82 replies to this topic

[SaracenSoldier]

Well, the thing that I would like to know is that the bible says these prophets above committed crimes and sins and one even committed disbelief. A person would not even want their children next to men who are drunkards(so much so that they pass out lying naked), who murder people and steal their wives, people who get drunk and sleep with their own daughters. A person would not want their kids even remotely near such men let alone follow their teachings themselves or teach it to their kids. While in the Quran God tells us these men were in fact pious and righteous and did not commit these crimes and sins and were indeed pious men of God who are role models for mankind.

Now, what I would like to know is or if someone were to ask you, what would you say to this :

Why should I trust the Bible over the Qur'an when it comes to the teachings of the Prophets(peace be upon them all)? Because In the bible they become criminals but in the Qur'an these same people are someone my kids could follow and take as role models?

[SaracenSoldier]

I have read both the Bible and Qur'an cover to cover. I am a convert from Christianity to Islam. I'm hoping to be able to pop in and out of this discussion during my time off work.

More than welcome.

[SaracenSoldier]

Also, if anyone is interested this is where these stories from the Bible are mentioned. Watch from 10:00 mins onward:

[Wesley]

52. Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom:

53. That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrongdoers are in a schism far (from the Truth):

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 22)

I hope this helps the discussion. I know the historical context but the Qur'an does not use the historical context for a purpose. This applies to all Messengers and Prophets. It doesn't take away from the Message from God. If someone is focused on Solomon having 700 wives, they should focus on less superficial facts and focus more on the spiritual nature of the Revelation. However, without reading the Book, you might not be able to understand it.

Edited by Wesley, 27 June 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[John Paul]

Well, the thing that I would like to know is that the bible says these prophets above committed crimes and sins and one even committed disbelief. A person would not even want their children next to men who are drunkards(so much so that they pass out lying naked), who murder people and steal their wives, people who get drunk and sleep with their own daughters. A person would not want their kids even remotely near such men let alone follow their teachings themselves or teach it to their kids. While in the Quran God tells us these men were in fact pious and righteous and did not commit these crimes and sins and were indeed pious men of God who are role models for mankind.

Now, what I would like to know is or if someone were to ask you, what would you say to this :

Why should I trust the Bible over the Qur'an when it comes to the teachings of the Prophets(peace be upon them all)? Because In the bible they become criminals but in the Qur'an these same people are someone my kids could follow and take as role models?

Ok let’s start with Noah, Lot and Solomon

Noah did not get drunk on purpose, we are told in scripture he was the first person to plant a vineyard and drink it’s wine. He did not know the effects of alcohol being the first to drink it.“Now Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of the wine, he became drunk and lay naked inside his tent.” – Genesis 9:20-21

Lot was raped by his daughters, he did not sleep with them wilfully. They got him drunk with wine and slept with him “The older one said to the younger: "Our father is getting old, and there is not a man on earth to unite with us as was the custom everywhere. Come, let us ply our father with wine and then lie with him, that we may have offspring by our father." So that night they plied their father with wine, and the older one went in and lay with her father; but he was not aware of her lying down or her getting up. Next day the older one said to the younger: "Last night it was I who lay with my father. Let us ply him with wine again tonight, and then you go in and lie with him, that we may both have offspring by our father." So that night, too, they plied their father with wine, and then the younger one went in and lay with him; but again he was not aware of her lying down or her getting up.” – Genesis 19:31-35

Solomon wrote the inspired writings of scripture i.e. book of proverbs etc. before he was corrupted with idol worshiping, tyranny etc.

God bless,

[John Paul]

Also, if anyone is interested this is where these stories from the Bible are mentioned. Watch from 10:00 mins onward:

That’s what happens when you’re a Protestant Christian, most Protestants don’t even know what they are protesting against, their understanding of Christianity is somewhat sketchy. It doesn’t surprise me that he embraced Islam.

[danieldemol]

The gentleman in the above post says that "the Bible says that Noah was an alcoholic", I'm going to have to ask for a reference for that.

[John Paul]

The gentleman in the above post says that "the Bible says that Noah was an alcoholic", I'm going to have to ask for a reference for that.

You see? It’s no surprise he embraced Islam since he does not know the bible or Christian faith well...

God bless,

[SaracenSoldier]

Genesis Chapter 9 Verses, 20-25. Just do a quick google search about the rest of what he mentions. You will find them and reference for it in the bible.

[danieldemol]

I got from 10:00 till 23:00, at this point he had been dwelling on the Gospel for sometime, so can somebody with the time either pinpoint where in the video this gentleman refers to Solomon or otherwise fill me in, I really see no value in watching 1 hour and 10min worth of non-relevance to find the answer to a question which can be answered in this much space: Book X Chapter XX Verse XX.

Kind regards.

[danieldemol]

9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

(King James Bible, Genesis)

So the Bible clearly states that His holiness Noah did not know the effect this would have, and that when He found out He cursed his own son, and you are ######erting this states that he was an alcoholic (ie a person addicted to wine)?

[danieldemol]

a-s-s-erting

[Saracen21stC]

So the Bible clearly states that His holiness Noah did not know the effect this would have, and that when He found out He cursed his own son, and you are ######erting this states that he was an alcoholic (ie a person addicted to wine)?

Which verse clearly states that Noah did not know the effect this would have?

And where did SaracenSoldier assert that Noah was alcoholic?

[danieldemol]

9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him

I see that as saying that when Noah sobered, He realised what "His younger son" had done to Him as opposed to Noah willfuly doing it to Himself.

I didn't say Saracen soldier, although I understand how this confusion arose. I meant to say the gentleman *in the youtube clip* in the above post said it, but since you appear not to have watched the clip I can understand why the misunderstanding.

[danieldemol]

Are all of the above mentioned things contrary to the Qur'an, for example, does the Qur'an ######ert that Solomon did not have more than 1 wife?

[danieldemol]

lets try an alternative, does the Qur'an insist that Solomon did not have more than 1 wife?

[danieldemol]

Oh righto, I get what you are saying, perhaps it was the sequence.

I asked where the reference was for the youtube clip's ######ertion that "the Bible says that Noah was an alcoholic"

To which I thought Saracen Soldier was replying when he said, "Genesis Chapter 9 Verses, 20-25". I guess I'll have to go back and work out what he was really answering with that.

[John Paul]

Genesis Chapter 9 Verses, 20-25. Just do a quick google search about the rest of what he mentions. You will find them and reference for it in the bible.

An alcoholic by definition is a frequent drunkard. Do you see anywhere in the p######age you cited that suggests Noah was a frequent drunkard?

God bless,

[Saracen21stC]

9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him

I see that as saying that when Noah sobered, He realised what "His younger son" had done to Him as opposed to Noah willfuly doing it to Himself.

But verse 9.22 says

9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

What this means is that he did not cover the nakedness of his father, instead just told his brothers about this. Canaan was cursed due this as later on Noah found out who covered the nakedness and who did not . That verse 9.24 did not say anything about tricking someone into drinking wine. It's rather related to verse 9.22-9.23

[danieldemol]

Fair enough. But does it say in the Qur'an that Noah did not drink?