102 replies to this topic

[JaneDoe]

A Muslim scientist already has the truth so he does not need to search for it. And yes if there does seem to be a conflict between science and Islam we will choose the Quran and Sunnah. Because if a scientific theory or finding contradicts Islam then it is wrong. But you won't find many scientific findings contradicting the Quran.

That’s truly pitiable. Most of the scientific record contradicts the koran.

For example, having a belief in jinn actually is a viable reason to criticize another person or peoples belief system when that other person insists on forcing those beliefs on others or insists that supernaturalism is a viable competitor to science.

Science has long ago dismissed such absurdities as a geocentric model, a flat earth, the sun setting in a muddy spring, seven heavens, mountains stopping the earth from shaking, meteors as missiles against jinn, and ants speaking perfect koranic Arabic. I really see no mechanism to address these concepts as in any way short of being ludicrous.

[StopS]

I want to expand on whatRon Shirt has correctly said:

Science is a tool.
Science is not a worldview.
Science is like a hammer.
Just like a carpenter is neutral towards a hammer, a scientist is neutral about his scientific method.
Science has nothing in common with atheists.
Science does not disprove the Muslim god.
Science does not address religion at all.
So, as Ron Shirt mentioned, if there is a conflict between a scientific fact and a claim in the Koran, how do Muslims consolidate their beliefs in the 21st century?
Which is why I gave nightingale the example of the split Moon, which can be seen literally or allegorically, as specified in the Koran 3:7.
A person has a choice on how to see this. I know how I see it but I don't know how Muslims resolve issues such as this, which is what I am interested in.
Scientists invent bicycles, batteries, TV's, phones, vaccines, GPS, CCD's and microwave ovens. Are Muslims afraid of science because it explains areas previously reserved exclusively to religion?
Why do I claim that Muslims are afraid, hesitant, weary or suspicious of science is because of the selective view of science, where gravity is embraced but evolution is rejected even though they are both theories.
One is explained by planets, the other might encroach on the responsibility of the Islamic religion, specifically mentioning Adam, which is not actually the case a matter for evolution. As it turns out, evolution as in bringing forward different species including humans, was actually propagated by Muslims long before Darwin formulated it. So I would love to be able to ignore all arguments regarding evolution.

[StopS]

SaracenSoldier:

You original question was why do we Muslims reject science or are suspicious of it. I am telling you that we are NOT against science. Full stop. If apes are your thing, go for it. For us that's not scientific.

But why are we focusing only on the theory of evolution? Is that all science is for you? Or is that the only thing that makes it easy to debate against Islam with?

"we are NOT against science" Let me assume for a moment that "we" is all Muslims and you speak for all Muslims, do you maintain that all Muslims believe that mountains have a function and stabilise Earth's crust?

"For us that's not scientific" Let me assume for a moment that "we" is all Muslims and you speak for all Muslims, do you maintain that all Muslims believe that humans are not a type of ape?

"why are we focusing only on the theory of evolution" Because it is the most important issue for Muslims in my experience and the easiest misconception to disprove.

I am happy to debate any Muslim on any issue - but not here and preferably on something which is worth debating.

Edited by StopS, 17 June 2012 - 01:15 AM.

[Scotia]

As for evolution, there is proof of evolution and there is also proof disproving evolution. Hence why it is a scientific theory. So please leave off that because there are scientists that have proven Darwin was incorrect in many areas.

Now, I know a LOT about biology. Why? Because I have very personal experience with biology and genetics. And yet you continue. Biology is not simply evolution. What about genetics? I know people of varying faiths who disagree with genetics. So do they not pass biology? I never took part in dissection in biology, I still passed.

Muslim medical students I've met do understand better than you or me about vaccinations. And evolution of disease has been proven so yes they understand and learn about that. If you have definite proof that none of them do, please share. Because I can ask 6 of them to come on here and actually disprove you. And I was talking with a friend of mine who graduated from MCV and is an Oncology Specialist who admitted that the chief researcher for pediatric oncology at UVA Medical Center is a devout Muslim. And he believes in evolution, the parts that have been proven by science. Science is not pure fact. Even Einstein's Theory of Relativity can't be completely proven. And Einstein was a certified genius.

Muslims 'consolidate' their beliefs the same as every other religious person. How do Catholic hospitals do it? They are even stricter on evolution and denial of things, but yet they are more than capable of putting that aside to have some of the best medical facilities in the USA. Yes, you are asking for Muslims...but it is ALL people of faith that have to go through that.

Muslims came up with the idea of flight before even Leonardo Da Vinci. Muslims came up with surgical techniques before the western world ever did. Muslims discovered the heliocentric nature of the solar system before Gallileo did (and he was almost executed for believing that).

Anytime I give you any answers, you ignore them or berate people. You attacked someone else (andalusi) without cause and yet you tried to paint yourself as a victim. I am trying to calmly debate you but you don't seem to want to listen to anything I say.

As for anything else, my personal beliefs don't matter because I do believe in science that is proven. I reject those parts of Darwin's theory that can't be replicated and therefore have been found to be incorrect. But I'm not a scientist, I'm a writer mainly as well as a soccer referee. So I am not the one to worry about. So why should my personal beliefs give you a problem?

I see you cannot grasp what a scientific theory is even it has been explained so many times on this forum.

What is it with religious ppl and scientific theory that they just cant seem to get there heads around?

[SaracenSoldier]

That’s truly pitiable. Most of the scientific record contradicts the koran.

For example, having a belief in jinn actually is a viable reason to criticize another person or peoples belief system when that other person insists on forcing those beliefs on others or insists that supernaturalism is a viable competitor to science.

I don't need your pity. Trust me. Also, when has any Muslim forced you to believe in Jinns or anything? Are we forcing you to believe in what we believe by merely sharing our views on an online forum?

Science has long ago dismissed such absurdities as a geocentric model, a flat earth, the sun setting in a muddy spring, seven heavens, mountains stopping the earth from shaking, meteors as missiles against jinn, and ants speaking perfect koranic Arabic. I really see no mechanism to address these concepts as in any way short of being ludicrous.

Some of the things you mentioned are not even in the Quran. Where did you get 'flat earth' from? Also where did you get that ants speak perfect Arabic? Can you show me the scientific "dismissals" for the rest of the things you mentioned?

Also, I have not heard anything about a muddy spring and the sun. Can you share more details on that?

[StopS]

As for evolution, there is proof of evolution and there is also proof disproving evolution. Hence why it is a scientific theory. So please leave off that because there are scientists that have proven Darwin was incorrect in many areas.

Now, I know a LOT about biology. Why? Because I have very personal experience with biology and genetics. And yet you continue. Biology is not simply evolution. What about genetics? I know people of varying faiths who disagree with genetics. So do they not pass biology? I never took part in dissection in biology, I still passed.

How do I break this to you gently? You know absolutely NOTHING about evolution. You know NOTHING about biology.

Sorry.

You don't even understand what a scientific theory is, even though it was defined so nicely earlier.

You can't "disagree" with genetics the same way as you can't "disagree" with gravity or the coefficient of lift.

Muslim medical students I've met do understand better than you or me about vaccinations. And evolution of disease has been proven so yes they understand and learn about that. If you have definite proof that none of them do, please share. Because I can ask 6 of them to come on here and actually disprove you. And I was talking with a friend of mine who graduated from MCV and is an Oncology Specialist who admitted that the chief researcher for pediatric oncology at UVA Medical Center is a devout Muslim. And he believes in evolution, the parts that have been proven by science. Science is not pure fact. Even Einstein's Theory of Relativity can't be completely proven. And Einstein was a certified genius.

If you want to make a point you will have to do that. Ask these 6 candidates to come here and testify that vaccinations are possible without an understanding of evolution. They would not disprove me, but the scientific society of all evolutionary biologists and probably receive a Nobel Prize for showing an alternative understanding of evolution and how species develop.

You see, you are actually proving my point - probably without realising it. Your oncologist accepts evolution as a fact. (AGAIN: you can NOT believe in evolution)

Science is a tool. A scientific theory is based on facts. Plus defined assumptions based on prior knowledge.

If I tell you I have a car in my garage, will you believe me? Well, you don't know me, so you have no reason to either trust or distrust me, so you will remain neutral about this. However, if I now claim I have a 747 inside my car you will not believe this, even though I have not divulged the size of the garage nor the type of car and have not specified that by the number 747 I actually mean a Boeing 747 type aircraft. Even though you don't know me, my car or my garage, you will reject my claim. Why? Because you are basing this decision on known facts and knowledge. So with your knowledge and new measurements regarding the speed of light you can validate Einstein's special theory. The general one is already disproven by the erratic behaviour of very small, subatomic particles.

Muslims 'consolidate' their beliefs the same as every other religious person. How do Catholic hospitals do it? They are even stricter on evolution and denial of things, but yet they are more than capable of putting that aside to have some of the best medical facilities in the USA. Yes, you are asking for Muslims...but it is ALL people of faith that have to go through that.

This statement is based on false generalisations. There are >30000 Christian groupings. Only a minor percentage (mostly in the USA) deny the fact of evolution. Medical facilities include the treatment of a broken bone or the transplant of a kidney. Possible without an acceptance of evolutionary principles. Who was the head of the human genome project (HGP)? A devout Christian. He believes that Jesus physically existed - but accepts evolution.

So I am sorry to say: your straw-man sucks.

Muslims came up with the idea of flight before even Leonardo Da Vinci. Muslims came up with surgical techniques before the western world ever did. Muslims discovered the heliocentric nature of the solar system before Gallileo did (and he was almost executed for believing that).

I agree with you. Muslims took the knowledge of the time and advanced it. 1000 years ago. Greeks, Indians, Egyptians, Jews, Assyrians, etc did the groundwork. Muslims expanded it. That's what I said in my opening post.

Anytime I give you any answers, you ignore them or berate people. You attacked someone else (andalusi) without cause and yet you tried to paint yourself as a victim. I am trying to calmly debate you but you don't seem to want to listen to anything I say.

Sorry, you don't provide answers. At least not to the questions I am asking.

Oh, I have a lot of cause for asking andalusi not to get involved. BTW: I did not attack him.
We, you and I, can calmly debate, but not on the level andalusi provides. That is totally, completely, utterly childish and not constructive at all.

As for anything else, my personal beliefs don't matter because I do believe in science that is proven. I reject those parts of Darwin's theory that can't be replicated and therefore have been found to be incorrect. But I'm not a scientist, I'm a writer mainly as well as a soccer referee. So I am not the one to worry about. So why should my personal beliefs give you a problem?

Au contraire! What I am primarily interested in is exactly that: YOUR opinion. THAT is why I am here, to get personal opinions how Muslims in the 21st century consolidate their beliefs.
Maybe I should open a thread on evolution to weed out misconceptions. The problem is that I am not an evolutionary biologist and not specialised in the area.

There is very little that Darwin's theory has in common with today's knowledge on evolution. BUT: his initial understanding and concept has been proven to be correct.

I have no idea what you think is incorrect and where you get this from, but your opinion is symptomatic. Have you ever heard of Jerry Coyne and his book "Why Evolution Is True", where he addresses many of the common creationist arguments head-on? I think there are actually some videos about this on YouTube. I don't want this to become an evolution thread, so let's leave it at that.

[andalusi]

seven heavens,

even your atheists scientists say that, and explains how it is possible, seven heavens are parallel universes theory, wich is part of string Theory

look for your self, how your atheist scientists explain that

mountains stopping the earth from shaking,

The Quran on Mountains
http://www.islam-gui...frm-ch1-1-b.htm

meteors as missiles against jinn,

LIE, not true eighter, it does not mention metheors against Jinn but it talks about gamma ray bursts, look for yourself

and ants speaking perfect koranic Arabic.

this has also been proved in american news 2009, confirmation that ants do indeed speak to eachother accustically

I really see no mechanism to address these concepts as in any way short of being ludicrous.

as you can see, i debunk every single of your lies against quran, and i gave you prove for everthing i say.

my advice to you, dont read about islam from anti-islam propaganda sites, you shall learn about islam form real islam sources not lies wich missguide you.

[andalusi]

That’s truly pitiable. Most of the scientific record contradicts the koran.

For example, having a belief in jinn actually is a viable reason to criticize another person or peoples belief system when that other person insists on forcing those beliefs on others or insists that supernaturalism is a viable competitor to science.

Science has long ago dismissed such absurdities as a geocentric model, a flat earth, the sun setting in a muddy spring,

no quran never says anything about geocentric model or a flat earth, if it do, show us verses where it says so so we can analyze it.

the sun setting in a muddy spring,

the verse is talking about timefactor,

That has already been debunked
http://www.answering...rise_sunset.htm

[018:086] Until, when he reached (بلغ) the setting of the sun, he found it (وجدها) set in a spring of murky water(Black sea) (تغرب في عين):


balagha بلغ (reached) indisputably means he reached the time of sunset.

not that sun is really moving into a sea, wich is studpity made by you anti-quran people.

For example, having a belief in jinn actually is a viable reason to criticize another person or peoples belief system when that other person insists on forcing those beliefs on others or insists that supernaturalism is a viable competitor to science

Jinns are only supernatural thing wich can be proved by expermients, i have proved to myself 2002, where you can feel them with your body. You can prove physically Jinns, but not God or angels.

During islamic exorcism Ruqiyah, you can feel the jinns insaide the body, during special recitated verses from quran, beacuse it burns them, they try to flee in the body, and that makes reactions for the person , headeche, shaking of the parts of the body, nossea, preassure in some parts of the body, that something pull you back like magnet and so on.

So you use acctually against muslims something wich is can be proved very easy that they are real.

[JaneDoe]

no quran never says anything about geocentric model or a flat earth, if it do, show us verses where it says so so we can analyze it.




the verse is talking about timefactor,

That has already been debunked
http://www.answering...rise_sunset.htm

[018:086] Until, when he reached (بلغ) the setting of the sun, he found it (وجدها) set in a spring of murky water(Black sea) (تغرب في عين):


balagha بلغ (reached) indisputably means he reached the time of sunset.

not that sun is really moving into a sea, wich is studpity made by you anti-quran people.





Jinns are only supernatural thing wich can be proved by expermients, i have proved to myself 2002, where you can feel them with your body. You can prove physically Jinns, but not God or angels.

During Islamic exorcism Ruqiyah, you can feel the jinns insaide the body, during special recitated verses from quran, beacuse it burns them, they try to flee in the body, and that makes reactions for the person , headeche, shaking of the parts of the body, nossea, preassure in some parts of the body, that something pull you back like magnet and so on.

So you use acctually against muslims something wich is can be proved very easy that they are real.

That's so silly.

[SaracenSoldier]

That's so silly.

It's not. Jinns are a creation of Allah and they live in this world. We just can't see them.

[andalusi]

That's so silly.

what is silly?

if you mean Jinns, then it only show how little you know about my relgion and the world we live in.


This is islamic exorcism, i have also preformed this many years, so i know what i talk about,










Jinns and Exorcisms in Islam - Abu Muhammad



THIS IS ONLY WAY TO CREATE PARANORMAL ACTIVITY WHEN YOU WANT TO START IT, ONLY TROUGH ISLAMIC EXORCISM

[andalusi]

The World of Jinn

Invitation to Islam, Issue 4, January 1998
Note this article was edited in April 07 to remove some offensive material that was deeemed unislamic as well



Throughout history man has always had a deep attraction for the supernatural and the unseen. The existence of a world parallel to our own has always fascinated people. This world is commonly referred to as the spirit world, and almost every set of people have some concept of one. With some people, these spirits are no more then the souls of dead people- or ghosts. With others, spirits are either the forces of good or the forces of evil - both battling against one another to gain influence over humanity. However, both of these explanations are more in tune with folk tales and fantasy. The true explanation of such a world comes from Islam. Like every other way, Islam also claims to explain this realm of the unseen. It is from this realm that Islam explains to us about the world of the Jinn. The Islamic explanation of the Jinn provides us with so many answers to modem day mysteries. Without the knowledge of this world, the Muslims would become like the non-Muslims and be running around looking for any old answer to come their way. So, who or what are the Jinn?
Existence
The Jinn are beings created with free will, living on earth in a world parallel to mankind. The Arabic word Jinn is from the verb 'Janna' which means to hide or conceal. Thus, they are physically invisible from man as their description suggests. This invisibility is one of the reasons why some people have denied their existence. However, (as will be seen) the affect which the world of the Jinn has upon our world, is enough to refute this modern denial of one of Allah's creation. The origins of the Jinn can be traced from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Allah says:

"Indeed We created man from dried clay of black smooth mud. And We created the Jinn before that from the smokeless flame of fire"
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:26-27)

Thus the Jinn were created before man. As for their physical origin, then the Prophet (saws) has confirmed the above verse when he said: "The Angels were created from light and the Jinn from smokeless fire" [1]. It is this description of the Jinn which tells us so much about them. Because they were created from fire, their nature has generally been fiery and thus their relationship with man has been built upon this. Like humans, they too are required to worship Allah and follow Islam. Their purpose in life is exactly the same as ours, as Allah says:

"I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me"
(Surah Ad-Dhariyat 51:56)

Jinns can thus be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, due to their fiery nature the majority of them are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Jinns form a part of the army of the most famous Jinn, Iblis- the Shaytan[2]. Consequently, these disbelieving Jinns are also called Shaytans (devils). As for the Jinns who become Muslims, then the first of them did so in the time of the Prophet (saws) when a group of them were amazed by the recitation of the Qur'an. Allah orders the Prophet to tell the people of this event:

"Say (O' Muhammed): It has been revealed to me that a group of Jinn listened and said; 'Indeed we have heard a marvellous Qur'an. It guides unto righteousness so we have believed in it, and we will never make partners with our lord'"
(Surah Al-Jinn 72:1-2)

In many aspects of their world, the Jinn are very similar to us. They eat and drink, they marry, have children and they die. The life span however, is far greater then ours. Like us, they will also be subject to a Final Reckoning by Allah the Most High. They will be present with mankind on the Day of Judgement and will either go to Paradise or Hell.
Abilities
That which clearly distinguishes the Jinn from mankind, are their powers and abilities. Allah has given them these powers as a test for them. If they oppress others with them, then they will be held accountable. By knowing of their powers, we can often make sense of much of the mysteries which go on around us. One of the powers of the Jinn, is that they are able to take on any physical form they like. Thus, they can appear as humans, animals trees and anything else. Over the last few years the interest in the subject of aliens and UFO's has become heightened. Programmes such as the X-files and the Outer limits have increased the popularity of the theory that aliens exist. Thousands of people have sighted strange looking creatures all over the world. These sightings however, have still not proven substantially that aliens exist. Rather - and it seems more plausible all the sightings of such creatures were just Jinns parading in different forms. So the next time you see something that looks like E.T, its most probably just a wicked Jinn trying to scare and confuse you!
The ability to possess and take over the minds and bodies of other creatures is also a power which the Jinn have utilised greatly over the centuries. This however, is something which has been prohibited to them as it is a great oppression to possess another being. Human possession is something which has always brought about great attention. But the true knowledge of this subject is rare amongst the people. Over the last 3 decades the subject of possession has become very commercialised. During the 70's films such as The Exorcist and Rosemary's Baby were used to educate people about possession. However, because such institutions (the film industry) were heavily influenced by Christianity, knowledge of the subject was non-existent. Rather then educate people about Jinn possession, films such as The Exorcist just tended to scare the living daylights out of us![3] Only through Islam can we understand such a phenomena. We know as Muslims, that Jinns possess people for many reasons. Sometimes it is because the Jinn or its family has been hurt accidentally. It could be because the Jinn has fallen in love with the person. However, most of the time possession occurs because the Jinn is simply malicious and wicked. For this reason we have been told by the Prophet (saws) not to loiter in those places where the Jinns reside, e.g. graveyards, ruins, deserts, market places etc. We have also been commanded to recite the Qur'an frequently in our houses as the Prophet (saws) said: "Indeed, the shaytan flees from the house in which Surah Al-Baqarah (the 2nd chapter of the Qur'an) is recited" [4].
If a person does become possessed, then the name of Allah has to be used in expelling the Jinn. If we look at the practice of the Prophet and his companions, we find many duas (supplications) to exorcise the Jinn. All these duas invoke Allah to help the possessed person. How contrary this is to many modern-day exorcists. Many exorcists, Muslim and non-Muslim, often invoke the names of others besides Allah to exorcise the Jinn[5]. When the Jinn does leave, these people believe that their way was successful. However, this is a ploy of the Jinn, as it knows that if it obeys the exorcist, then it has succeeded in making him worship others besides Allah i.e. commit shirk. The Jinn often returns when the exorcist leaves, as it knows that nothing except the words of Allah can stop it from oppressing others.
It is not only humans which are possessed, but also animals, trees and other objects. By doing this, the evil Jinn hope to make people worship others besides Allah. The possession of idols is one way to do this. Not so long ago the world-wide phenomenon of Hindu idols drinking milk, shocked the world. From Bombay to London, Delhi to California, countless idols were lapping up milk. Ganesh[6] the elephant god, Hanuman the monkey god and even Shiva lingam, the male private organ(!), all seemed to guzzle down the milk as if there was no tomorrow! Unfortunately people were taken in by this (including Muslims) and many flocked to feed (?) the Hindu gods. Anyone who knows about Jinn possession, will undoubtedly know that this is a classic attempt to make people commit shirk. And it worked, as many people started to worship these lifeless pieces of wood and marble. Anyone with half a brain would say to themselves, 'why on earth does a god need to be fed?!! Surely if Ganesh, Hanuman or Shiva were divine then they wouldn't need feeding?' However, such common sense seemed to be lacking as the Jinns played havoc with these gullible people.
The Occult
Through their powers of flying and invisibility, the Jinn are the chief component in occult activities. Voodoo, Black magic, Poltergeists, Witchcraft and Mediums can all be explained through the world of the Jinn. Likewise, so can the illusions and feats of magicians. Because the Jinn can traverse huge distances over a matter of seconds, their value to magicians is great. In return for helping them in their magic, the Jinns often ask for the magicians to sell their souls to them and even to Iblis. Thus the magicians take the Jinn and Iblis as lords besides Allah. In our day, some of the feats performed by magicians and entertainers are without doubt from the assistance of the Jinn.
One of the most frequent activities associated with the Jinn, is fortune telling. Before the advent of the Prophet (saws) fortune-tellers and soothsayers were wide spread. These people would use their associates from the Jinn to find out about the future. The Jinns would go to the lowest heaven and listen to the Angels conversing amongst themselves about events of the Future which they heard from Allah. The Jinns would then inform the fortune-tellers. This is why before the time of the Prophet (saws) many fortune-tellers were very accurate in their predictions. However, upon the Prophet's arrival the heavens were guarded intensely by the Angels, and any Jinn who tried to listen was attacked by meteors (shooting stars):

"And We have guarded it (the heavens) from every accursed devil, except one who is able to snatch a hearing and he is pursued by a brightly burning flame"
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:18)

The Prophet (saws) also said: "They (the Jinn) would pass the information back down until it reaches the lips of a magician or forrtune-teller Sometimes a meteor would overtake them before they could pass it on. If they passed it on before being struck, they would add to it a hundred lies" <a href="http://www.islamawar...tml#Footnotes">[9]. Thus, it is clear from this as to how fortune-tellers get predictions of the future right. It is also evident as to why they get so many wrong. Men like Nostradamus[10] are an example, as some of his predictions of the future were correct whilst many were completely wrong. Unfortunately, the amount of fortune telling which occurs amongst the Muslims is also increasing. By visiting Muslim lands such as Morocco, one is able to see as to how much inter Jinn-fortune-teller activity there really is. If you look up at the sky on a clear night in Morocco, you will see the heavens ablaze with shooting stars! A clear display of the devils being chased away from the heavens.
Fortune-tellers also operate through the Qareen. The Qareen is the Jinn companion which is assigned to every human being. It is this Jinn which whispers to our base desires and constantly tries to divert us from righteousness. The Prophet (saws) said: "Everyone of you has been assigned a companion from the Jinn. The companions asked: Even you O' Messenger of Allah? And the Prophet replied: Even me, except that Allah has helped me against him and he has submitted. Now he only tells me to do good" [11]. Because the Qareen is with a person all his life, it knows all that has happened to the person from the cradle to the grave. By making contact with the Qareen, the fortune-teller is thus able to make out that it is he who knows about the person. He looks in his crystal ball or the palm of a person and proceeds to amaze him with knowledge which no one else knows[12]. The severity of going to a fortune-teller is such that the Prophet (saws) said: "The prayer of one who approaches a fortune-teller and asks him about anything, will not be accepted for forty days or nights" [13] and: "Whosoever approaches a fortune-teller and believes in what he says, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammed" [14]
The effects of the Jinn are not just limited to fortune-tellers. Other activities such as oujia boards and seances, which are used to contact the dead, are manipulated by the Jinn. 'Are you there Charlie? Speak to us Charlie!!' are the sort of words spoken by anxious relatives (names are obviously different!) seeking to make contact with their loved ones. And it is when the Jinn starts to talk and communicate as 'Charlie', that the people are truly fooled[15].
One of the biggest manipulations of the Jinn is through visions. Through these visions the Jinns are more likely to lead people away from the worship of Allah then any other way. When a person sees a vision in front of his eyes it is something which is very hard to explain away. Only by having knowledge of the world of the Jinn and conviction in Allah, can a person fight such a trial. The countless numbers of visions of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary over the centuries has been a popular choice for the devils. It almost seems as if leading Christians astray is the most easiest trick for the Jinns! Not only are Christians fooled by these visions, but often the Jinns possess and begin to talk from their voices. To the Christians this is known as the tongues of the Angels and thus a proof for their faith. However, the amount of unintelligible nonsense and rubbish which is heard is a clear proof that this is in fact the tongues of the devils! For other people, visions of their parents or relatives are commonplace. By taking on the form of peoples parents, the Jinns can convince people that the souls of dead people still mix with the people of the earth. This is why so many people believe in ghosts.
The onslaught of satanic visions has also hit the Muslims. Many Muslims claim to have seen visions of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) and even Allah! By doing this, Shaytan is able to lead astray the weak Muslims. Through such visions, Muslims are often told that the commands of Islam are not applicable to them. The Jinns tell them that Prayer, Fasting, Hajj etc. are not obligatory for them. It is a great deception and unfortunately one which has been very effective. The extent of satanic visions still continues to this day. The recent death of Diana Princess of Wales sparked off great love and adoration for this woman. In fact the grief of the British people was such, that it was as if Diana was something divine. No sooner had the mourning of Diana reached its peak, that visions of her were already being seen at Hampton Court Palace! If these visions did occur, the desire of Iblis and his army of Jinn to capitalise on this event, was evident. Such visions are clear attempts by Iblis to lead mankind away from the path of Allah [16].
The world of the Jinn is one which is both sinister and intriguing. By knowing of this world we can explain many of the mysteries and issues which bother us. By doing this we can avoid the extremes which the people have gone to; nothing being more extreme then worshipping others besides Allah. By learning the Tawheed of Allah, we defend ourselves from these hidden allies of Iblis:

"Indeed he (Iblis) and his tribe watch you from a position where you cannot see them"
(Surah Al-A'raf 7:27)

Maybe there is a Jinn sitting in the corner of your room right now, or even one behind you. If so, then how will you deal with this creation of Allah? Learn Islam properly and you will be able to deal with all of Allah's creation - and not just the Jinn. By becoming true Muslims and followers of Islam, the fear of Iblis, Jinns and anything else will leave us - nothing will touch the Believer unless Allah wills.

Footnotes
1 Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol. 4, p.1540, No.7134
2 It must be remembered that Iblis is a Jinn and not an Angel. The concept of the Devil being a fallen Angel is from Christianity and not Islam.
3 In fact when The Exorcist was first shown on cinema, it was so scary that many people fainted and one even died!
4 Authentic - Reported by Tirmidhee
5 Whilst Christians invoke the name of Jesus, many Muslims invoke the name of pious Muslim saints! The rituals which are conducted by many Muslims are more akin to voodoo then the exorcism practised by the Prophet and his companions!!
6 Ganesh, the elephant headed deity, seemed to be the biggest drinker! In fact it didn't just stop at milk. At the time of these occurrences, a woman in India decided to see if Ganesh would drink anything else - so she offered him whiskey!! And Lo and behold Ganesh drank the Whiskey!!! Suffice to say, the woman was kicked out of India.
7 The ship which was recovered was more then 50 years old. It subsequently caught alight and was conveniently destroyed.
8 Authentic - Reported by Tirmidhee
9 Reported by Bukhari - Eng. Trans. Vol.7, p.439, No.657
10 Michel de Nostradamus was a famous French soothsayer of the 16th century.
11 Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol.4, p.1472, No.6757
12 The classic example of how fortune tellers can be wrong is the case of Diana, Princess of Wales and Dodi Fayed. Both went to see a fortune teller who told Diana that she would live a long and happy life. A few weeks later, on August 31st 1997, Diana and Dodi Fayed were dead. After this the fortune tellers flew for cover, as their evil art showed its decadence.
13 Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol.4, p.1211, No.5540
14 Authentic - Reported by Ahmed
15 Ouija boards are so misleading, that people have even managed to get in touch with the spirit of Jack the Ripper!!
16 An informative book on the world of the Jinn is Ibn Taymeeyah's Essay on the Jinn translated by Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips.

[JaneDoe]

this has also been proved in american news 2009, confirmation that ants do indeed speak to eachother accustically

You're confused amid all your cutting and pasting.


I don’t agree that you debunked anything... because you didn’t.

27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."



That’s remarkable. Ants spoke koranic Arabic?

[SaracenSoldier]

You're confused amid all your cutting and pasting.


I don’t agree that you debunked anything... because you didn’t.

27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."



That’s remarkable. Ants spoke koranic Arabic?

The ant was speaking or communicating in its OWN language. Language of the ANTS. But since Allah(swt) revealed the Quran in Arabic it was translated into Arabic. No where does the Quran claim the ant was speaking Arabic.

Quran talks about so many nations from the past and tells us what their people said and what their prophets said, are you going to come and tell us that the Quran claims that all those people mentioned in the Quran were speaking Arabic? Just because the Quran is in Arabic?

Are you now going to say the bible is false because the it claims Jesus was speaking English? Jesus didn't speak English but the bible is in English, so it's translated into the English language.

[StopS]

The World of Jinn

I asked you politely to please stay away from this thread. Why do you see the need to embarrass Muslims and anyone with some intellect here?
You are not making a point.
You are not providing any coherent arguments.
You are not adding any value.

P L E A S E stop! Go and do your thing on your threads, but PLEASE stop mucking about on this one. Is that so difficult?

[SaracenSoldier]

I asked you politely to please stay away from this thread. Why do you see the need to embarrass Muslims and anyone with some intellect here?
You are not making a point.
You are not providing any coherent arguments.
You are not adding any value.

P L E A S E stop! Go and do your thing on your threads, but PLEASE stop mucking about on this one. Is that so difficult?

Just because you can't refute him you ask him to leave? This is a public place, an Islamic forum and brother andalus is more than welcome here. He can post whatever he wants. You have no authority over this thread and you can't ask people to leave.

[StopS]

The ant was speaking or communicating in its OWN language. Language of the ANTS. But since Allah(swt) revealed the Quran in Arabic it was translated into Arabic. No where does the Quran claim the ant was speaking Arabic.

Quran talks about so many nations from the past and tells us what their people said and what their prophets said, are you going to come and tell us that the Quran claims that all those people mentioned in the Quran were speaking Arabic? Just because the Quran is in Arabic?

Are you now going to say the bible is false because the it claims Jesus was speaking English? Jesus didn't speak English but the bible is in English, so it's translated into the English language.

Please guys! Can we get back on track?

Ants don't have a language other than indicating a food source via scented liquids. They don't have a conscience and can't vocalise thoughts. Will you climb on a flying mule to bring me an ant that you can communicate with? Don't be silly.

Languages are an interesting topic, maybe worth an entire thread. If Adam was created by a creator who spoke Arabic, it is only logical that Adam spoke Arabic. What language did his wife speak? Well, Arabic, I suppose. So what language did their children speak? Children speak the language of their parents, so the children must have spoken Arabic. We don't learn how Adam's grandchildren came about, but they must have spoken Arabic. Their children too. So at what point did children suddenly speak a different language than their parents, to come up with the thousands of languages we have today?

Is the indication here that someone who literally believes in talking ants and the wonderful creatures mentioned in the Koran automatically suspicious of scientific explanations and hostile towards reality?

[StopS]

Just because you can't refute him you ask him to leave? This is a public place, an Islamic forum and brother andalus is more than welcome here. He can post whatever he wants. You have no authority over this thread and you can't ask people to leave.

I know it's a public forum, which is why I pleaded so politely. I started this thread and on another forum I would be considered the owner of this thread. This is known as netiquette.
I am not asking him to leave but to please leave me alone.

Refute? andalusi? Refute?

Refute what?

Look, I know him for a really long time and I have tried to be patient and show him where his mistakes are, but he does not want to learn or be more correct. So if he wants to be ridiculous and continue his mindless copy/paste exercises that's fine. But why here? Just look how many threads he is filling with his nonsensical stuff. No concept, no structure, no contents. Is this necessary?

[SaracenSoldier]

Ants don't have a language other than indicating a food source via scented liquids. They don't have a conscience and can't vocalise thoughts. Will you climb on a flying mule to bring me an ant that you can communicate with? Don't be silly.

I never said I can communicate with an ant. If you re-read the verse you posted, it says the ant was speaking to other ants, warning them that Prophet Solomon's(peace be upon him) army is heading this way and they might accidentally crush you. The ant was not speaking to humans.

Languages are an interesting topic, maybe worth an entire thread. If Adam was created by a creator who spoke Arabic, it is only logical that Adam spoke Arabic. What language did his wife speak? Well, Arabic, I suppose. So what language did their children speak? Children speak the language of their parents, so the children must have spoken Arabic. We don't learn how Adam's grandchildren came about, but they must have spoken Arabic. Their children too. So at what point did children suddenly speak a different language than their parents, to come up with the thousands of languages we have today?

Is the indication here that someone who literally believes in talking ants and the wonderful creatures mentioned in the Koran automatically suspicious of scientific explanations and hostile towards reality?

Umm.. where did you get that Allah(swt) spoke Arabic? Or that Adam peace be upon him, spoke Arabic?

[SaracenSoldier]

I know it's a public forum, which is why I pleaded so politely. I started this thread and on another forum I would be considered the owner of this thread. This is known as netiquette.
I am not asking him to leave but to please leave me alone.

Refute? andalusi? Refute?

Refute what?

Look, I know him for a really long time and I have tried to be patient and show him where his mistakes are, but he does not want to learn or be more correct. So if he wants to be ridiculous and continue his mindless copy/paste exercises that's fine. But why here? Just look how many threads he is filling with his nonsensical stuff. No concept, no structure, no contents. Is this necessary?

Maybe you should start by going over his evidence piece by piece, video by video and refute it. Not for him, but do it to convince other readers. So maybe others can come on the "true path" once they see andalus' evidences being refuted.