENTIRE program. There are Muslim scientists at many major pharmaceutical companies. There is a Muslim project manager at DuPont here in Richmond. There is a Muslim director of research at Altria Group here in Richmond. How do I know? I've met them personally!

You really do need to learn not to make blanket statements without providing proof. Scientific Nobel prizes are just like other Nobel prizes. Awarded by a committee that is entirely dominated by Western Civilization that are so wonderful that they awarded Barack Obama a Peace Prize before he had done anything. In short, they make mistakes and don't have to back up their decisions.

[Wanderer]

No, of course not. Muslims can drive cars and fly planes, but they don't develop or fabricate them. It's the factor innovation I'm after, as opposed to static, superstitious grovelling.

So you're saying that there are no automotive nor aerospace engineers who are Muslim?

OK, let's start there then. Give me an example of a female or male Muslim scientific researcher.

I did a very cursory search for Muslim scientists and engineers, and put down a few of those names quickly from a list of those from the 20th century onward:

• Fazlur Khan - architect and structural engineer; called the "Einstein of structural engineering"
• Ali Mortimer Javan - quantum physicist and co-inventor of the gas laser in 1960
• Cumrun Vafa - string theorist at Harvard University
• Nima Arkani-Hamed - theoretical physicist: high-energy physics, string theory, cosmology
• Munir Nayfeh - Nanotechnology researcher
• Kerim Kermov - aerospace engineer; was the leading researcher in the Soviet space program starting with Sputnik I
• Farouk El-Baz - NASA scientist that aided in the selection of landing site for the Apollo missions
• Sameera Moussa - nuclear scientist that worked to make nuclear medicine available to all
• Ali Moustafa Mosharafa - contributor to the development of quantum theory and relativity
• Mostafa El-Sayed - nanoscience researcher and chemical physicist
• Ahmed Zewail - NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY in 1999 for his work in femtochemistry

And more importantly, I want to point out that this is not my actual question. This is a side issue because Muslims see fit defending their scientific attitude, which I don't see.
I see people who make statements like: scientism can't prove anything, just like evolution, which was invented by atheists, can't prove the cause of the Universe and is the cause for the existence of Hitler's Nazis and the rape of women. This is the level of knowledge I am normally confronted with.

That's not really different with non-scientists and engineers of any faith. Some may just be more vocal about it than others. But I've seen people who make the same statements who aren't Muslim. I've heard "New Age" adherents claim much the same that science can't prove anything or evolution is a lie.

Oh yes, you do. Have you heard of Newton's laws of motion, Einstein's theories, do the names Darwin, Dalton, Hawking, Collins, Hubble, Kepler, Galileo, etc etc mean anything to you?

Believe it or not, the truths those men discovered were much "simpler" than the truths that are being discovered today. In earlier times, it was possible for a single individual to make scientific breakthroughs. It's getting less and less possible for a single individual today to make paradigm-shifting discoveries. Even those men didn't completely make their discoveries in total isolation as they corresponded with other thinkers of their times. Everything today is based upon what those scientists discovered long ago. The total body of human scientific knowledge today is much, much greater than even 50 years ago. The human brain can only study smaller and smaller parts of that total as the knowledge base increases.

The research that is done by universities and research laboratories today require the brainpower of dozens to hundreds of scientists and engineers of various backgrounds. Much of the current research requires a lot of convergence of many different fields that rarely interacted on such a level in previous times. You're almost never going to find only one name attached to a research paper in any peer-reviewed scientific and engineering journals today because of the vast complexity of the problems faced, such as in nanoscience and nanotechnology.

Every time I peruse through a peer-reviewed scientific journal, I find all sorts of "Muslim" names listed as authors and contributors. That means there are Muslim scientists and engineers working to advance our knowledge base along with everyone else.

Oh yes, I can. I defined it. I claimed that Muslims are the least scientific religious group on our planet.

You've really gone through every religious group on the planet, from Animists to Zen Buddhists, and concluded that Muslims are the least scientific?

[StopS]

You know, you are coming across as EXTREMELY offensive on this point StopS.

Offensive? Me? Where?
EXTREMELY offensive? Me? Where?

YOU accuse anyone who does not agree with you as simply "spouting propaganda". I showed you were wrong and I was right. So who is "spouting propaganda"?

I pointed out that MCV doesn't award medical degrees unless you go through their ENTIRE program.

Again: a claim! Where did you point this out?

I point out your mistake of naming the Arab Golden Age something else and you answer with VCU, MCV and your father. Interesting, but irrelevant.

There are Muslim scientists at many major pharmaceutical companies. There is a Muslim project manager at DuPont here in Richmond. There is a Muslim director of research at Altria Group here in Richmond. How do I know? I've met them personally!

And?
How is that relevant to my question?

You really do need to learn not to make blanket statements without providing proof. Scientific Nobel prizes are just like other Nobel prizes. Awarded by a committee that is entirely dominated by Western Civilization that are so wonderful that they awarded Barack Obama a Peace Prize before he had done anything. In short, they make mistakes and don't have to back up their decisions.

Yes Sir! And if you provide some childish conspiracy theory, this takes precedence over the proof I did provide, per my definition right at the start?! But your pseudo-arguments are better, of course.

Look, what is your problem? Is my question too difficult to understand? Then shut up! What you are doing is playing the offended Muslim who is being persecuted by the rest of the world. That's nonsense. I am asking fact based questions and you come with emotional baggage and make all sorts of claims and make me mad. Why can't you just pipe down, take a deep breath and look at what I am asking and have a civilised conversation instead of accusing me of "spouting propaganda"?

Is that so difficult?

To put this back on a factual track, may I ask you 2 simple questions?
1. Do YOU believe the moon was split into 2 parts in the 7th century?
2. Do YOU accept that the Theory of Evolution as formulated by Darwin is based on facts?