17 replies to this topic

[Luckee]

When muslims say: "Allah is not part of EVERYTHING that Exists, but Allah exists." what do they mean?

Allah is non-existant and existant at the same time? How is that even possible? What is non-existance? Does non existance even exists?!

[Luckee]

In other words, "Allah does not exist, but Allah exists."

What do you mean with that?

[SaracenSoldier]

I don't think Muslims say that. What do you mean by "He is not part of everything"?

[Luckee]

I quote the entire post for you, from saracen21st:

It's rather Allah's power exists over everything that is each and everything is within the power of Allah. But everything is not Allah. If He literally exists everywhere, everything equals Allah/part of Allah. This view is wrong. Only Allah is Divine, He is the ONE. Creator and creation is not same thing. I think I have already given explanation in my previous posts regarding this.

Creator and creation is not the same, there is a seperation between what exists and Allah. Allah is not part of the existance he created.

Did Allah even create existance?

[Ron Shirt]

I quote the entire post for you, from saracen21st:


Creator and creation is not the same, there is a seperation between what exists and Allah. Allah is not part of the existance he created.

Did Allah even create existance?

I've always seen on this forum, that Muslims say that 'Allah is completely seperate from His creation'.
This I presume is to be taken in the sense that Allah is not the same as His creation. This is debatable I believe, in the sense that a person would not be said to be the same as his excrement. A mother, on the other hand is not the same as her baby, yet her baby is to a large degree dependant upon her.
I think that - given what Muslims seem to believe regarding prayer and belief etc and Allah's influence in the physical world, then the latter scenario is perhaps more in line with the truth.

regards,

Ron

[Luckee]

I've always seen on this forum, that Muslims say that 'Allah is completely seperate from His creation'.
This I presume is to be taken in the sense that Allah is not the same as His creation. This is debatable I believe, in the sense that a person would not be said to be the same as his excrement. A mother, on the other hand is not the same as her baby, yet her baby is to a large degree dependant upon her.
I think that - given what Muslims seem to believe regarding prayer and belief etc and Allah's influence in the physical world, then the latter scenario is perhaps more in line with the truth.

regards,

Ron

So Allah is part of ALL that exists and He is the Greatest. Then I come tothe conclusion, again, that Allah is ALL that exists. Or the "One".

The One and the ALL are the same thing right?

[Ron Shirt]

I think you're jumping the gun a bit here.
This seems to me to be a matter of His relationship to His creation. It is more of a philosophical question perhaps. The 'One' and the 'Many' - a frequently found expression in Eastern mystical thought is an illustration of God and His creation i.e. the seen and the unseen. It may appear like a paradox or it may appear that at the same time as being seperate they are also 'One'. Depending on one's perspective.

I can see where you are coming from however: to assert that there is anything else in existance but God is a form of polytheism, since the ALL must emanate from HIM then it follows that it is HIM but in a diferrent form.
Some Muslim mystics refer to 'al-ghayb al-mutlaq' by which is meant: 'His absolute unseen essence' from whence every thing comes into existance. But this is known to Himself only.

regards,

ron

[Luckee]

I think you're jumping the gun a bit here.
This seems to me to be a matter of His relationship to His creation. It is more of a philosophical question perhaps. The 'One' and the 'Many' - a frequently found expression in Eastern mystical thought is an illustration of God and His creation i.e. the seen and the unseen. It may appear like a paradox or it may appear that at the same time as being seperate they are also 'One'. Depending on one's perspective.

I can see where you are coming from however: to assert that there is anything else in existance but God is a form of polytheism, since the ALL must emanate from HIM then it follows that it is HIM but in a diferrent form.
Some Muslim mystics refer to 'al-ghayb al-mutlaq' by which is meant: 'His absolute unseen essence' from whence every thing comes into existance. But this is known to Himself only.

regards,

ron

I just want to grasp "existance" itself. Since we can never grasp "non-existance" I can only think of singularity or "everything." I want a complete picture, idea or feeling of the whole of existance. So if Allah is not the whole of existance, I will have to look further then Allah. Do you know what I mean?

If Allah exists, and nothing created him, I must assume that Allah is existance itself. ALL that is. Everything that exists, the one. Infinite, eternal, unchanging truth.

If Allah is seperated from his creation, then what are we. Fake? Are we non-existant?

[Ron Shirt]

I think you are asking a lot! Simply to define what is meant by existence is not all that simple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence

Existence to most people probably means: to have being of some sort, i.e. to have a physical reality involving time and space. But then there is the existence of other realities, such as dream states, the imaganation etc. which some people might say are purely subjective and are therefore not to be included.
Modern science has posited the 'existence' of, I think, eleven diferrent realities recently. What exactly these comprise we are not sure.
Our logically operating minds are seemingly simply unable to cope with such things, hence perhaps the 'solution' involving the idea of a comprehensive reality which we might call God. But our logical minds (being what they are) will always want to know: 'How then did God come into being?'
And I personally think that the answer is at present that we don't know, simply because we just don't. Perhaps one day we will have a better idea.

But to return to your original reasoning regarding "non-existence". Perhaps this is already an old fashioned philosophically based term - I mean basically it used to mean a lack of being, i.e. a lack of existence, nothingness. Nowadays maybe, given the possibility of 'dark matter' or 'anti-matter' it actually might be said to posess the negative qualities of ordinary matter. In other words it is the negation of 'normal' existence and, indeed both if they meet would cancel each other out (presumably resulting in something which is less than, or other than, either existence or non-existence, being or non-being.

To me, existence must encompass simply, everything. Everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be This must be what people call God.
I presume.

Regards,

ron

[Luckee]

One day we will understand why God exists? So you need to justify His existance? Why do we need to justify His existance. Out of distrust? Out of fear for death? Out of disbelieve?

Why do you even talk about non-existance! I was just testing your clarity of mind! Non existance doesnt exist! Hahahaha, come on! No need to make it more complex. Nothing is too simple to be true. Your ideas of nothingness are contained within existance! Everything exists! EVERYTHING!!

Allah exists and we exist as part of that. We pray for clarity of mind and unity/alignment with Allah. Letting go of the ego. Allah is ALL there is, it is the only truth there is, the one being, the one existance, existance itself, all that is. Thus, letting go, surrendering is all that is required in order to realize the one truth! You can only fall towards Allah, if you allow yourself to fall! You do not forsake yourself, paradoxically, you expand into more of yourself! Allah exists and Allah is the Greatest of ALL that exists! Allah is the infinite, the one and only unchanging unity existance! Everything that exists. When you experience it, it exists. When it has being, it exists. As part of Allah. Allah is everywhere at the same time. Everywhere is one place. Here and now, as the one. The one as the ALL. ALL that exists. Allah...

I can't be any more obvious then this...

[Ron Shirt]

I don't know what God is or even IF he is.
The question 'Why?' may well be irrelevant. The logically thinking mind assumes that there needs to be a reason for existance. But the reason (if there is one) may simply be the asking of the question, at least in the case of human beings.
What is the reason for the existance of Jupiter? I would say that it just IS, because it is part of the natural order of the solar system and the universe.

It sounds like you have the answer anyway!

ron

[WeAreComming]

I think I know where you heard this from, well basically there are some people who say: Allah is everything and everywhere, and some people say "Allah is not part of EVERYTHING that Exists, but Allah exists" (well not exactly that) as an explanation, that Allah does not exist in the physical form everywhere, but through his wisdom and knowledge he is everywhere. This can be supported from a verse from the quran:

“Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allah, your Lord; So worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember?” [Yunus: 3]

AND Allah KNOWS BEST.

[WeAreComming]

I think, the above line is the explanation, or argument to the people who literally think that Allah is among his creation in a Physical Form,
AND Allah KNOWS BEST.

[iMusliMariam]

if you still disbelieve in the obvious fact that you are a slave of Allah and that only Allah created you and that you should worship only Allah, if you are so stubborn and feel that you are led astray, can't imagine yourself being a Muslim one day, then accept the sad fact that maybe you're just among those whom Allah has chosen to dwell in Hell

[Luckee]

I think I know where you heard this from,

No you don't. I didn't hear it in any place. It was certainly not an auditory/visual source of information.

that Allah does not exist in the physical form everywhere, but through his wisdom and knowledge he is everywhere.

I am not saying that Allah exists everywhere as physical or as wisdom. I am saying that Allah exists AS EXISTANCE ITSELF! That means, Allah IS EVERYTHING. Not just physical, not just wisdom. Everything. This small concept in your small mind that you call "physical, non-physical, wisdom, knowledge" that is just a small aspect of the totality of Allah and His existance as the Greatest BEING(existance) in all of existance. Allah is the greatest existance in all of existance. The greatest "to be" "to exist" that one can exist in. The greatest state of being, the greatest to be able to be, the highest potential, the greatest oneness, the unchanging, the one and only truth, the non-compariable. So great that there is no more comparison. Allah, being everything. Allah being the being itself. Allah being existance itself. Allah existing as existance. Being as existance. Being to be. Being that Allah is. Allah IS being. Allah is existance. That which exists is Allah. That which is part of existance, an aspect of existance, is an aspect of Allah. Allah is all of existance. As existance, being existance itself.

I can repeat myself to infinity, but I must ask you. Do you understand what I mean now with "everything" ?

[Luckee]

if you still disbelieve in the obvious fact that you are a slave of Allah and that only Allah created you and that you should worship only Allah, if you are so stubborn and feel that you are led astray, can't imagine yourself being a Muslim one day, then accept the sad fact that maybe you're just among those whom Allah has chosen to dwell in Hell

Is there a hell in the future? I look at my watch and it says "now"
I want you to look at your time tomorrow and tell me what it says

Surrender the self to Allah, and you surrender the self identification of being "a slave of a slavemaster." You literally die to the self. LET GO OF ALL SELF-IDENTIFICATION. DIE if you have to. You have to be completely fearless in this "letting go". You do not let go and then "still hold on a tiny bit" COMPLETELY LET GO of the self. That is what true surrender means. Its power is beyond your worldly illusionary ideas of "to controll and to be controlled."

To allow, to act without action. This is the power of Allah. It is the most subtle power in all of existance, it is the only true power in all of existance. It is the greatest power in all of existance. It does nothing, and thus, leaves nothing undone. "Trust, faith, believe, allowance, surrender." They are all the same thing. Action is an illusion. The one and only true action is action without action. Which is simply, allowance and surrender. If you think you are acting, you are in denial. You never acted, you just allowed. You cannot surrender, because you have always been in surrender.

Edited by Luckee, 03 July 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Luckee]

I think, the above line is the explanation, or argument to the people who literally think that Allah is among his creation in a Physical Form,
AND Allah KNOWS BEST.

And you believe that "everything" is physical? Then it is you, paradoxically, who is worshipping the physical as your unchanging truth.
You seperate the physical perspective from All that is, and you make it its own complete truth, seperate from Allah. This allows you to denie the "being" or "existance" of Allah.

You must understand though, the seperation is only an illusion. You can never be seperated from Allah. We're all part of the totality of existance that is Allah.

As you let go of your self, surrender all your thoughts, ideas concepts, or your identification, you will see, beyond vision, very clearly. Everything is now and here. Allah is everything, as existance, as now, as here. Allah is existance and non-existance does not exist. Only Allah exists. There is only one existance and Allah is existance. Allah is, that which Allah is. Allah is not because of any part of Allah. The parts of Allah is because of Allah. There is not comparison "outside" of Allah. There is no "outside" to existance. There is not even an "inside" to existance. Existance just "is" and that is all that it needs to be.

Existance has just one quality to it: "To be". Allah exists as existance, as all of existance, the greatest "being" the greatest "existance". The one, unchanging, all, non-compariable, existance. Everything

Edited by Luckee, 03 July 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[Luckee]

you are a slave of Allah

I do not judge this label though. I even agree with the fact that it is one of the most useful labels to accept, because it requires a selfless person to accept such a label with pride and use it boldly to describe His/Her relationship with the one supreme being, the greatest.

I also appologize in advance if I may have projected upon you the way people use these definitions. I don't know what it means to you to be a slave of Allah. Only you can know what it means to you. I think most of you live beyond words anyway

Edited by Luckee, 03 July 2012 - 02:14 PM.