29 replies to this topic

[SaracenSoldier]

How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister - Joshua Evans

[sereihan]

There are verses in the Quran that recommended Christians and the Jews to find the truth from the bible:

Quran 5:65-66"

"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to Gardens of Bliss.

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side."

Edited by sereihan, 29 June 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[John Paul]

There are verses in the Quran that recommended Christians and the Jews to find the truth from the bible:

Quran 5:65-66"

"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to Gardens of Bliss.

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side."

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” – Galatians 8:1

We seem to have a problem with the verse you just quoted from the Quran. But then again this was written by St Paul which is not part of the four Gospels which Muslims like to disregard ignoring the fact this letter to the Galatians was written before any of the four Gospels were...

[danieldemol]

How are these statements contrary?


"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel"

(King James Bible, 2 Thessalonians)

and

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side."

Both of them insist Christians should obey the Gospel.

[John Paul]

How are these statements contrary?

“whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.” - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

Muslims do not believe that Jesus had died and was raised up from the dead, yet that’s what St Paul preached.

God bless,

Edited by Augustine, 29 June 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[danieldemol]

Agreed

[John Paul]

Agreed

Great – then I suggest you and Wesley should stop trying to prove the Quran does not contradict the bible because in many cases it does.

God bless,

[Wesley]

Great – then I suggest you and Wesley should stop trying to prove the Quran does not contradict the bible because in many cases it does.

God bless,

Please do not tell me what to do. In regards to belief, or independent reasoning, to each his own. If you feel frustrated, take a step back. Think about the values God teaches and consider how to apply those in your interactions with others. Maybe you can approach the subject you hope to teach in a different light. There are many ways to teach one thing.

Telling someone to stop expressing one's belief in the same God is not good.

[John Paul]

Please do not tell me what to do. In regards to belief, or independent reasoning, to each his own. If you feel frustrated, take a step back. Think about the values God teaches and consider how to apply those in your interactions with others. Maybe you can approach the subject you hope to teach in a different light. There are many ways to teach one thing.

Telling someone to stop expressing one's belief in the same God is not good.

My dear sir, please read my post carefully I did not tell you, I suggested you should stop. Whether you realise it or not you are making a mockery of the Gospel. It would be like me using the Quran in an attempt to prove Jesus died and rose again. Now I’m sure Muslims would not appreciate that. You are doing the same with the bible.

God bless,

[danieldemol]

Given that I never said the meaning of the Qur'an is different to the meaning of the Gospel why do you feel this should be so?

[John Paul]

There's many things you did not say but implied.

I think this forum is consuming my time and energy and I fear I may have not acted in virtue of charity as a true Christian should. I think I’m going to take a break for a while, a long while...

All the best guys.

God bless,

[danieldemol]

I confirm that I did not imply that the meaning of the Qur'an is different to the meaning of the Gospel.

All the best with your break, may the All-Merciful Lord bring you peace.

[abdullahfath]

“whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.” - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

Muslims do not believe that Jesus had died and was raised up from the dead, yet that’s what St Paul preached.

God bless,

Do you know the full history of Paul Augustine?

a) He was a former Pharisee
b) His wife left him because of his appearance and married the Ceasar of the Empire {motive anyone}
c) Did not Jesus (pbuh) teach that he would descend in the same manner that he ascended and not to listen if someone claimed to see him in the wilderness? Was not Paul's vision in the wilderness of the road of Damascus?
d) Do you not realize that there are 3 versions of the conversion of Paul in the Acts of the Apostles?
e) Did Jesus not say be leery of those who claim to hear him in the inner room? Did not Paul claim to get his 'revelations' from Jesus (pbuh) while in prison {which is an inner room}?

[John Paul]

Do you know the full history of Paul Augustine?

a) He was a former Pharisee
b) His wife left him because of his appearance and married the Ceasar of the Empire {motive anyone}
c) Did not Jesus (pbuh) teach that he would descend in the same manner that he ascended and not to listen if someone claimed to see him in the wilderness? Was not Paul's vision in the wilderness of the road of Damascus?
d) Do you not realize that there are 3 versions of the conversion of Paul in the Acts of the Apostles?
e) Did Jesus not say be leery of those who claim to hear him in the inner room? Did not Paul claim to get his 'revelations' from Jesus (pbuh) while in prison {which is an inner room}?

Yes I’m aware of these; however I would be interested to know where you got your reference for point B (marriage to Caesar)?

God bless,

[abdullahfath]

Yes I’m aware of these; however I would be interested to know where you got your reference for point B (marriage to Caesar)?

God bless,

I have to admit that point b I cannot remember where I learned this from as I read more stuff than I remember. I am like a sponge in that sense. Can any of the brothers help me in this point?

[John Paul]

I have to admit that point b I cannot remember where I learned this from as I read more stuff than I remember. I am like a sponge in that sense. Can any of the brothers help me in this point?

At this point we must conclude point B is unsubstantiated therefore false until evidence is provided.

God bless,

[abdullahfath]

At this point we must conclude point B is unsubstantiated therefore false until evidence is provided.

God bless,

I will not say it is false until it is disproved as to do such is a known fallacy. Lack of proof does not prove falsehood. Surely you know this is a basic form of fallacy?

I will instead agree that at present moment it is a weak point as it is unproven (although it is not disproved)

[abdullahfath]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

• Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true (or false) because it has not been proven false (true) or cannot be proven false (true).^[13]

Edited by abdullahfath, 14 July 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[John Paul]

I will not say it is false until it is disproved as to do such is a known fallacy. Lack of proof does not prove falsehood. Surely you know this is a basic form of fallacy?

I will instead agree that at present moment it is a weak point as it is unproven (although it is not disproved)

I say it is false because St Paul made it quite clear that he desired to remain celebrate after receiving the gospel, so unless you show me evidence I think it’s safe to conclude your statement is false.

“Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do” – 1 Corinthians 7:8

God bless,

[abdullahfath]

a) his wife would have not been with him by the time he made this statement thus he would be living a life of celibacy
b) if you insist on sticking with the use of fallacies I must respectfully cease conversation with you because without reasonable logic being used it is all a waste of time. I have shown you using non Islamic means that the logic you are using for saying this is false is a fallacy. If you adhere to using a fallacy for one statement then how do I know that you will not do the same for others which makes me think I am likely wasting my time speaking with you.