7 replies to this topic

[vodkani]

Greetings to all. I have 3 questions that I need answers for. My questions will be questioning the psychology and morality of religion and prophets. If these are offensive and you cannot allow yourself to have an intellectual discussion in these areas, please press back now. If you are willing to discuss the following questions, please feel free, I would be greatful to read what you all have to say, women, men, young, old, it doesn't matter. I have searched for the answers to many questions like these for a long time, but have never found a logical answer. So I thought I'd give the Islamic forums a try.


My questions are as follows:

1. Imagine you are a father (if you are not already one) and you have two children. A boy, and a girl. They are playing in their play area, laughing, having fun. You go over to them and you leave some poisonous berries on the floor next to them but you tell them that under no circumstances are they allowed to eat them! You then leave the room, go for a walk, and come back 10 minutes later. Upon your return you realize that your children have ate the berries and have fallen ill. You rush them to the emergency room, and while they make a recovery, they have illnesses that will plague them for life. Constant bleeding, disease, and so on.

Who's fault is this. Yours or your children?

Most people will obviously think "it's my fault of course". Those who blamed the kids, all I can say is please use contraception

The question is simply why is it that such a careless and neglegent act is automatically seen as wrong when it involves us, but when god does it to Adam and Eve in the garden of eden by putting a poisonous apple tree there, it's acceptable?


2. In the battle of Khaybar (629 AD) the Muslim army attacked this Jewish town and killed around a 100 people before capturing the town. Muhammad, who was 57 at the time, married a 17 year old girl by the name of Sufiya, on the same night that the Muslims had won the battle. Now I know the age difference here is huge but that's not the issue, child marriage is common in Arabian culture so we'll ignore that. The issue here that's a little confusing is that Sufiya had a husband, a father, and even a brother. All three were killed that same day, when the Muslims attacked. Some sources say that her husband was first tortured, then beheaded.

A second girl by the name of Jawariya was also taken as a slave/concubine by the Arab hordes, so she came to Muhammad and said that she and her relatives had been taken as slaves and she heard that he might be able to help her. Muhammad replied with you can be my wife, or remain as you are. She chose to be his wife.

So the question here is how can you, a Muslim, explain that god's greatest prophet, married a young girl on the same day that her father, brother and husband were killed?

Bare in mind these girls would have all been taken as slaves by the Arab soldiers and no doubt raped, so why would the greatest prophet of god give them only these two choices? Slave or wife?


3. A few thousand years after god created man and woman in the garden of eden with a poisonous apple tree and talking snake, he became angry with man, I guess we weren't following orders or something. Anyway, he sends a great flood that kills every living thing on earth except for one man and his family and one male and female of every species of animal.

Question is what did the innocents animals do to deserve being killed? I don't mean the two crocodiles or two elephants that actually made it on the boat, I mean all the thousands or millions of other animals that were alive. Why did god kill them too?

4. The verse about beating wives in Surah Al-Nisa. Please can someone give some clarification of what these verse means, when and where it is ok to hit a wife, and any other details a non-Muslim should know about this verse in the Quran.


Thanks for your time if you got this far, looking forward to the replies.

[SaracenSoldier]

1. Imagine you are a father (if you are not already one) and you have two children. A boy, and a girl. They are playing in their play area, laughing, having fun. You go over to them and you leave some poisonous berries on the floor next to them but you tell them that under no circumstances are they allowed to eat them! You then leave the room, go for a walk, and come back 10 minutes later. Upon your return you realize that your children have ate the berries and have fallen ill. You rush them to the emergency room, and while they make a recovery, they have illnesses that will plague them for life. Constant bleeding, disease, and so on.

Who's fault is this. Yours or your children?

Most people will obviously think "it's my fault of course". Those who blamed the kids, all I can say is please use contraception

The question is simply why is it that such a careless and neglegent act is automatically seen as wrong when it involves us, but when god does it to Adam and Eve in the garden of eden by putting a poisonous apple tree there, it's acceptable?

Firstly, there is no evidence to say whether the tree was an apple tree or a banana tree, etc. We do not know what tree it was. Secondly, the tree(or its fruits) were not poisonous. It was just a test from Allah. Adam and Ha'wa(as) made a mistake and then they repented and Allah forgave them for it.

Also, Adam(as) was no child at the time. Your analogy isn't accurate. A child has no knowledge of what is right and wrong, good and bad. But Adam(as) did. He was told Satan is your enemy and do not eat from the tree. However, since he has never experienced how Satan deceives people he made a mistake. But Allah forgave him for it. So no big deal. And now Adam(as) and Ha'wa are both inshAllah in Paradise forever enjoying eternal bliss and happiness. For eternity. Sounds MORE than fair.

2. In the battle of Khaybar (629 AD) the Muslim army attacked this Jewish town and killed around a 100 people before capturing the town. Muhammad, who was 57 at the time, married a 17 year old girl by the name of Sufiya, on the same night that the Muslims had won the battle. Now I know the age difference here is huge but that's not the issue, child marriage is common in Arabian culture so we'll ignore that. The issue here that's a little confusing is that Sufiya had a husband, a father, and even a brother. All three were killed that same day, when the Muslims attacked. Some sources say that her husband was first tortured, then beheaded.

A second girl by the name of Jawariya was also taken as a slave/concubine by the Arab hordes, so she came to Muhammad and said that she and her relatives had been taken as slaves and she heard that he might be able to help her. Muhammad replied with you can be my wife, or remain as you are. She chose to be his wife.

So the question here is how can you, a Muslim, explain that god's greatest prophet, married a young girl on the same day that her father, brother and husband were killed?

Bare in mind these girls would have all been taken as slaves by the Arab soldiers and no doubt raped, so why would the greatest prophet of god give them only these two choices? Slave or wife?

I would first like to see some references to the ahadeeth that mention this event before I comment. I just want to make sure we have the authentic story before we move forward as some of the tings you have mentioned about Adam and Eve(as) aren't exactly authentic.

3. A few thousand years after god created man and woman in the garden of eden with a poisonous apple tree and talking snake, he became angry with man, I guess we weren't following orders or something. Anyway, he sends a great flood that kills every living thing on earth except for one man and his family and one male and female of every species of animal.

Question is what did the innocents animals do to deserve being killed? I don't mean the two crocodiles or two elephants that actually made it on the boat, I mean all the thousands or millions of other animals that were alive. Why did god kill them too?

I think you have read the bible and not the Quran. Are you sure you are ex-Muslim? Anyway, right off the bat: No apple tree and no talking snake. Unless you can show me authentic ahadeeth or verses from the Quran that prove otherwise. As for the animals, well they are Allah's creation that He(swt) can do what he wants with them. They have no reckoning or judgement in the hereafter. One could ask why do animals kill each other today? Why not make them all grass eaters? But then why harm the grass? Why do we humans kill animals? Why do you eat an animal? Why eat beef or chicken? What did the animal do to you?

This is how Allah has made the world and these are the laws that are in place.

4. The verse about beating wives in Surah Al-Nisa. Please can someone give some clarification of what these verse means, when and where it is ok to hit a wife, and any other details a non-Muslim should know about this verse in the Quran.

I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer that.

[Saracen21stC]

Greetings to all. I have 3 questions that I need answers for. My questions will be questioning the psychology and morality of religion and prophets. If these are offensive and you cannot allow yourself to have an intellectual discussion in these areas, please press back now. If you are willing to discuss the following questions, please feel free, I would be greatful to read what you all have to say, women, men, young, old, it doesn't matter. I have searched for the answers to many questions like these for a long time, but have never found a logical answer. So I thought I'd give the Islamic forums a try.

4. The verse about beating wives in Surah Al-Nisa. Please can someone give some clarification of what these verse means, when and where it is ok to hit a wife, and any other details a non-Muslim should know about this verse in the Quran.


Thanks for your time if you got this far, looking forward to the replies.

I am glad that you are asking questions and showing eagerness to learn. I am very confident other Muslims will try to answer your Questions. I will also try to answer questions if there are some points to make. But for now, I will leave this to my other Muslim brothers and sisters.

But here is a related thread for Question number 4 - http://www.gawaher.c...riking-a-woman/

[Absolute truth]

I think you have read the bible and not the Quran. Are you sure you are ex-Muslim? Anyway, right off the bat: No apple tree and no talking snake.

Exactly

[Younes]

On Safiyyah (ra):

http://www.bismikaal.../#footnote_4_29

On Juwariyya (ra):

Juwayriyya bint Harith, may Allah be pleased with her, married the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in 5 AH, when the Prophet was fifty-eight years old and she was twenty, not long after his marriage to Zaynab bint Jahsh, and as a result of the Muslims ' successful campaign against the Banu Mustaliq who were swiftly defeated after the Prophet's surprise attack. Among the captives taken in this campaign was the beautiful Juwayriyya, the daughter of al-Harith, who was the chief of the Banu Mustaliq. She was afraid that once the Muslims realized who she was, they would demand an exorbitant ransom for her safe release. After the Muslims had returned to Medina with their booty and prisoners, she demanded to see the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) hoping that he would help to prevent what she feared. Seeing how beautiful she was, A'isha was not keen on her seeing the Prophet.
But she persisted, and eventually she was permitted to see the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and was taken to him while he was with A'isha. After she had finished speaking, the Prophet thought for a moment, and then said, "Shall I tell you what would be better than this?"
He then asked her to marry him, and she immediately accepted. Although Juwayriyya was young and beautiful and of noble lineage, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was thinking of how to save her and all her tribe from an ignoble fate. By marrying Juwayriyya, the Banu Mustaliq would be able to enter Islam with honor, and with the humiliation of their recent defeat removed, so that it would no longer be felt necessary by them to embark on a war of vengeance that would have continued until one of the two parties had been annihilated. As soon as the marriage was announced, all the booty that had been taken from the Banu Mustaliq was returned, and all the captives were set free, for they were now the in laws of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Thus A'isha once said of Juwayriyya, "I know of no woman who was more of a blessing to her people than Juwayriyya bint al-Harith." After they were married, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) changed her name was Barra to Juwayriyya.

http://www.islamawar...thir_wives.html

So in short, Safiyyah (ra) was given the choice to be free or to get married to him. As for Juwariyyah (ra), it was a pragmatic marriage which brought a lot of good.

[Younes]

The question is simply why is it that such a careless and neglegent act is automatically seen as wrong when it involves us, but when god does it to Adam and Eve in the garden of eden by putting a poisonous apple tree there, it's acceptable?

(21:23). He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned.

Because God's rights over us are different from our rights and God is different from us.

[AHMAD_73]

1. Imagine you are a father (if you are not already one) and you have two children. A boy, and a girl. They are playing in their play area, laughing, having fun. You go over to them and you leave some poisonous berries on the floor next to them but you tell them that under no circumstances are they allowed to eat them! You then leave the room, go for a walk, and come back 10 minutes later. Upon your return you realize that your children have ate the berries and have fallen ill. You rush them to the emergency room, and while they make a recovery, they have illnesses that will plague them for life. Constant bleeding, disease, and so on.

Who's fault is this. Yours or your children?

Most people will obviously think "it's my fault of course". Those who blamed the kids, all I can say is please use contraception

The question is simply why is it that such a careless and neglegent act is automatically seen as wrong when it involves us, but when god does it to Adam and Eve in the garden of eden by putting a poisonous apple tree there, it's acceptable?

as Muslems, we believe we been created to live on earth in a limited test time and then we will be judjed before Allah about our believes and actions, Allah tells in the Quran 002.030 Y: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth."

Allah allowed our parents Adam and Eve to live a period of time in the paradise to teach them some lessons that will ease their life on earth, OJT, On Job Training. for example to teach them to keep away from "Arrogance", that caused the Satan to disobey Allah and then being out of Allah's mercy. another lesson which is "following Allah's orders even if we are not fully know the wisdom behind it", and fighting curisity in such direction that may lead us to harm ourselves and/or others. to teach them the principle of "crime and punishment"............these lessons helped them and us to organize and improve our life on earth.

2. In the battle of Khaybar (629 AD) the Muslim army attacked this Jewish town and killed around a 100 people before capturing the town. Muhammad, who was 57 at the time, married a 17 year old girl by the name of Sufiya, on the same night that the Muslims had won the battle. Now I know the age difference here is huge but that's not the issue, child marriage is common in Arabian culture so we'll ignore that. The issue here that's a little confusing is that Sufiya had a husband, a father, and even a brother. All three were killed that same day, when the Muslims attacked. Some sources say that her husband was first tortured, then beheaded.

A second girl by the name of Jawariya was also taken as a slave/concubine by the Arab hordes, so she came to Muhammad and said that she and her relatives had been taken as slaves and she heard that he might be able to help her. Muhammad replied with you can be my wife, or remain as you are. She chose to be his wife.

So the question here is how can you, a Muslim, explain that god's greatest prophet, married a young girl on the same day that her father, brother and husband were killed?

Bare in mind these girls would have all been taken as slaves by the Arab soldiers and no doubt raped, so why would the greatest prophet of god give them only these two choices? Slave or wife?

you need to provide your sources first

3. A few thousand years after god created man and woman in the garden of eden with a poisonous apple tree and talking snake, he became angry with man, I guess we weren't following orders or something. Anyway, he sends a great flood that kills every living thing on earth except for one man and his family and one male and female of every species of animal.

Question is what did the innocents animals do to deserve being killed? I don't mean the two crocodiles or two elephants that actually made it on the boat, I mean all the thousands or millions of other animals that were alive. Why did god kill them too?

first we don't believe that Allah killed every single life on earth, but mostly that was in the local area and for local tribe and local animals too. second as you know animals are different from human, they don't have the long time feelings we have, while mostly few minutes or few hours and they will forget about what happened. you kill them and we slaughter them and feed on them, that's what Allah decreed on them.

[Wesley]

I finally wanted to take an attempt at your questions. I wanted to start with Noah and flood since this is one of the first stories from the Bible that I remember as a child. I, too, found this to be shocking. I won't go down the path you were looking for as, to be honest, the details you seek are not in any of the current Books. The Old Testament/Torah does not describe the condition of other animals or even stated if the message of Noah was for all mankind or just the people around Him. We are unable to go back to that time and relive literal history. It is compelling though.

I do want to focus on a possible symbolism of the events which could still be relevant today. Take the Ark which Noah and the others used to seek refuge. The Ark demonstrates the promise God made and those who went into it believed in this promise. They believed they would be safe from the flood of sin which was overwhelming the world. You can see later in the Torah that Moses commanded the people to build a different type of Ark. This, too, was a promise from God and a place for the people to worship and seek refuge through God's salvation. The Ark, or the covenant of God, was one of the most central tenants to the practice of religion at this time.

Even today, we need to be aware (if we choose to be) of what God's promise is to us. What is the Ark for today? Will we seek refuge in the promises of God or choose to live in the flood of sin?

To relate one example of this symbolism in the Bible, I want to point to the words of Jesus.

24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

God promised the flood would not happen again, yet Jesus much much later relates His second coming in the language of Noah. In this case, we know the flood is more of a symbolic instance rather than a literal happening.

I hope this helps in that it shows there may be multiple pathways to understanding if you are interested in going down that path.